Retire from the menu

[Bebop]

I don't understand why staff would need to approve anyone storing other than maybe a special thing for special apps like merchant house members, templars and nobles.  Even if you're a hunter clanned in Salarr or something, who cares?  If you don't want to play that character no one should try to make you even if an IMM thinks your plotline is good.

[Vettrock]

I don't think anyone is going to make you continue to play a character if you don't want to.  Personally, I've never retired a character, but I can understand why someone would want to retire one.

Basically, if you are involved in a plot they just want the ability to convert your character into an NPC, or have time to make an explaination to the other clan mmembers clan saying you were promoted to a desk job down in the noble's quarter and won't be seen very often etc. rather than just have you disappear forever from the face of zalathas.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Plenty of people disappear mysteriously from the face of Zalanthas in the middle of plots without storing.  It's called getting eaten.  Or falling down a hole.  Or off the Shield Wall.  Or into the Silt Sea.  Often on accident.

I'm sure staff know how to handle people disappearing.  

[GoodwinX]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

[Bebop]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

Congratulations you have just embodied elitism.

Guess what IT'S JUST A GAME.

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others.  And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play.  Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing.  I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

And it's what makes a lot of newbs shy away as well.

[Ender]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

Congratulations you have just embodied elitism.

Guess what IT'S JUST A GAME.

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others.  And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play.  Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing.  I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

And it's what makes a lot of newbs shy away as well.

I'm going to have to disagree.  Goodwin made a rather valid point that it really doesn't take that much effort to alert people who are depending on you for their fun that you will be retiring.

It's like saying you're going to play a pick up soccer game and you agreed to bring the ball or a running a D&D game and then not showing up.  Sure it's just for fun, but it's polite to alert people if you're not going to be able to play so they can make other arrangements.

Leadership roles in arm demand a certain amount of responsibility.  Sure even those roles are just part of a game we play because it's fun, but those of us who take those roles understand that responsibility is part of the fun, and do take our fun seriously.

So to anyone who does plan on retiring and do have others who depend on your PC, try to at least tell one of those PCs so they can relay the message.  It really shouldn't be that much of a request.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

This makes sense if they're roleplaying it as them going away, or getting reassigned, etc.

But people don't always do that.  Sometimes they'd like to be thought dead.  In which case they wouldn't go informing people 'Alright, I'm faking my death/disappearance now!'

Though with high-profile leadership type roles, I think it would be more -polite- to inform people.  I just don't think it's always necessary, or even fitting with the RP situation.

[Ender]

This makes sense if they're roleplaying it as them going away, or getting reassigned, etc.

But people don't always do that.  Sometimes they'd like to be thought dead.  In which case they wouldn't go informing people 'Alright, I'm faking my death/disappearance now!'

Though with high-profile leadership type roles, I think it would be more -polite- to inform people.  I just don't think it's always necessary, or even fitting with the RP situation.

That provides a completely different set of problems.  I'm generally against using that issue for storing a character.  In my opinion storing represents a PC pretty much mundanely fading into the background.  

Faking your own death is a very non-mundane thing to do, and it could effect a lot of PCs and make a neat plot that could involve multiple PCs, but just storing cuts off that RP, and makes their faked death utterly fool proof even though doing so in arm is very hard with common psionics, even with barrier.

Storing is in effect an OOC solution to what is normally an OOC problem of a player not enjoying his or her character.

So joe Byn sarge is tired of his role and wants to play a northern bard.  He can either say he's being transfered to another unit, or decide he's going to defect to become the evil servant of an evil magicker.  When he defects the other Byners would surely be given a very interesting plot of trying to track him down and kill him for the dirty deserting bastard he is.  But if that's just a set up for a storing, it cheats those byners out of the plot.

Sure there are other reasons for storing, but I think people should normally see the story of their character to the end, or write themselves out of the story in an acceptable way as to make it so their continued existence isn't a thorn in the side of PCs.

There are of course exceptions to this rule, but what I am primarily talking about are PCs that have other PCs that depend on them, especially in leadership roles.

[GoodwinX]

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others. And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play. Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing. I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

I certainly agree that real life takes precedence. And if a player can no longer log in for any reason, it doesn't matter what sort of character he was playing, he should take care of his real life affairs first.

My issue isn't with people who stop playing Armageddon without notice, it's with people who would desert one character for another without putting in a minimal effort to tie up loose ends. I'm not saying these people shouldn't play Arm or that I'm more "elite" than them. I'm just saying they shouldn't be given special roles if they are going to piss them away on a whim and leave everyone else hanging.

It's like saying you're going to play a pick up soccer game and you agreed to bring the ball or a running a D&D game and then not showing up. Sure it's just for fun, but it's polite to alert people if you're not going to be able to play so they can make other arrangements.

Great analogies.

[Bebop]

I don't think the analogy really applies based on a specified time and meeting place and a game that you can log onto anytime of the day.

Sure for an RPT you might want to give someone a head count out of courtesy, but basically saying if you can't meet my expectations then stay the fuck away... that is pretty elitist.  There is a difference between getting pissed off when someone no shows, and in advance sending out a threatening warning.

If I was gathering players for a DnD campaign and e-mail them saying look do this that and the other thing or stay the fuck away from me!  I doubt they would want to play.  My concern is that a continued attitude like this regarding the game and such high expectations does not seem very inviting.

See, it's a little problematic because D and D might last for say 5 hours once a week, while Armageddon is a CONSTANT.  I recently saw a post that was for a single RPT that lasted eight entire hours.  That's a whole work day folks.  This is why this game can quickly consume your ENTIRE life.  And comments like the one GoodX made don't help any.  People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

Didn't mean to ramble on but yeah.

[Gimfalisette]

People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

How is it elitist to expect that those playing leadership roles will actually have some level of OOC responsibility toward the role they have asked to have, and been granted by the imms? People who store leadership characters on a whim, or just stop playing those characters because they don't feel like it, are screwing over other players: Other players who applied for that role, other players in leadership in that area of the game who need co-conspirators for plots, other players of minions. It's lame to screw other players OOCly.

People who don't like being expected to actually play the role they applied for should never apply for those roles in the first place. The imms are real clear on the fact that special leadership roles (family merchants, nobles, templars) are granted with the idea that players will contribute to the game world through them; it's not like this gets sprung on anyone, "oh surprise, your role includes work!"

If players don't want expectations, they should stick to playing indies or low-level minions and leave the leadership roles to those who are willing to do the work and shoulder the OOC responsibility.

And that OOC responsibility, by the way, includes being patient and waiting for a storage request to go through if the player just can't stand the character anymore.

[staggerlee]

Any group activity comes with a certain amount of responsibility to the other people involved.  Even if you're only playing for fun there are certain guidelines.

If you sit down to a game of monopoly you generally get to start out by discussing whether you'll use house rules or the box rules and it's assumed that a certain basic minimum amount of attention will be paid.  If you get up suddenly two rounds in and go out for a beer because you're bored, well that's your right, but after doing that a couple times you probably won't be asked to play monopoly again.  

It's not that the game is  more important than other things in life, it's that group activities come with a certain very basic level of consideration to the other people involved.  For that reason I -have- played games when I wanted to do other things, and don't necessarily regret it. Like everything in life, there's some give and take.

But I'm actually assuming that most people in this game -are- somewhat considerate to each other on an ooc level and that there aren't being plots abandoned and clans left leaderless on the whim of players everywhere.

Anyway my point is that I think this thread is wildly polarized and that most people sit more in the middle than you'd think reading it.  Personally I don't play a huge amount but when I do play I make my schedule relatively consistent and don't drop link in the middle of things, I'll at least excuse myself.   Also, I think it helps in games like this to stick to roles you know you have the time and desire to play.  

None of that is really wildly unreasonable or negative, it's kind of like anything else in life.

[staggerlee]

It might be worth mentioning that the role of Karma as I understand it is so that the staff can judge who is and isn't likely to abandon (or misrepresent) a critical role.   So odds are none of this is an issue, they're already policing it and the extreme cases would be caught anyway.

[Medena]

Five of the eight characters I have played so far have been stored.  Speaking with some experience, I know very well what it is like to want to just move on to the next character RIGHT NOW and not have to wait for some imm to do it for you.

However, I also know that the feeling of boredom, dissatisfaction, not having the time for that role... etc, didn't just happen overnight so it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to have to wait a couple of days more to see happen what it took several weeks to decide upon.  In the couple of cases where my PC was not involved in any story lines, I found the imms processed the request very rapidly.

[X-D]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

Personaly, I DO think that an apped leader PC should be stored only with staff approvel...only because...well...reasons already mentioned...you asked to play it, you should ask to quit playing it...and even then, only to be polite. But this is no reason to not have a store from menu option.
It is a simple matter for staff to let the player who has apped noble/templar/merchant house family member (the only leader roles that I think should be apped) know that it is expected they will give X amount of lead time when requesting storage. And that not doing so or apparently suiciding would result in an unhappy staff and account note that will seriously hamper getting any such future roles or karma gains.

[Gimfalisette]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

And I still think that anyone who has accepted a leadership role has also accepted the OOC responsibility that comes along with that role. It might be "thrust" onto your PC, but in OOC reality, the imms aren't doing it without your consent.

With great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda. And it really doesn't matter if that power came through OOC means (application for the role) or IC means (working up through the ranks).

[Is Friday]

Bebop: That sounds kinda silly. Any extra cirricular activity or "real work" could "take over/ruin someone's life", (most likely referring to social relationships/marriage/jobs,) just the same as Arm could. You could become obsessed with painting, gambling, karate, or whatever hobby/thing. The game is not at fault for encouraging a respectful and courteous attitude while participating.

I am under the thought that your opinions are just a "counter-culture" effect many people have about internet activities that require "responsible behavior". The internet is fast-paced, easy-to-learn, and addictive (for at least a short time in most people's lives.) Just because the internet as a whole is generally for non-commitive behavior does not mean this community is not able to dictate its culture and foundation of such "responsibilities".

No one is saying you don't have to play what you don't find fun. The game is, however, setup and managed in a way to prevent other people from ruining your fun in a lot of ways: Approved character creation, enforced roleplay, punishments for bug abusers. You cannot have both plug-n-play fun and rich absorbing fun in the same game, in my opinion. That is what makes Arm so much better than the other MUDs, after all!

[Fathi]

I don't think the analogy really applies based on a specified time and meeting place and a game that you can log onto anytime of the day.

Sure for an RPT you might want to give someone a head count out of courtesy, but basically saying if you can't meet my expectations then stay the fuck away... that is pretty elitist.  There is a difference between getting pissed off when someone no shows, and in advance sending out a threatening warning.

If I was gathering players for a DnD campaign and e-mail them saying look do this that and the other thing or stay the fuck away from me!  I doubt they would want to play.  My concern is that a continued attitude like this regarding the game and such high expectations does not seem very inviting.

See, it's a little problematic because D and D might last for say 5 hours once a week, while Armageddon is a CONSTANT.  I recently saw a post that was for a single RPT that lasted eight entire hours.  That's a whole work day folks.  This is why this game can quickly consume your ENTIRE life.  And comments like the one GoodX made don't help any.  People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

Didn't mean to ramble on but yeah.

Try looking at it this way, I'll use school as an example. School sports teams are voluntary, you do them for various reasons, but mostly for fun. If you try out for the football team and make it and get accepted, you are also accepting a certain amount of responsibility to show up to games/practice, to train with your fellow players, etc. However, as long as your coach isn't a hardass, you can still probably miss a few here and there.

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

[Malken]

I do cocaine!

[staggerlee]

How's that going for you?

[jhunter]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

And I still think that anyone who has accepted a leadership role has also accepted the OOC responsibility that comes along with that role. It might be "thrust" onto your PC, but in OOC reality, the imms aren't doing it without your consent.

With great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda. And it really doesn't matter if that power came through OOC means (application for the role) or IC means (working up through the ranks).

Yeah, so according to Gim if your pc is thrust IC into a leadership position you should do something OOC to get out of it. Or immediately store your pc or suicide if it happens that you OOC don't want the responsibility of being a leader. Or just keep playing and take on the responsibility against your will for everyone else because now it's your job OOC too.
If that's not what you're saying, what the hell are you trying to say?

[jhunter]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

[Fathi]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

Uh, no. I'm saying if you don't want the extra responsibility, don't volunteer for it. If leadership roles make you bored or unhappy, you don't have to get into them in the first place.

I've seen grunt-level PCs turn down promotions plenty of times, or just quit clans because they'd rather not be forced into leadership. It's not rocket science.

[Fathi]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

Uh, no. I'm saying if you don't want the extra responsibility, don't volunteer for it. If leadership roles make you bored or unhappy, you don't have to get into them in the first place.

I've seen grunt-level PCs turn down promotions plenty of times, or just quit clans because they'd rather not be forced into leadership. It's not rocket science.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, so according to Gim if your pc is thrust IC into a leadership position you should do something OOC to get out of it. Or immediately store your pc or suicide if it happens that you OOC don't want the responsibility of being a leader. Or just keep playing and take on the responsibility against your will for everyone else because now it's your job OOC too.
If that's not what you're saying, what the hell are you trying to say?

I'm saying if you don't want to commit to the OOC responsibility of the job, don't take the job. Just like Fathi is saying: This ain't rocket science.