Retire from the menu

[Salt Merchant]

The idea being to make the option to retire a character available from the connection menu. Speedier than email the account and less work for the staff.

[jhunter]

I think that would be a great idea. If your pc is clanned though, I think it should send a notification to the staff in charge of the clan.

[Marauder Moe]

I think the reason retirements need to be approved is that if your PC is involved in plots, either you or the immortals running those plots may need to make arrangements to extricate you from them.

[flurry]

For what it's worth, it is an option on the request tool.

[mansa]

There's a retire section in the Request Tool.

The Request Tool seems to speed up things faster than email, and keep things organized...  so people don't respond to the same email address.

For what it's worth, it is an option on the request tool.

Curses!  I was 12 seconds too late.

[Mood]

I think he means that it'd be nice to be able to instantly retire your PC, without having to use the request tool.

[mansa]

I think he means that it'd be nice to be able to instantly retire your PC, without having to use the request tool.

>kill soldier

?

[Salt Merchant]

kill soldier

?

Not an approved method of retirement. Although probably not too uncommon.

[Raesanos]

I've thought about this before.  For a lot of characters this would make a lot of sense.  It is possible this could happen but there would be issues to work out first if it did.

[Mood]

If it happens, I'd like to ask that there be some kind of confirmation for doing it, to stop folks from accidentally storing their beloved characters... perhaps entering your password?

[Coat of Arms]

I agree, add a storage option in the login menu.

Also, make a flag that staff members can place on PCs who are too involved in a plot to store so that they can't do it themselves.

[Gimfalisette]

Probably anyone who has above Rank X in a clan shouldn't be allowed to store themselves. Like Byn Sergeant and above; military Corporal and above; merchant house Merchant or Agent and above; etc. Not sure if it would be possible to set that globally or not.

[Coat of Arms]

Anything's possible!

[X-D]

I like the idea.

Myself, When I am ready to retire a PC, I am ready to do it NOW...not ten hours from now, not 1 hour from now. This moment, I care not for rank etc. I am Done, sick and tired of the PC and unwilling to go any farther. So, my retiring a PC normaly looks like this.

Wish all Excuse me, I would like to have this PC stored...NOW...I will wait 15 minutes for a response, if not, will begin walking to the silt sea...Thanks and sorry to bother.

Also, make a flag that staff members can place on PCs who are too involved in a plot to store so that they can't do it themselves.

Why? If they are done, store them...if staff needs the PC they can animate it themselves...thats the only reason I even ask to be stored instead of simply walking out to become mekillot food. If I had a PC who was involved in every plot in the game and I was so sick of him that I wanted to store. Nothing anybody can say is going to get me to play that PC even 1 more minute. If I was willing to play them long enough to resolve things, I would not have asked to store. My thought on storage has always been donating a PC to staff anyway:)


Besides, Menu retirement option means a bit less work for staff.

[Fnord]

Good idea. I'd add a simple security measure like a secret question/answer in order to retire, both as a precaution against doing it accidentally and to avoid malicious use.

[Armaddict]

I approve, but I do see ONE drawback.

I've sent in emails before asking to retire, only to regret it the next day and send another email after checking to see whether it's been done.  It could be just me, but sometimes I have a mood swing or something that after I recover, I really would just like to continue the character I have.

If it's instant retirement, do so at your own risk and don't bug to have it reversed

[Rhyden]

Give it to people with karma over 3?

[Mood]

Give it to people with karma over 3?

Why? Like X-D said, if you don't want to continue playing your character, why should you have to?

[staggerlee]

You don't ever have to continue your character.

But the current process is to ensure that those in your clan have enough warning to write you out of the story.  They're just trying to think of a good way to make it convenient AND fair to everyone else.

[X-D]

Thats the thing, I'm not here for you...I'm not here for the staff...I'm here for me.

Just so happens that for the most part, playing in a manner that allows you to have fun and enjoyment is most likley going to enhance mine as well...So...I normaly attempt to do so.  But Once my PC is no longer fun, well...enhancing your enjoyment is STILL not making my PC fun for me.

Like I said, If staff needs the PC written out in a different manner, Store my PC, copy it, dupe it, whatever you need, and animate it to suit needs...because I will not.

To tell you the truth, if I could retire from menu, I would actually be more likley to take that 15 minutes to an hour that I am willing to wait on staff to store after a wish in order to wrap things up, appoint successer...whatever. And still the PC would not be "dead" So if staff still needed him for something they could use them...win win win situation.

I think I would put 1 limiter on storing from menu though...either have it be karma 1 or not be able to use it till the pc had say 24 hours played.

That way people would be less likley to store on stats...I know, they can still suicide. But I think staff catches on to that pretty quick.

[Rhyden]

Give it to people with karma over 3?

Why? Like X-D said, if you don't want to continue playing your character, why should you have to?

I'm just saying the ability to retire your character on the spot should require some amount of trust from the staff, or else you'll get players who continue retiring their characters instead of suiciding.

[jhunter]

I'm just saying the ability to retire your character on the spot should require some amount of trust from the staff, or else you'll get players who continue retiring their characters instead of suiciding.

I disagree. We're all here to play a game and have fun. If you're not having fun with a role you should be able to get out of it without having to resort to doing something unrealistic like suiciding your character.
I think people being able to retire their characters on the spot that they're not enjoying play with is a much better alternative to suiciding.

[Rhyden]

But who's gonna feed the scrab?

[jhunter]

But who's gonna feed the scrab?

Newbies.  :wink:

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Newbies and the unlucky.

[Bebop]

I don't understand why staff would need to approve anyone storing other than maybe a special thing for special apps like merchant house members, templars and nobles.  Even if you're a hunter clanned in Salarr or something, who cares?  If you don't want to play that character no one should try to make you even if an IMM thinks your plotline is good.

[Vettrock]

I don't think anyone is going to make you continue to play a character if you don't want to.  Personally, I've never retired a character, but I can understand why someone would want to retire one.

Basically, if you are involved in a plot they just want the ability to convert your character into an NPC, or have time to make an explaination to the other clan mmembers clan saying you were promoted to a desk job down in the noble's quarter and won't be seen very often etc. rather than just have you disappear forever from the face of zalathas.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Plenty of people disappear mysteriously from the face of Zalanthas in the middle of plots without storing.  It's called getting eaten.  Or falling down a hole.  Or off the Shield Wall.  Or into the Silt Sea.  Often on accident.

I'm sure staff know how to handle people disappearing.  

[GoodwinX]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

[Bebop]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

Congratulations you have just embodied elitism.

Guess what IT'S JUST A GAME.

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others.  And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play.  Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing.  I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

And it's what makes a lot of newbs shy away as well.

[Ender]

If you are in a position of power with other players relying on you as part of a plot and you get bored with your character then tough shit. You can afford to take an extra day extricating yourself neatly from your plots, and if you can't then you have no business taking high-profile or leadership roles. It's completely selfish and disrespectful to the people who play with you to abandon a role spur-of-the-moment.

I'm not saying you need to continue playing a character you don't enjoy for an extended period of time, but you have a responsibility to put in at least a tiny bit of effort to make the transition as seamless as possible.

If you aren't willing to do that, then stick to indie hunters and stay the hell away from me.

Congratulations you have just embodied elitism.

Guess what IT'S JUST A GAME.

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others.  And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play.  Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing.  I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

And it's what makes a lot of newbs shy away as well.

I'm going to have to disagree.  Goodwin made a rather valid point that it really doesn't take that much effort to alert people who are depending on you for their fun that you will be retiring.

It's like saying you're going to play a pick up soccer game and you agreed to bring the ball or a running a D&D game and then not showing up.  Sure it's just for fun, but it's polite to alert people if you're not going to be able to play so they can make other arrangements.

Leadership roles in arm demand a certain amount of responsibility.  Sure even those roles are just part of a game we play because it's fun, but those of us who take those roles understand that responsibility is part of the fun, and do take our fun seriously.

So to anyone who does plan on retiring and do have others who depend on your PC, try to at least tell one of those PCs so they can relay the message.  It really shouldn't be that much of a request.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

This makes sense if they're roleplaying it as them going away, or getting reassigned, etc.

But people don't always do that.  Sometimes they'd like to be thought dead.  In which case they wouldn't go informing people 'Alright, I'm faking my death/disappearance now!'

Though with high-profile leadership type roles, I think it would be more -polite- to inform people.  I just don't think it's always necessary, or even fitting with the RP situation.

[Ender]

This makes sense if they're roleplaying it as them going away, or getting reassigned, etc.

But people don't always do that.  Sometimes they'd like to be thought dead.  In which case they wouldn't go informing people 'Alright, I'm faking my death/disappearance now!'

Though with high-profile leadership type roles, I think it would be more -polite- to inform people.  I just don't think it's always necessary, or even fitting with the RP situation.

That provides a completely different set of problems.  I'm generally against using that issue for storing a character.  In my opinion storing represents a PC pretty much mundanely fading into the background.  

Faking your own death is a very non-mundane thing to do, and it could effect a lot of PCs and make a neat plot that could involve multiple PCs, but just storing cuts off that RP, and makes their faked death utterly fool proof even though doing so in arm is very hard with common psionics, even with barrier.

Storing is in effect an OOC solution to what is normally an OOC problem of a player not enjoying his or her character.

So joe Byn sarge is tired of his role and wants to play a northern bard.  He can either say he's being transfered to another unit, or decide he's going to defect to become the evil servant of an evil magicker.  When he defects the other Byners would surely be given a very interesting plot of trying to track him down and kill him for the dirty deserting bastard he is.  But if that's just a set up for a storing, it cheats those byners out of the plot.

Sure there are other reasons for storing, but I think people should normally see the story of their character to the end, or write themselves out of the story in an acceptable way as to make it so their continued existence isn't a thorn in the side of PCs.

There are of course exceptions to this rule, but what I am primarily talking about are PCs that have other PCs that depend on them, especially in leadership roles.

[GoodwinX]

The game is for personal enjoyment, that happens to involve others. And real life takes precedence, if some can't play they can't play. Actually the feeling of OBLIGATION towards a game is what is making me draw further and further from playing. I play games to have fun, I go to work because it's an obligation you see what I mean?

I certainly agree that real life takes precedence. And if a player can no longer log in for any reason, it doesn't matter what sort of character he was playing, he should take care of his real life affairs first.

My issue isn't with people who stop playing Armageddon without notice, it's with people who would desert one character for another without putting in a minimal effort to tie up loose ends. I'm not saying these people shouldn't play Arm or that I'm more "elite" than them. I'm just saying they shouldn't be given special roles if they are going to piss them away on a whim and leave everyone else hanging.

It's like saying you're going to play a pick up soccer game and you agreed to bring the ball or a running a D&D game and then not showing up. Sure it's just for fun, but it's polite to alert people if you're not going to be able to play so they can make other arrangements.

Great analogies.

[Bebop]

I don't think the analogy really applies based on a specified time and meeting place and a game that you can log onto anytime of the day.

Sure for an RPT you might want to give someone a head count out of courtesy, but basically saying if you can't meet my expectations then stay the fuck away... that is pretty elitist.  There is a difference between getting pissed off when someone no shows, and in advance sending out a threatening warning.

If I was gathering players for a DnD campaign and e-mail them saying look do this that and the other thing or stay the fuck away from me!  I doubt they would want to play.  My concern is that a continued attitude like this regarding the game and such high expectations does not seem very inviting.

See, it's a little problematic because D and D might last for say 5 hours once a week, while Armageddon is a CONSTANT.  I recently saw a post that was for a single RPT that lasted eight entire hours.  That's a whole work day folks.  This is why this game can quickly consume your ENTIRE life.  And comments like the one GoodX made don't help any.  People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

Didn't mean to ramble on but yeah.

[Gimfalisette]

People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

How is it elitist to expect that those playing leadership roles will actually have some level of OOC responsibility toward the role they have asked to have, and been granted by the imms? People who store leadership characters on a whim, or just stop playing those characters because they don't feel like it, are screwing over other players: Other players who applied for that role, other players in leadership in that area of the game who need co-conspirators for plots, other players of minions. It's lame to screw other players OOCly.

People who don't like being expected to actually play the role they applied for should never apply for those roles in the first place. The imms are real clear on the fact that special leadership roles (family merchants, nobles, templars) are granted with the idea that players will contribute to the game world through them; it's not like this gets sprung on anyone, "oh surprise, your role includes work!"

If players don't want expectations, they should stick to playing indies or low-level minions and leave the leadership roles to those who are willing to do the work and shoulder the OOC responsibility.

And that OOC responsibility, by the way, includes being patient and waiting for a storage request to go through if the player just can't stand the character anymore.

[staggerlee]

Any group activity comes with a certain amount of responsibility to the other people involved.  Even if you're only playing for fun there are certain guidelines.

If you sit down to a game of monopoly you generally get to start out by discussing whether you'll use house rules or the box rules and it's assumed that a certain basic minimum amount of attention will be paid.  If you get up suddenly two rounds in and go out for a beer because you're bored, well that's your right, but after doing that a couple times you probably won't be asked to play monopoly again.  

It's not that the game is  more important than other things in life, it's that group activities come with a certain very basic level of consideration to the other people involved.  For that reason I -have- played games when I wanted to do other things, and don't necessarily regret it. Like everything in life, there's some give and take.

But I'm actually assuming that most people in this game -are- somewhat considerate to each other on an ooc level and that there aren't being plots abandoned and clans left leaderless on the whim of players everywhere.

Anyway my point is that I think this thread is wildly polarized and that most people sit more in the middle than you'd think reading it.  Personally I don't play a huge amount but when I do play I make my schedule relatively consistent and don't drop link in the middle of things, I'll at least excuse myself.   Also, I think it helps in games like this to stick to roles you know you have the time and desire to play.  

None of that is really wildly unreasonable or negative, it's kind of like anything else in life.

[staggerlee]

It might be worth mentioning that the role of Karma as I understand it is so that the staff can judge who is and isn't likely to abandon (or misrepresent) a critical role.   So odds are none of this is an issue, they're already policing it and the extreme cases would be caught anyway.

[Medena]

Five of the eight characters I have played so far have been stored.  Speaking with some experience, I know very well what it is like to want to just move on to the next character RIGHT NOW and not have to wait for some imm to do it for you.

However, I also know that the feeling of boredom, dissatisfaction, not having the time for that role... etc, didn't just happen overnight so it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to have to wait a couple of days more to see happen what it took several weeks to decide upon.  In the couple of cases where my PC was not involved in any story lines, I found the imms processed the request very rapidly.

[X-D]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

Personaly, I DO think that an apped leader PC should be stored only with staff approvel...only because...well...reasons already mentioned...you asked to play it, you should ask to quit playing it...and even then, only to be polite. But this is no reason to not have a store from menu option.
It is a simple matter for staff to let the player who has apped noble/templar/merchant house family member (the only leader roles that I think should be apped) know that it is expected they will give X amount of lead time when requesting storage. And that not doing so or apparently suiciding would result in an unhappy staff and account note that will seriously hamper getting any such future roles or karma gains.

[Gimfalisette]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

And I still think that anyone who has accepted a leadership role has also accepted the OOC responsibility that comes along with that role. It might be "thrust" onto your PC, but in OOC reality, the imms aren't doing it without your consent.

With great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda. And it really doesn't matter if that power came through OOC means (application for the role) or IC means (working up through the ranks).

[Is Friday]

Bebop: That sounds kinda silly. Any extra cirricular activity or "real work" could "take over/ruin someone's life", (most likely referring to social relationships/marriage/jobs,) just the same as Arm could. You could become obsessed with painting, gambling, karate, or whatever hobby/thing. The game is not at fault for encouraging a respectful and courteous attitude while participating.

I am under the thought that your opinions are just a "counter-culture" effect many people have about internet activities that require "responsible behavior". The internet is fast-paced, easy-to-learn, and addictive (for at least a short time in most people's lives.) Just because the internet as a whole is generally for non-commitive behavior does not mean this community is not able to dictate its culture and foundation of such "responsibilities".

No one is saying you don't have to play what you don't find fun. The game is, however, setup and managed in a way to prevent other people from ruining your fun in a lot of ways: Approved character creation, enforced roleplay, punishments for bug abusers. You cannot have both plug-n-play fun and rich absorbing fun in the same game, in my opinion. That is what makes Arm so much better than the other MUDs, after all!

[Fathi]

I don't think the analogy really applies based on a specified time and meeting place and a game that you can log onto anytime of the day.

Sure for an RPT you might want to give someone a head count out of courtesy, but basically saying if you can't meet my expectations then stay the fuck away... that is pretty elitist.  There is a difference between getting pissed off when someone no shows, and in advance sending out a threatening warning.

If I was gathering players for a DnD campaign and e-mail them saying look do this that and the other thing or stay the fuck away from me!  I doubt they would want to play.  My concern is that a continued attitude like this regarding the game and such high expectations does not seem very inviting.

See, it's a little problematic because D and D might last for say 5 hours once a week, while Armageddon is a CONSTANT.  I recently saw a post that was for a single RPT that lasted eight entire hours.  That's a whole work day folks.  This is why this game can quickly consume your ENTIRE life.  And comments like the one GoodX made don't help any.  People begin to feel an obligation not only to play but to maintain some strict level of morality for something that can consume more hours than work school or any other hobby.  I remember playing a House merchant and it felt like a second JOB.

This game has a serious issue with elitism, I almost wish the Saturday down time would come back.  Sometimes the issue is more subtle than others but I have seen this game ruin LIVES and change them, for the better or the worse who is to say.  But that is why personally I have taken an indefinite break from the game.  And tried to post less and less on the forums.

Didn't mean to ramble on but yeah.

Try looking at it this way, I'll use school as an example. School sports teams are voluntary, you do them for various reasons, but mostly for fun. If you try out for the football team and make it and get accepted, you are also accepting a certain amount of responsibility to show up to games/practice, to train with your fellow players, etc. However, as long as your coach isn't a hardass, you can still probably miss a few here and there.

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

[Malken]

I do cocaine!

[staggerlee]

How's that going for you?

[jhunter]

Sometimes Gim...people do NOT apply for leader roles.

I myself NEVER have...and yet, I've had a fair number of them. Sometimes it is not asked for but thrust ICly onto the PC.

And I still think that anyone who has accepted a leadership role has also accepted the OOC responsibility that comes along with that role. It might be "thrust" onto your PC, but in OOC reality, the imms aren't doing it without your consent.

With great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda. And it really doesn't matter if that power came through OOC means (application for the role) or IC means (working up through the ranks).

Yeah, so according to Gim if your pc is thrust IC into a leadership position you should do something OOC to get out of it. Or immediately store your pc or suicide if it happens that you OOC don't want the responsibility of being a leader. Or just keep playing and take on the responsibility against your will for everyone else because now it's your job OOC too.
If that's not what you're saying, what the hell are you trying to say?

[jhunter]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

[Fathi]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

Uh, no. I'm saying if you don't want the extra responsibility, don't volunteer for it. If leadership roles make you bored or unhappy, you don't have to get into them in the first place.

I've seen grunt-level PCs turn down promotions plenty of times, or just quit clans because they'd rather not be forced into leadership. It's not rocket science.

[Fathi]

Now, if you try out for the quarterback and get that spot, you have a certain amount of extra responsibility, especially if (as it is in a lot of cases in Armageddon's clans) you have no backup. If you don't show up to practice and start not showing up to games, it's still just a hobby and you have no real obligation to, but if I was a receiver or running back that was supposed to work with this quarterback, I'd be fairly ticked off.

Yeah, so do something that you don't want to do just to make everyone but yourself happy?
I'm sorry but if people can't see it from my point of view and expect that from me...fuck 'em if they are ticked off at me. At the point that they've shown me they believe I should just keep chugging along unhappily because I might fuck with their mojo (indirectly), while playing a -game- (that's supposed to be done for enjoyment), I no longer care what they think or feel on the subject.

Uh, no. I'm saying if you don't want the extra responsibility, don't volunteer for it. If leadership roles make you bored or unhappy, you don't have to get into them in the first place.

I've seen grunt-level PCs turn down promotions plenty of times, or just quit clans because they'd rather not be forced into leadership. It's not rocket science.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, so according to Gim if your pc is thrust IC into a leadership position you should do something OOC to get out of it. Or immediately store your pc or suicide if it happens that you OOC don't want the responsibility of being a leader. Or just keep playing and take on the responsibility against your will for everyone else because now it's your job OOC too.
If that's not what you're saying, what the hell are you trying to say?

I'm saying if you don't want to commit to the OOC responsibility of the job, don't take the job. Just like Fathi is saying: This ain't rocket science.

[X-D]

I'm saying if you don't want to commit to the OOC responsibility of the job, don't take the job. Just like Fathi is saying: This ain't rocket science.

And yet we are supposed to play our PCs true to char.

My last warrior had no desire to be in leadership. (And neither did I) But he loved his clan.There came a point when the clan was without effective
PC leadership and he was EASILY the best choice and he knew it. Now, your saying I should have either A: Play my PC against his charecter for OOC reasons, IE leave the clan or turn the job down. or B: Play the PC as I should yet be unhappy in that play...Heh. Whatever.

[staggerlee]

Just out of curiosity, how did you handle it?

I understand the dilemma, it's easy to get suckered into more than you can handle in games like this and it gets really stressful when you do. Even having too many friends in the game can do it, suddenly you're trying to keep in touch with 20 people, so you put that extra day in and bam... not so much fun anymore.

[jstorrie]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

[Malken]

Like X-D, I often feel like I'm being 'pushed' into leadership roles, because when I play, I tend to play -often-, and what people look for in leaders, more than anything else, is someone that plays often. As long as you are a decent roleplayer and understand basic concepts of the game, if you play often, you'll make it to a leadership role -quickly-. I made Kadius Lieutenant in about three weeks with one of my favorite character, unfortunately, I also hate leadership roles, but since I like the clan at first, I'm dedicated, I often fall into the trap of accepting the leadership role, because, at first, it's cool, it's either you accept it or you are stuck with a bunch of players that don't know what to do and don't advance any story plots. So you take it, then it drives you nuts, then you hate the character, then you retire.

Recently, with yet another warrior-type, I fell into the same trap! Love the character, love the clan at first, love who I play with, so I accept the leadership role, it's all fun at first, but then I realize that I fell into the same corner yet again, start hating the clan, start hating my character, end up retiring yet another great character.

I don't believe one second when someone says that to become a leader, it's because the Staff trusts you, both times I've become a leader, actually, as the lieutenant of the Kadius, my staff leader at the time DID NOT EVEN KNOW who I was, imagine my surprise when I asked for my note reviews! Most often, like I said, what makes someone into a leader is how often they play.

So no, not all of us are made to be leaders, but often, we fall into a leadership role 'just cause' and by the time we realize that it's too late to back off, we've wasted yet another great character.

Like Bebop, if there's something I really dislike about Armageddon and why I'm avoiding it like the plague lately is the feeling that you have to log on a few hours a day else you let down players, be they your clanmates, your lovers, your friends, if you don't log in, you always have that thought in the back of your mind that you might be missing on something and that maybe you should log on for a few minutes.. Then a few minutes turn into hours and then it's all meh again.

SO ANYWAY, my point is that not all of us decides to become leaders just because we want power and leadership, sometimes, oftentimes for me, we just 'fall into it' until we hate it, then we retire because we just can't take it anymore and it makes us hate the game and see it as a job more than anything else, and unfortunately, playing the lone hunter all the time to avoid such roles get old, so we try a clan once in a while, just to keep falling back into leadership because clans are often empty and desperate for 'decent' players.

Another thing I've noticed is that many of the BIG leaders of clans often try and bend the rules and try their best to 'accomodate' you into a leadership role, it's like they don't want to accept that you just want to be a simple hunter or just a simple partisan in the clan, or maybe you just enjoy being a lone scout, why is it that everyone that joins a clan have to be turned into Sergeants and 'For Life' members of clans as quickly as possible, that's probably another reason for the many leaders-to-retirement problems?

[Malken]

Yah, so after my big ass post above, I want to say that there are times when it's a good thing that we have to send a request for storage,

Here's some examples of why it's a good thing that we need to request storage, instead of being able to retire whenever.

Someone wants to retire because they haven't seen their clan leader or Staff in a week and is growing bored. At least the clan staff can reply to him or her with something like, "Hey, I've been really busy this week, and so have Clan Leader X, I'll be done with my exams this week so I'll be much more available to the clan soon. Still want to retire or do you want to give it a few more days?"

Or someone is just bored with his character and sends in a request, his Staff leader replies with something like, "Your character is in the middle of an on-going plot at the moment, if you are willing to give it a few more days, I can promise you some exciting things for your character, but if not, I can understand and we'll find a way to 'store' it without disrupting the plot."

etc, etc... If we could just retire whenever, that doesn't give the chance to any Staff members to communicate with you first, or even know the reasons as to why you decided to retire, and, even if it's a game, I think it's just the nice and decent thing to do to allow them to a reason and/or chance to reply.

[Fathi]

Another thing I've noticed is that many of the BIG leaders of clans often try and bend the rules and try their best to 'accomodate' you into a leadership role, it's like they don't want to accept that you just want to be a simple hunter or just a simple partisan in the clan, or maybe you just enjoy being a lone scout, why is it that everyone that joins a clan have to be turned into Sergeants and 'For Life' members of clans as quickly as possible, that's probably another reason for the many leaders-to-retirement problems?

You bring up a lot of valid points, actually, and I'd like to clarify that what I meant for the football analogy was more for sponsored, higher-up leadership roles as opposed to the type that most PCs can attain just through rising in the ranks of clans.

I'd like to touch on this last part, actually, as it's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

It seems like in the past six months or so, I've seen more promotions to higher levels in more clans than before, sometimes after a ridiculously short amount of time.

A drive-by admin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of the reasoning behind this is the immortals are being less restrictive on these roles in order to give players the chance to experience them before the game ends. That, and I imagine they want all the clans to be well-staffed with leaders for the endgame itself, and if you have a history of keeping characters alive long, it's easy to see why someone might notice that and try to nudge you up the ladder.

So if you've felt ushered into positions higher up than you intended that PC to climb, especially lately, it might be because of that.

[Barzalene]

You all aren't big on gray areas, are you?
There's a difference between never stretching and taking on responsibility when you're not sure or, the other extremes of taking the roles and treating them like a marriage or taking roles whimsically and feeling no responsibility to follow through.

There's a difference between giving up a role because you're not constantly amused and giving it up because your grandma got run over by a train and requires your 24 hour care.

If grandma gets run over by a train, you retire your pc and don't give it a thought. If you're not enjoying the role you write your clan imms and give them the courtesy of saying, "Sorry this isn't working for me, can we wrap this up within the next few days so I can go do something else."

Saying that you can't retire leadership roles from the start menus is not the same as being shackled in ginka's basement. If ginka had a basement.
You can and should retire from roles you're really not enjoying, but you should give your fellow players the courtesy of not just walking out without warning to the people running your clan.

Also, the role you hate today, may be the best role you ever had tomorrow. Not being able to chuck it on a moment's frustration might be good not just for everyone else, but for you as well.

[Barzalene]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

Really good point. If implemented we'd need some check against this sort of behavior.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

Really good point. If implemented we'd need some check against this sort of behavior.

Perhaps make it so you can't retire a character until they've been played for a certain period of time, or you can't retire more than one character in an OOC month or something.

[Space Ace]

The main takeaway I've gotten from this thread is that "Common courtesy is not so common."

If you want to suddenly stop the game in progress, "take your ball and go home" because you don't like it, I suppose that's your prerogative.  Don't expect the rest of us left standing on the court staring at each other to want to play with you again after you walk home with the basketball.  That's not an elitist statement, it's human nature.   Your lack of courtesy and disrespect for the rest for us is the central problem with an instant-gratification retirement option.

Personally, I don't find role-playing the sudden departure of a 'key figure' because they got bored or retired very entertaining.  At least with the current system my PC gets some sort of notification that the figure has 'moved on' to other things and I can dutifully acknowledge they are gone and not bother with the subject any longer.   I appreciate the fact that the staff wants to oversee retirements to mitigate/prevent the rest of us having to deal with the mess you left behind by quitting.  The way I see it, the request for retirement system is more about keeping the game enjoyable for the rest of us than to inconvenience individual players with its lack of instant gratification.

[staggerlee]

The main takeaway I've gotten from this thread is that "Common courtesy is not so common."

Do keep in mind that people take extreme positions on forums that don't necessarily accurately portray their actions or feelings.

I kind of doubt that the community is split between people who out of responsibility are playing every day even though they hate it and people who abandon characters at the first sign of trouble.

Forums seem to exist to foster hair pulling, straw man arguments and red faced ranting.

[flurry]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

I'd hope if staff catches abuse like this, those people wouldn't have that automated storing option (or would automatically get average stats).

Suiciding or storing over stats is lame.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

I'd hope if staff catches abuse like this, those people wouldn't have that automated storing option (or would automatically get average stats).

Suiciding or storing over stats is lame.

When my current character started, his stats were all average/slightly above average.  For some reason, I wanted him to have better, and rerolled him and all of his stats went down.  I was a little frustrated, but kept on keepin' on.  He's now shaping up to be one of my favorite characters I've played.  And yes, he has a job where stats matter, not a social-type character.

The moral of this story?  Stats don't mean squat for your enjoyment.  You don't have to be the strongest of the strong to do well.

[X-D]

First, Malken...Good job...I'd have said all that if I could have. But sadly, though I am a great speaker...in print, me idea no come out so good:)


Staggerlee

Just out of curiosity, how did you handle it?

Well...Lets go back what was it...9 years IRL, I made a dwarf, joined the byn, had a great time, when his year was up a Tor sarge recruited him as a red. This PC had no desire to rise in the ranks. But due to some IC events he was quickly left as the ONLY PC in Tor other then a certain well played Silver. After a month or so RL a staffer happened to take a bit of notice then poof, he was a sarge. Anyway, with this PC I took it and ran with it. Had a good time, Built Tor up all on his lonesome, even making money himself to pay his recruits. After about 7 months staff finally noticed that Tor had no imm or nobles BTW...and fixed that, even paying my PC back many thousands of coins and making him LT. He was killed in action, but it was really an unplanned suicide.

Winrothol, the PC actually wanted to become high rank, and made it to LT from nothing. But then some staff and noble changes made the house unplayable for me and unlivable for my PC...who then made off with his lover to eventual suicide.

Had a bynner pretty recently, all he wanted was to be a trooper. But sadly IC events forced him to take rank or risk watching all go to hell. He eventually retired from the clan.

I play my PC true to char. Every time. Unfortunatly, like Malken said, this often leads to unasked for work. And people that use the "Take the ball and go home" Thats not it, its "Leave the ball and go home" You can continue on with the game, just without your quarterback...hey, appoint a new one Duh.

Oh, and BTW, the only PCs I've ever stored out of the blue, one, not a leader, completly dead end in a clan he could not get out of with a clan imm I hated from before them being staff.

The other, clan imm retired, NO other PCs in clan and I was bored to tears. Both were wish up storage, on both I would have just walked them to certain death if staff would not have responded in a timely manner.

[GoodwinX]

And people that use the "Take the ball and go home" Thats not it, its "Leave the ball and go home" You can continue on with the game, just without your quarterback...hey, appoint a new one Duh.

You may not be taking the ball, but you're taking the play book. And sure the "coaches" may know all the same plays you do, but they aren't the ones who trained with your team members and learned all their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not saying you need to stick around to finish the football season if you suddenly decide you'd rather play basketball, but you should at least give the new QB a few words of encouragement and clue him in on which receivers do the best in the end zone.

[manonfire]

Fantastic idea, OP. To trump the 'omg, people will abuse this!' argument, there are plenty of abusable things in game that aren't often abused, simply due to caliber of person that's attracted to an RPI mud.

[Mood]

Okay, guys, the sports analogy is getting out of hand.

[jhunter]

I play my PC true to char. Every time. Unfortunatly, like Malken said, this often leads to unasked for work.

Exactly, my -pc- might take the job even if -I- OOCly don't want/or have time for the responsibility.

[Is Friday]

I would guess people would design character traits around your preferences regarding responsibility on an OOC level.

[X-D]

I would guess people would design character traits around your preferences regarding responsibility on an OOC level.

Yup, thats easy to do, simply make a rinthy merchant elf then move to the wastes and stay there, never join a clan, be a hermit...Oh...and make sure no PC ever lives longer then 2 RL weeks.


Bleh.

[Krath]

What X-D said. Just so we are clear, ANY Apped leadership roles, need to be approved before retiring,
Anything else, retire when you want.

[Is Friday]

You guys are so extreme. :\

[Good Gortok]

Characters specifically applied into a special role, such as House family members, should not be allowed to store without at least the consent of the clan imm. I think that's perfectly fair. I'd say that the same goes for characters who have risen into a leadership position such as sergeants and perhaps templars'/nobles' aides. The difference here is that if the player really doesn't want their character to earn such a rank, they should be able to avoid it by discussing it with their clan immortals. I doubt any imms would force a character into a position of responsibility beyond the players' desire with no other alternative available. I've personally never heard of anyone encountering "your character will now become a sergeant or we'll have the clan NPCs kill him, you have no say in the matter".

I would have just walked them to certain death if staff would not have responded in a timely manner.

I certainly know that feeling. I've suicided characters, and I've even done so after requesting storage. As wrong as I know that it is, if more than a day passes before my request is resolved I'll just go and have an accident. That's a whole day where I can't play, and if I have no loose ends and nobody who will miss my character much, I take matters into my own hands. I play to have fun, and as long as I'm not compromising the fun of anybody else by doing so, I'll save myself another day of not being able to play by feeding myself to a bahamet. I appreciate the request system and I realize that the staff wasn't born to solve our problems, but I don't believe I should have to wait sometimes 48 hours or more before I can play another character, unless the one I'm playing can't just disappear without any problems.

I always found it very odd that suiciding a character is so frowned upon when the alternative (storage) can take days and can potentially earn you bad account notes. The kind of player who would store a character at a whim would likely also suicide one, so I think allowing us to retire ourselves from the menu is a great idea. We play to have fun, and when a player isn't having fun, keeping them from moving on to another character is a great way to make our playerbase one head smaller.

[X-D]

I'd say that the same goes for characters who have risen into a leadership position such as sergeants and perhaps templars'/nobles' aides. The difference here is that if the player really doesn't want their character to earn such a rank, they should be able to avoid it by discussing it with their clan immortals. I doubt any imms would force a character into a position of responsibility beyond the players' desire with no other alternative available. I've personally never heard of anyone encountering "your character will now become a sergeant or we'll have the clan NPCs kill him, you have no say in the matter".

Your probobly right...BUT...that would just as easily result in suicide/storage as well. Its an OOC method that interrupts the natural progression of your PCs char development in an artificial manner. I mean, I know many people map out thier PCs entire personality from the start. But many of us don't. I myself start with a VERY basic concept. Toss it into the world and let it grow over time. This is something that works for me because it is NOT rare for me to keep a single PC from 6-24 months. This method, at least for me CAN keep that PC interesting the entire time.

[Aquarian]

Half a month later I know. Sorry.

How is it elitist to expect that those playing leadership roles will actually have some level of OOC responsibility toward the role they have asked to have, and been granted by the imms? People who store leadership characters on a whim, or just stop playing those characters because they don't feel like it, are screwing over other players: Other players who applied for that role, other players in leadership in that area of the game who need co-conspirators for plots, other players of minions. It's lame to screw other players OOCly.

People who don't like being expected to actually play the role they applied for should never apply for those roles in the first place. The imms are real clear on the fact that special leadership roles (family merchants, nobles, templars) are granted with the idea that players will contribute to the game world through them; it's not like this gets sprung on anyone, "oh surprise, your role includes work!"

If players don't want expectations, they should stick to playing indies or low-level minions and leave the leadership roles to those who are willing to do the work and shoulder the OOC responsibility.

And that OOC responsibility, by the way, includes being patient and waiting for a storage request to go through if the player just can't stand the character anymore.

I bash you all the time Gimf. I suck, you suck it's all good. You're entitled to hate me and not care about what I am about to say.

But for once I agree with everything you said right here.[/b]

I assholishly commend you for not pissing me off.

Shocking, I know. At least I'm honest.

/end semi-derail

I am 100% for having the option to retire a character in the menu. But I also say that Gimf is right. If you take the role, you should be prepared for the work. And you shouldn't be able to flush the toilet just because you made a turd that smells.

[Eternal]

I am 100% for having the option to retire a character in the menu. But I also say that Gimf is right. If you take the role, you should be prepared for the work. And you shouldn't be able to flush the toilet just because you made a turd that smells.

If you spec app a role, then making a request through Staff seems only right.  As far as adding the menu option, it does make sense, perhaps it could be written in such a way that it would email any clans you are currently flagged with with a simple:

MEMO: AMOS has been stored by account PWNKILLAZ due to "I just can't play this character any more due to rl time constraints/lack of interest, etc.  I hope you understand ~pwnkillaz".

Just an idea, but I would say that -anyone- who stores their character should be kind enough to still drop clan staff an email (or mud account if they were involved in a major way but not clanned) to let them know they are no longer playing that character.

That seems to be the biggest arguement against:  if Staff does it at least they are aware.  I'm on the fence on the issue, but more options are always better than fewer, and I like to think the playerbase can be trusted more often than not.

Lord Templar Hard Nose says to the pudgy, red-robed templar, in tatlum:
"So you see, I just don't feel like doing templar things anymore... I want to be a Tuluki bard."

[Gimfalisette]

I bash you all the time Gimf. I suck, you suck it's all good. You're entitled to hate me and not care about what I am about to say.

But for once I agree with everything you said right here.[/b]

I assholishly commend you for not pissing me off.

Shocking, I know. At least I'm honest.

/end semi-derail

I am 100% for having the option to retire a character in the menu. But I also say that Gimf is right. If you take the role, you should be prepared for the work. And you shouldn't be able to flush the toilet just because you made a turd that smells.

You know, up until you posted this, I thought maybe ARM1 wouldn't really end, ever. But now I know...THIS IS A SIGN OF THE COMING OF THE END!

*huddles in a ball and cries quietly*

More seriously, though, uh...thank you for the assholish compliment?

[X-D]

I really think a vast majority of players would indeed email thier clan staff when intending to store. I know that if I had the menu option I would find it much easier to plan such things ahead.

Email, I am goint to store so and so because...blah blah, at this time, I will have him logged in 3 hours before that in case you wish to wrap things up...cheers.

[GoodwinX]

I know that if I had the menu option I would find it much easier to plan such things ahead.

I wrote a long response to that about why it didn't make any sense and how the only thing that an unrestricted menu option makes it easier to do is store without planning ahead and without being considerate to your fellow players.

I deleted it because instead of fueling the fire, I'm going to propose a compromise that would allow you to plan things out like you described but prevent people from storing on a whim.

You would still need to submit a storage request but the result would be that a menu option then opens up for that character which allows you to store it within a certain time frame. If you're willing to email your clan imm before you store, then you should be willing to wait for the request to go through. Then when you've finished everything you need to do with that character, you can immediately store it and app a new one.

Edited to add: Perhaps you should be allowed to submit an application for a new character at the same time you submit a storage request. That would further decrease the amount of waiting for everyone who is so impatient about the storing process.

[X-D]

I said Much easier, Not that I would every single time, there are times when its simply over. In those cases, I'm not waiting. Also, have you looked at the ave turn around times on the request tool? Hhhmmm?

Point on having the menu option is not JUST to be able to store at a moments notice...Hell, Suicide works as well for that. But to get it done in a timely manner and with the least amount of hassle, both for the player and for staff.

And by plan things ahead, I meant -without- Staff. As in.

Tell second in command, Alright Joe, I'm getting re-assigned to the most obscure post we have...Your in charge now, here is the key to the office...enjoy.

quit
*menu stuff*
S
Are you sure you wish to store your PC now? If so please type your password.
password
JoJO stored
*menu stuff*
start making a new PC.

As to storing on a whim...You try and prevent that and they simply go get ate by the nearest big nasty.

[mansa]

i think yeah retirement is cool i've retired 6 pcs because i didn't like the character concept and i was afraid to tell the immortals that I  changed my mind and I'm sorry to bother you guys and I'm sorry sorry.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

*random* I wish more people would get eaten.  Them grebbers gotta live somehow!