Attribute Prioritization

[Bushranger]

First I would like to say that attribute prioritization has been an excellent addition to the game. Three thumbs up! It has really aided in character creation and tailoring characters to the vision a player has for them.

Secondly, I had something odd happen. At least something I thought was odd. When I created my character I entered my attribute priorities as such:

Attribute A
Attribute B
Attribute C
Attribute D

Highest to lowest, exact attributes are unimportant in this example[/list]
When my character rolled his attributes while moving from the Hall of Kings into the IC world they ended up looking like this:

Attribute A
Attribute D
Attribute C
Attribute B

Am I wrong in believing that this shouldn't happen? Or do I not understand the code correctly? I'll also mention I'm quite happy playing the character as is, and am not fishing for any changes. I'm just curious about the mechanics.

Bushranger.

[flurry]

Modifiers, like for age and guild, are applied after the fact.  So that can definitely happen.

[X-D]

Also, as has been pointed out before. The word title to the stat may be the same but that does not mean it is the same number.

IE Very good strength on an elf is NOT the same number as Very good agi.

SO, you could have a higher number on a stat but still have a lower word.

[jstorrie]

It's likely that the guild you chose valued stat D above stat B. Flurry's post, above, is mostly-on-point–race choice won't alter your stat preferences, though, because the stat words are relative to your racial averages. Age is a factor only really for young PCs (who tend to end up with wicked agility and shit in everything else, no matter what stat order you assign.)

It's probably nonkosher for me to offer my direct speculation on which guilds get which stats, but I've found a general rule of thumb is that fighting guilds get higher physical stats, casters/casterlikes/merchants get higher wisdom, sneaky guilds get higher agility and sometimes higher wisdom or strength based on what bent of sneakitude they specialize in, and jack-of-all-trades guilds get jack-of-all-trades stats. The different flavours of templar probably get appropriate stat adjustments as well, and who knows what sort of stats super-sekrit undocumented guilds get.

If you are aiming to get a certain stat combination in order to match up with your character concept, you might want to take the guild adjustments into account–it's difficult to get a feeble warrior, no matter what stat order you put in. Then again, I have a feeling the imms are only too happy to offer stat deductions to anyone who requests them, so don't get too wrapped up in minutiae.

[Coat of Arms]

Stats are affected by a lot of things that can change the order that you chose at creation. When you prioritize your stats, you simply choose which order your original dice rolls will be. Example:

You might pick (first) endurance->strength->wisdom->agility (last). If the character you made was a 16 year old human warrior, it might end up like this:

Agility (big bonus for being young)
Endurance (small penalty for being young, small bonus for warrior)
Strength (big penalty for being young, small bonus for warrior)
Wisdom (penalty for being young)
(these bonuses are not necessarily accurate)


Once, before stat ordering, I made a character who was maximum age. I think it's 56 or something. Despite being a warrior, the character had poor in all three physical stats, and average wisdom. Age, race, guild and even size matters.

[jstorrie]

Race doesn't matter. The descriptive terms you get are relative to your race. The average elf has average, average, average, average, it's just that some of his averages are different than human averages.

I have never seen my weight/height affect which stats I get, though I believe they are taken into account for armor sizing and for certain other skills and checks.

Guild and age are basically the only teo things that will unorder your prioritization.

[X-D]

Race DOES matter jstorrie

Because Though you are correct on the descriptive terms being based on race.

Stat ordering does NOT work on descriptive terms but instead, hard numbers.


SO, if you have say a HG, and you order str/agi/end/wis

and you roll and the orders are 20/15/10/8

BUT 8 is AI wis for a halfgiant and 20 is poor str for a halfgiant it will SEEM that the order was changed.

And that is exactly how this...

Secondly, I had something odd happen. At least something I thought was odd. When I created my character I entered my attribute priorities as such:

Attribute A
Attribute B
Attribute C
Attribute D
Highest to lowest, exact attributes are unimportant in this example

When my character rolled his attributes while moving from the Hall of Kings into the IC world they ended up looking like this:

Attribute A
Attribute D
Attribute C
Attribute B

happens.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I rolled up an adult human warrior.

I ordered my physical stats A > B > C.

I ended up with B > A = C.

[Morgenes]

I rolled up an adult human warrior.

I ordered my physical stats A > B > C.

I ended up with B > A = C.

Your attributes ended up rolling very close to each other.  When it got modified for age, it appears that your B attribute got pushed slightly higher than A and C. 

We can only do so much with attribute prioritization.  Glitches like this can and will happen.  It's still a far sight better than the random that was before.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Oh, random stats.

This warrior-type looks pretty big and beefy and stupid.

AI wisdom. Poor strength. 

[mansa]

I blame Morgenes.

*shakes fist*

[Malken]

I'm still pretty sure that if you put strength as your first stat, you'll never end up with poor in it. (Of course, that's following the logical part that you don't apply for a sixty years old warrior.)

[Throttle]

If all of your stats roll low enough to be poor and the age/guild/size bonuses of your character do not boost your strength up enough, you might end up with poor strength. I suspect that the warrior class probably gets a bonus to strength that is high enough for humans to never actually end up with poor unless they start at old age, but I believe some of the races with a larger strength scale can. But I've only ever heard of one person who rolled 4*poor, it's probably as likely as rolling 4*exceptional.

[Ghost]

But I've only ever heard of one person who rolled 4*poor, it's probably as likely as rolling 4*exceptional.

murphy rules say you are wrong

[Throttle]

Murphy is not the boss of me!

[jstorrie]

Stat ordering does NOT work on descriptive terms but instead, hard numbers.

Proof? This doesn't seem like a reasonable way to have coded the system. If this was the way the system really was, prioritizing a stat that your race receives a penalty to would mean that you would get lower stats overall, and vice versa. Which doesn't seem at all like something that would have been intended.

[manonfire]

I'd still love to see a distributed point system for stats.. Kinda like the greatest game ever, Fallout 

[Morgenes]

Stat ordering does NOT work on descriptive terms but instead, hard numbers.

Proof? This doesn't seem like a reasonable way to have coded the system. If this was the way the system really was, prioritizing a stat that your race receives a penalty to would mean that you would get lower stats overall, and vice versa. Which doesn't seem at all like something that would have been intended.

Stat ordering works by rolling four percentiles and ordering them across your attributes.  That percentile is distributed over the race's range for the given attribute.

Using terms from a popular role playing game, a human has a range of 3-18 in all ability scores.  We would roll a d100 for each score, and interpolate that percent within the range of 3-18.  So if you rolled a 1% for an attribute, you would end up with a 3 in the attribute.  If you rolled 100% you would have an 18.  if you rolled 50% you would get a 10.

After we've done that for each attribute, we adjust based on your age (and different races have different scales for how age affects stats) and based on your guild.

There's your proof that it's based off hard numbers and not descriptions, and a pretty big look into the cogs of how the Attribute Prioritization system works.

[mansa]

I blame Morgenes.

*shakes fist*

[jstorrie]

I'm going to sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but that's kind of what I meant–that you'd get a poor or an average or an AI or whatever (in percentile terms) and then those would be applied to your race's natural spread. So your choice of race shouldn't affect what the 'descriptives' look like in the end, right?

[flurry]

The way X-D described it, it makes it sound like not only the percentiles are being shuffled around, but the racial modifiers are too.  As jstorrie points out, that would introduce some serious problems into the sytem.  If it worked that way, an elf's agility bonus could be effectively reshuffled to a strength bonus.

Enough beating a dead kank, though, since Morgenes' clarifies the situation.

On a side note, I think the situation the OP describes has to happen sometimes, or else you could basically circumvent the appropriate age penalties (i.e. order however you want, but you're not likely to get a senior citizen with the agility of an adolescent).

[Pale Horse]

EDIT: After once again looking over what's been previously posted, others have said the same thing as I, but with much fewer words.  Feel free to skip my post.

From what's been said, it seems to me that the stat allocation seems to be like this (Disclaimer:  All the following numbers and "data" are in my own opinion.  I have no idea what the actual code is like.  Also, my math skills are dismal, so yes, things are going to be off):

Race: Elf
Age: 21

Stat priority: Agility, Endurance, Strength, Wisdom

The stats are rolled based off of the racial scale for "Elf", which runs from a scale of 1-20:
Strength: 2-15
Endurance: 2-15
Agility: 5-19
Wisdom: 5-19

For perspective, Human scale is like this:
Strength: 3-17
Endurance: 3-17
Agility: 3-17
Wisdom: 3-17

Our Elf ends up with the following "hard numbers", from the percentile rolled in her scale:
Strength: 14
Endurance: 15
Agility: 17
Wisdom: 14

Now, the age and guild modifiers are taken into account.  She's 21, and let's say her guild is Ranger.  Since 21 means roughly 18 or so for an elf, that makes her fairly young, so her stats are modified as such:
Strength: 14 - 13
Endurance: 15 - 14
Agility: 17 - 18
Wisdom: 14

Her strength and endurance went down due to age, but not by much, as she's nearing adulthood and isn't a babe.  Her agility went up for the same reason, but her wisdom stayed the same, as she's nearing the point where her "intellect" will reach the level it will have for most of her adult life.  Next comes the modifications for guild.  As she's a ranger and an outdoorsy combat guild, she gets a boost to endurance and agility, popping her constitution back up to what it was, and further increasing her agility.  In the end, her stats are as followed:
ST: 13
EN: 15
AG: 19
WS: 14

Descriptive wise, they are: Very Good, Absolutely Incredible, Absolutely Incredible, Above Average.

She ended up with Stats that followed her priority, but read as having two of them be the same, due to her race, age and guild modifiers.  For an Elf, that 15 is absolutely incredible.  A human with the same age and guild and stats and priority would read as: Above Average, Very Good, Absolutely Incredible (Knocked down to 17, due to racial limit), Very Good, due to the fact that her racial scale is different.

[jstorrie]

Shouldn't the human with the same race, guild, age (scaled for racial limits) and priorities come out with the exact same descriptives? If stats were rolled as a percentile which was then applied to the racial range, and descriptives are based on where in the percentile you land, the descriptives should be essentially race-independent.

[Pale Horse]

Shouldn't the human with the same race, guild, age (scaled for racial limits) and priorities come out with the exact same descriptives? If stats were rolled as a percentile which was then applied to the racial range, and descriptives are based on where in the percentile you land, the descriptives should be essentially race-independent.

Theoretically, yes.  But, that human had the same hard numbers as that elf.  So, what her percentage ended up being in the beginning to get those numbers, was different from what the elf's had been.  I was using the human as a comparison and not a "clone" of the elf, although I can see how my wording could lead you to think that.

[Dan]

I wonder how well a system like this would work...

You begin by choosing which stat order you want. Strength, Wisdom, Agility, Endurance for an example.

The game will roll up random stat points between the four and then modifiers will be put in place from age, size, guild. You'll not know where they stand at this point.

Now you have another random stack of points you can allocate how you wish. Once you add in your points it then gives you your standing. It may even be random, such as the game rolls you three extra modifiers which are +3, +4, and +1.

So at the beginning:
Strength: 12
Wisdom: 9
Agility: 15
Endurance: 8

-becomes-

Stat preference:
Strength: 15
Wisdom: 12
Agility: 9
Endurance: 8

Then modifiers are added making your stats look like this:

Strength: 13
Wisdom: 14
Agility: 8
Endurance: 10

Now you have the additional randomly rolled modifiers you can put in place-

Strength: 16
Wisdom: 17
Agility: 9
Endurance: 10


This system allows for some further customization while still ensuring a random element to what stats you end up with. It isn't the exact preference, but your never going to end up with poor strength if it is your first in line. Ever.

[jstorrie]

Too grainy, I think. I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Too grainy, I think. I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

I'd like to see this change as well.  Not only for fighting classes, but across the board.  For instance, wisdom might not be the only stat fully important to a mage any longer - maybe some spells could depend or receive bonuses from some of the other stats.  This would help create more variety in characters, especially skilled characters.  And variety can only lead to a richer game world in terms of RP.

[Salt Merchant]

Why only four stats? Why not a fifth one that represents the senses, namely perception?

[Dalmeth]

Why only four stats? Why not a fifth one that represents the senses, namely perception?

Shouldn't wisdom cover that?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

I agree with this nearly whole-heartedly. What I would like to see, though, is the ability to shift stats, for instance, during the same timer that the newbie death and reroll share:

Code Select Expand


Your strength is good, your wisdom is good, your agility is good, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +1 strength, -1 agility
You have two more chances to change your stats within the next two hours.
Stats changed.

Your strength is very good, your wisdom is good, your agility is above average, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +1 strength, -1 wisdom
You have one more chance to change your stats within the next 1 hour, 57 minutes.
Stats changed.

Your strength is extremely good, your wisdom is above average, your agility is average, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +3 strength, -2 agility, -1 endurance
You have used all of your chances to change your stats.
Stats changed.

Your strength is absolutely incredible, your wisdom is good, your agility is poor, and your endurance is average.


[Troicha]

I agree with 7DV, except that you should only be able to change the prioritization, instead of the raw numbers. The guild/race modifiers and the rolled numbers stay the same.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with 7DV, except that you should only be able to change the prioritization, instead of the raw numbers. The guild/race modifiers and the rolled numbers stay the same.

That you can already do. I believe that when you type reroll, you can input the stats in the order of priority already. I'd rather ... honestly, I would ... dammit. I don't care. but I like my idea. Fuck rationalization. *grin*

[lurkus ignoramus]

So, there are other players uncomfortable with the idea of players messing with actual numbers?

That said, has anyone else ever been annoyed with the vagueness of Arm's stat system?

Why are there only four stats, and why do they each cover multiple areas?

Perhaps a more precise system would be preferable?

STRENGTH determines how hard a player hits and how much they can lift?
ENDURANCE determines the amount one tires?
CONSTITUTION determines the amount of damage a character can take?
WISDOM determines the amount of mana a player can channel?
WILLPOWER determines mental fortitude for psionics, etcetera?
INTELLIGENCE determines rate of learning, etc?
AGILITY effects movement speed, combat, climbing, etc?
DEXTERITY effects crafting, pick pocketing, other skills?
CHARISMA effects reputation, etc?

Would more stats lead to more character diversity?

What are the detrimental aspects of introducing more stats?

[Qzzrbl]

How could reputation be hard-coded into something that justifies it having it's own stat?

[lurkus ignoramus]

Like in the Elder Scroll games?

Reputation:

A character can increase/decrease their relationship with a particular location by significant interactions (link to an Oblivion type system that has been proposed removed).

Caravans can be attacked by other PCs. Taking down wagons is a considerable undertaking and should require at least three or four experienced PCs working together. Caravans can be disabled, in which case they are destroyed but can have their material salvaged. They can also be shanghaied, which is considerably more difficult and requires either someone on the inside or someone capable of leaping off their mount onto the caravan and fighting their way inside.

When a PC raids a caravan, they acquire negative reputation in both of the cities the wagon's route is between. Negative reputation can affect shop and service prices, the willingness of caravans to carry a PC, and if great enough, may lead to a PC being outlawed from a location.

PCs can be hired as caravan guards if they have a positive reputation with the location that the caravan is leaving from.

It has been stated several places that reputation will be used in lieu of the current criminal code, etc...

Does it make sense that a character written as a beautiful street urchin should have a reputation bonus to interactions?

Shouldn't a beautiful upper-class character have some coded way to effect interactions that gives them a bonus (or detriment in places like the labyrinth) based on their IC looks?

Likewise, wouldn't it make sense if some really hideously mutated freak got more negative reactions from shopkeepers, etc?

[Maybe42or54]

No, I would like the stats to evolve into a system with 32 different things, seperated into 4 groups that mean the same exact damn thing. New players will have an even harder time because now, the stats themselves make no sense.


Did you steal this from another game? Sounds to forced to me.

Wisdom and intelligence sound like the same thing.
Willpower and Endurance are also, but used in different circumstances.
Endurance, strength, wisdom play too much into constitution for constitution to be its own stat IMHO.
Agility and Dexterity are also.
Charisma makes no sense in a game like Armageddon. I can badmouth the merchant in front of his face and he wont recognize it, while still giving me a bonus because I'm pretty? It will encourage tooo many cute players and the game will lose harshness.

No thank you.

[staggerlee]

I'd love a system where we don't have to look at/worry about our stats and could take the cards we're dealt and go about life.
It'd require trusting the staff and accepting that life isn't fair, but I think the game would be more fun for it.

[Maybe42or54]

It has been stated several places that reputation will be used in lieu of the current criminal code, etc...

Does it make sense that a character written as a beautiful street urchin should have a reputation bonus to interactions?

Shouldn't a beautiful upper-class character have some coded way to effect interactions that gives them a bonus (or detriment in places like the labyrinth) based on their IC looks?

Likewise, wouldn't it make sense if some really hideously mutated freak got more negative reactions from shopkeepers, etc?

Beautiful street urchin? How many are like that? How many merchants would risk not being able to buy water so a little unkempt kid can get a discount on rat meat? Not many.

Beautiful upper-class characters should give them a bonus because they are upper class and they deserve it. Not because someone is throwing RL beauty into a game where most people are probably not going to be RL pretty.

[lurkus ignoramus]

Beautiful street urchin? How many are like that?

Maybe one out of a dozen that some upper-class pervert is picking through to buy his next sex slave?

Is it really appropriate to attack this aspect of the idea?

Did you steal this from another game? Sounds to forced to me.

Maybe I doubled the current stats for symmetry, but aren't there important distinctions between some of these proposed stats?

Wisdom and intelligence sound like the same thing.

Could wisdom have to do with (soft) learning caps and mana, while intelligence deals with rate of learning?

Willpower and Endurance are also, but used in different circumstances.

Wouldn't the distinction allow for characters or races that were physically weak but mentally strong?

Likewise, wouldn't it allow for brutishly strong characters that were mentally weak?

Endurance, strength, wisdom play too much into constitution for constitution to be its own stat IMHO.
Agility and Dexterity are also.

Could stats be grouped to effect one another?

Do weight lifters have the same stats as marathon runners?

Are agility and dexterity really that related?

Can you not be incredibly dexterous -sewing, playing guitar, or painting on pin-heads- while simultaneously paraplegic?

Are paraplegics agile?

Charisma makes no sense in a game like Armageddon. I can badmouth the merchant in front of his face and he wont recognize it, while still giving me a bonus because I'm pretty? It will encourage tooo many cute players and the game will lose harshness.

Does charisma -have- to equal beauty?

Should you be able to bad-mouth the merchant?

Shouldn't some stat effect reputation?

Wouldn't it be nice to see f-mes and other unnaturally beautiful PCs sacrifice some other stats to give charisma priority?

[X-D]

Actually...Agility and dex are not the same thing...And is in fact the ONLY stat in arm that bUGS  the shit out of me. One Agility, requires strength. The other does not.  An agile person Must be fit enough and have enough muscle to BE agile. But you can be weak as a kitten and still be dextrouse.

IG though, they are considered one and the same. So...you see PCs with AI agi and poor strength...Not even strong enough to EP a sparring dagger, Still somehow strong enough to do flying ninja tricks and move the entire body fast enough to avoid blows and climb  walls with ease.

I for one would love to see Dex added and agility be more strongly linked to str and enc.

Oh...and I'm still against stat ordering/arranging/placing bonus numbers...bleh

[Maybe42or54]

Without getting too in to specifics, Agile mind and Agile feet are not the same as a Dextrous Mind and Dextrous feet?
Mentally Agile. Dextrous Fingers.

It is the same to me. If the place wants mentally quick and physically quick to be different stats, then so be it, but I don't think we should have more then 6 stats. Too much to me after 6.

[lurkus ignoramus]

How does that relate to agility and dexterity as stats in a role playing game?

Doesn't it make sense to separate a character's proficiency at movement of the whole body vs. deft movement of the hands?

Why would one be directly linked to the other?

[LittleLostThief]

Like in real life, there is a holy trinity that governs most physical endeavors.

Strength, Speed, and Skill.

Though you must be at least slightly fit to have speed, you do not necessarily have to be strong to possess it.  I personally have a below average strength for a human, but I consider myself at least very good in agility. 

You could easily wind up with one or two of these attributes and be pretty awesome at the things that you want to do.

But people that have all three will always p00n you.

[Only He Stands There]

Whatever occurs, please limit the number of stats to something below, at the very most, eight.

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

The current four to a maximum of eight, please. Any more is too much.

[Malken]

Whatever occurs, please limit the number of stats to something below, at the very most, eight.

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

The current four to a maximum of eight, please. Any more is too much.

I know that not many are going to agree with me, and that we can argue forever about this, but I don't think it's "fair" that combat-oriented classes need to have and use three out of the four stats, when magick-oriented classes really just need wisdom and we all know that prioritizing wisdom will always give you at a minimum very good+

I'd like for the magick classes to have some sort of "magick" stat, since magick is not something you learn, it's in you. So, SOI and HL uses Aura.. I think that magick classes should have something like that as well, to define their mana and how fast they regenerate, and wisdom would be what wisdom already is, minus the mana part..

I know that some are going to tell me that agility, or strength or whatever is very important to them when they play a magicker, but c'mon.

And hey, they made -me- prioritize comeliness when I was playing a Solithar on HL, hah.. Urgh, I felt so dirty, not prioritize dexterity and strength as a warrior, tsk!

[Ghost]

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

srsly?

How does voice stat affect your play?  Only with high voice stat you can emote the sexy tones or something?

And don't even get me started on touch

[rishenko]

who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

What if the staff enforced their attitude/personality/looks to match?  Otherwise, you would have a bunch of fuck-nasty, disgusting looking outcasts, or social retards, which would destroy the softly-spoken, beautiful people who love to take it up their perfectly formed asses.  And folks...that just ain't gonna happen on Arm.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Four stats like we've always had. Anything else is silly.

[Dalmeth]

I think we would be just fine with three stats.  Get rid of agility.  Too often, it feels like a stat for raw skill, which should be governed by wisdom.

I think we could leave all the things agility currently governs to a system that calculates by strength, encumbrance, and a racial modifier.

[Qzzrbl]

Four stats like we've always had. Anything else is silly.

[Malken]

Agility, Strength, Endurance, Intelligence (skills + languages) and Aura (mana + natural defense against magick)

[jstorrie]

Strength, agility, endurance, intelligence and a magical attunement score that is not pregenerated, but developed through play by magically-aligned characters.

[Qzzrbl]

Strength- How much shit you can carry. How hard you hit.
Agility- How fast one can run. How quickly one can attack.
Dexterity- How adept one is with his hands. How good one is with crafting or lockpicking, pickpocketing, stuff like that. Climbing. Could also tie in with one's weapon finesse?
Wisdom- How smart one is. Determines things like how much mana one has, how powerful one's magick/mindbending powers are and how quickly one can learn things. Could play a part in determining stun points.
Willpower- How mentally tough (for lack of better words) one is. Determines resistance to magick/mindworms and stun points.
Endurance- How much physical wear and tear one's body can take. Determines HP and Stamina points.


Maybe we can go with something like this?

[RogueGunslinger]

Strength- How much shit you can carry. How hard you hit.
Agility- How fast one can run. How quickly one can attack.
Dexterity- How adept one is with his hands. How good one is with crafting or lockpicking, pickpocketing, stuff like that. Climbing. Could also tie in with one's weapon finesse?
Wisdom- How smart one is. Determines things like how much mana one has, how powerful one's magick/mindbending powers are and how quickly one can learn things. Could play a part in determining stun points.
Willpower- How mentally tough (for lack of better words) one is. Determines resistance to magick/mindworms and stun points.
Endurance- How much physical wear and tear one's body can take. Determines HP and Stamina points.


Maybe we can go with something like this?

This list makes the most sense to me, and I like it the best. Also, I believe, this list is the favored of many different RPG's.

[X-D]

Yes....its the list I'd use.

[Malken]

I have a feeling that the stat system for Arm 2.0 was chosen a long time ago, anyway.

[psionic fungus]

Splitting dexterity and agility is very important to me.  I just can't understand why the same stat dictates how well I can pick a lock or lift a coin pouch -and- how well I dodge or how often I can attack.  Moving your entire body quickly utilizes agility and using your hands deftly utilizes dexterity (using most RPG definitions), and I hope this is adopted by Armageddon.  Other distinctions, like adding constitution (health) to strength (weight restrictions) and endurance (stamina), intelligence (learning rate) and willpower (psi or mana) to wisdom (skill caps and starting) , or charisma (NPC reactions) I can take or leave... But I don't see how they would hurt anything...