Retire from the menu

[X-D]

I'm saying if you don't want to commit to the OOC responsibility of the job, don't take the job. Just like Fathi is saying: This ain't rocket science.

And yet we are supposed to play our PCs true to char.

My last warrior had no desire to be in leadership. (And neither did I) But he loved his clan.There came a point when the clan was without effective
PC leadership and he was EASILY the best choice and he knew it. Now, your saying I should have either A: Play my PC against his charecter for OOC reasons, IE leave the clan or turn the job down. or B: Play the PC as I should yet be unhappy in that play...Heh. Whatever.

[staggerlee]

Just out of curiosity, how did you handle it?

I understand the dilemma, it's easy to get suckered into more than you can handle in games like this and it gets really stressful when you do. Even having too many friends in the game can do it, suddenly you're trying to keep in touch with 20 people, so you put that extra day in and bam... not so much fun anymore.

[jstorrie]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

[Malken]

Like X-D, I often feel like I'm being 'pushed' into leadership roles, because when I play, I tend to play -often-, and what people look for in leaders, more than anything else, is someone that plays often. As long as you are a decent roleplayer and understand basic concepts of the game, if you play often, you'll make it to a leadership role -quickly-. I made Kadius Lieutenant in about three weeks with one of my favorite character, unfortunately, I also hate leadership roles, but since I like the clan at first, I'm dedicated, I often fall into the trap of accepting the leadership role, because, at first, it's cool, it's either you accept it or you are stuck with a bunch of players that don't know what to do and don't advance any story plots. So you take it, then it drives you nuts, then you hate the character, then you retire.

Recently, with yet another warrior-type, I fell into the same trap! Love the character, love the clan at first, love who I play with, so I accept the leadership role, it's all fun at first, but then I realize that I fell into the same corner yet again, start hating the clan, start hating my character, end up retiring yet another great character.

I don't believe one second when someone says that to become a leader, it's because the Staff trusts you, both times I've become a leader, actually, as the lieutenant of the Kadius, my staff leader at the time DID NOT EVEN KNOW who I was, imagine my surprise when I asked for my note reviews! Most often, like I said, what makes someone into a leader is how often they play.

So no, not all of us are made to be leaders, but often, we fall into a leadership role 'just cause' and by the time we realize that it's too late to back off, we've wasted yet another great character.

Like Bebop, if there's something I really dislike about Armageddon and why I'm avoiding it like the plague lately is the feeling that you have to log on a few hours a day else you let down players, be they your clanmates, your lovers, your friends, if you don't log in, you always have that thought in the back of your mind that you might be missing on something and that maybe you should log on for a few minutes.. Then a few minutes turn into hours and then it's all meh again.

SO ANYWAY, my point is that not all of us decides to become leaders just because we want power and leadership, sometimes, oftentimes for me, we just 'fall into it' until we hate it, then we retire because we just can't take it anymore and it makes us hate the game and see it as a job more than anything else, and unfortunately, playing the lone hunter all the time to avoid such roles get old, so we try a clan once in a while, just to keep falling back into leadership because clans are often empty and desperate for 'decent' players.

Another thing I've noticed is that many of the BIG leaders of clans often try and bend the rules and try their best to 'accomodate' you into a leadership role, it's like they don't want to accept that you just want to be a simple hunter or just a simple partisan in the clan, or maybe you just enjoy being a lone scout, why is it that everyone that joins a clan have to be turned into Sergeants and 'For Life' members of clans as quickly as possible, that's probably another reason for the many leaders-to-retirement problems?

[Malken]

Yah, so after my big ass post above, I want to say that there are times when it's a good thing that we have to send a request for storage,

Here's some examples of why it's a good thing that we need to request storage, instead of being able to retire whenever.

Someone wants to retire because they haven't seen their clan leader or Staff in a week and is growing bored. At least the clan staff can reply to him or her with something like, "Hey, I've been really busy this week, and so have Clan Leader X, I'll be done with my exams this week so I'll be much more available to the clan soon. Still want to retire or do you want to give it a few more days?"

Or someone is just bored with his character and sends in a request, his Staff leader replies with something like, "Your character is in the middle of an on-going plot at the moment, if you are willing to give it a few more days, I can promise you some exciting things for your character, but if not, I can understand and we'll find a way to 'store' it without disrupting the plot."

etc, etc... If we could just retire whenever, that doesn't give the chance to any Staff members to communicate with you first, or even know the reasons as to why you decided to retire, and, even if it's a game, I think it's just the nice and decent thing to do to allow them to a reason and/or chance to reply.

[Fathi]

Another thing I've noticed is that many of the BIG leaders of clans often try and bend the rules and try their best to 'accomodate' you into a leadership role, it's like they don't want to accept that you just want to be a simple hunter or just a simple partisan in the clan, or maybe you just enjoy being a lone scout, why is it that everyone that joins a clan have to be turned into Sergeants and 'For Life' members of clans as quickly as possible, that's probably another reason for the many leaders-to-retirement problems?

You bring up a lot of valid points, actually, and I'd like to clarify that what I meant for the football analogy was more for sponsored, higher-up leadership roles as opposed to the type that most PCs can attain just through rising in the ranks of clans.

I'd like to touch on this last part, actually, as it's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

It seems like in the past six months or so, I've seen more promotions to higher levels in more clans than before, sometimes after a ridiculously short amount of time.

A drive-by admin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of the reasoning behind this is the immortals are being less restrictive on these roles in order to give players the chance to experience them before the game ends. That, and I imagine they want all the clans to be well-staffed with leaders for the endgame itself, and if you have a history of keeping characters alive long, it's easy to see why someone might notice that and try to nudge you up the ladder.

So if you've felt ushered into positions higher up than you intended that PC to climb, especially lately, it might be because of that.

[Barzalene]

You all aren't big on gray areas, are you?
There's a difference between never stretching and taking on responsibility when you're not sure or, the other extremes of taking the roles and treating them like a marriage or taking roles whimsically and feeling no responsibility to follow through.

There's a difference between giving up a role because you're not constantly amused and giving it up because your grandma got run over by a train and requires your 24 hour care.

If grandma gets run over by a train, you retire your pc and don't give it a thought. If you're not enjoying the role you write your clan imms and give them the courtesy of saying, "Sorry this isn't working for me, can we wrap this up within the next few days so I can go do something else."

Saying that you can't retire leadership roles from the start menus is not the same as being shackled in ginka's basement. If ginka had a basement.
You can and should retire from roles you're really not enjoying, but you should give your fellow players the courtesy of not just walking out without warning to the people running your clan.

Also, the role you hate today, may be the best role you ever had tomorrow. Not being able to chuck it on a moment's frustration might be good not just for everyone else, but for you as well.

[Barzalene]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

Really good point. If implemented we'd need some check against this sort of behavior.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

Really good point. If implemented we'd need some check against this sort of behavior.

Perhaps make it so you can't retire a character until they've been played for a certain period of time, or you can't retire more than one character in an OOC month or something.

[Space Ace]

The main takeaway I've gotten from this thread is that "Common courtesy is not so common."

If you want to suddenly stop the game in progress, "take your ball and go home" because you don't like it, I suppose that's your prerogative.  Don't expect the rest of us left standing on the court staring at each other to want to play with you again after you walk home with the basketball.  That's not an elitist statement, it's human nature.   Your lack of courtesy and disrespect for the rest for us is the central problem with an instant-gratification retirement option.

Personally, I don't find role-playing the sudden departure of a 'key figure' because they got bored or retired very entertaining.  At least with the current system my PC gets some sort of notification that the figure has 'moved on' to other things and I can dutifully acknowledge they are gone and not bother with the subject any longer.   I appreciate the fact that the staff wants to oversee retirements to mitigate/prevent the rest of us having to deal with the mess you left behind by quitting.  The way I see it, the request for retirement system is more about keeping the game enjoyable for the rest of us than to inconvenience individual players with its lack of instant gratification.

[staggerlee]

The main takeaway I've gotten from this thread is that "Common courtesy is not so common."

Do keep in mind that people take extreme positions on forums that don't necessarily accurately portray their actions or feelings.

I kind of doubt that the community is split between people who out of responsibility are playing every day even though they hate it and people who abandon characters at the first sign of trouble.

Forums seem to exist to foster hair pulling, straw man arguments and red faced ranting.

[flurry]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

I'd hope if staff catches abuse like this, those people wouldn't have that automated storing option (or would automatically get average stats).

Suiciding or storing over stats is lame.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Automated storage will mean my in-play characters will have much better stats.

I'd hope if staff catches abuse like this, those people wouldn't have that automated storing option (or would automatically get average stats).

Suiciding or storing over stats is lame.

When my current character started, his stats were all average/slightly above average.  For some reason, I wanted him to have better, and rerolled him and all of his stats went down.  I was a little frustrated, but kept on keepin' on.  He's now shaping up to be one of my favorite characters I've played.  And yes, he has a job where stats matter, not a social-type character.

The moral of this story?  Stats don't mean squat for your enjoyment.  You don't have to be the strongest of the strong to do well.

[X-D]

First, Malken...Good job...I'd have said all that if I could have. But sadly, though I am a great speaker...in print, me idea no come out so good:)


Staggerlee

Just out of curiosity, how did you handle it?

Well...Lets go back what was it...9 years IRL, I made a dwarf, joined the byn, had a great time, when his year was up a Tor sarge recruited him as a red. This PC had no desire to rise in the ranks. But due to some IC events he was quickly left as the ONLY PC in Tor other then a certain well played Silver. After a month or so RL a staffer happened to take a bit of notice then poof, he was a sarge. Anyway, with this PC I took it and ran with it. Had a good time, Built Tor up all on his lonesome, even making money himself to pay his recruits. After about 7 months staff finally noticed that Tor had no imm or nobles BTW...and fixed that, even paying my PC back many thousands of coins and making him LT. He was killed in action, but it was really an unplanned suicide.

Winrothol, the PC actually wanted to become high rank, and made it to LT from nothing. But then some staff and noble changes made the house unplayable for me and unlivable for my PC...who then made off with his lover to eventual suicide.

Had a bynner pretty recently, all he wanted was to be a trooper. But sadly IC events forced him to take rank or risk watching all go to hell. He eventually retired from the clan.

I play my PC true to char. Every time. Unfortunatly, like Malken said, this often leads to unasked for work. And people that use the "Take the ball and go home" Thats not it, its "Leave the ball and go home" You can continue on with the game, just without your quarterback...hey, appoint a new one Duh.

Oh, and BTW, the only PCs I've ever stored out of the blue, one, not a leader, completly dead end in a clan he could not get out of with a clan imm I hated from before them being staff.

The other, clan imm retired, NO other PCs in clan and I was bored to tears. Both were wish up storage, on both I would have just walked them to certain death if staff would not have responded in a timely manner.

[GoodwinX]

And people that use the "Take the ball and go home" Thats not it, its "Leave the ball and go home" You can continue on with the game, just without your quarterback...hey, appoint a new one Duh.

You may not be taking the ball, but you're taking the play book. And sure the "coaches" may know all the same plays you do, but they aren't the ones who trained with your team members and learned all their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not saying you need to stick around to finish the football season if you suddenly decide you'd rather play basketball, but you should at least give the new QB a few words of encouragement and clue him in on which receivers do the best in the end zone.

[manonfire]

Fantastic idea, OP. To trump the 'omg, people will abuse this!' argument, there are plenty of abusable things in game that aren't often abused, simply due to caliber of person that's attracted to an RPI mud.

[Mood]

Okay, guys, the sports analogy is getting out of hand.

[jhunter]

I play my PC true to char. Every time. Unfortunatly, like Malken said, this often leads to unasked for work.

Exactly, my -pc- might take the job even if -I- OOCly don't want/or have time for the responsibility.

[Is Friday]

I would guess people would design character traits around your preferences regarding responsibility on an OOC level.

[X-D]

I would guess people would design character traits around your preferences regarding responsibility on an OOC level.

Yup, thats easy to do, simply make a rinthy merchant elf then move to the wastes and stay there, never join a clan, be a hermit...Oh...and make sure no PC ever lives longer then 2 RL weeks.


Bleh.

[Krath]

What X-D said. Just so we are clear, ANY Apped leadership roles, need to be approved before retiring,
Anything else, retire when you want.

[Is Friday]

You guys are so extreme. :\

[Good Gortok]

Characters specifically applied into a special role, such as House family members, should not be allowed to store without at least the consent of the clan imm. I think that's perfectly fair. I'd say that the same goes for characters who have risen into a leadership position such as sergeants and perhaps templars'/nobles' aides. The difference here is that if the player really doesn't want their character to earn such a rank, they should be able to avoid it by discussing it with their clan immortals. I doubt any imms would force a character into a position of responsibility beyond the players' desire with no other alternative available. I've personally never heard of anyone encountering "your character will now become a sergeant or we'll have the clan NPCs kill him, you have no say in the matter".

I would have just walked them to certain death if staff would not have responded in a timely manner.

I certainly know that feeling. I've suicided characters, and I've even done so after requesting storage. As wrong as I know that it is, if more than a day passes before my request is resolved I'll just go and have an accident. That's a whole day where I can't play, and if I have no loose ends and nobody who will miss my character much, I take matters into my own hands. I play to have fun, and as long as I'm not compromising the fun of anybody else by doing so, I'll save myself another day of not being able to play by feeding myself to a bahamet. I appreciate the request system and I realize that the staff wasn't born to solve our problems, but I don't believe I should have to wait sometimes 48 hours or more before I can play another character, unless the one I'm playing can't just disappear without any problems.

I always found it very odd that suiciding a character is so frowned upon when the alternative (storage) can take days and can potentially earn you bad account notes. The kind of player who would store a character at a whim would likely also suicide one, so I think allowing us to retire ourselves from the menu is a great idea. We play to have fun, and when a player isn't having fun, keeping them from moving on to another character is a great way to make our playerbase one head smaller.

[X-D]

I'd say that the same goes for characters who have risen into a leadership position such as sergeants and perhaps templars'/nobles' aides. The difference here is that if the player really doesn't want their character to earn such a rank, they should be able to avoid it by discussing it with their clan immortals. I doubt any imms would force a character into a position of responsibility beyond the players' desire with no other alternative available. I've personally never heard of anyone encountering "your character will now become a sergeant or we'll have the clan NPCs kill him, you have no say in the matter".

Your probobly right...BUT...that would just as easily result in suicide/storage as well. Its an OOC method that interrupts the natural progression of your PCs char development in an artificial manner. I mean, I know many people map out thier PCs entire personality from the start. But many of us don't. I myself start with a VERY basic concept. Toss it into the world and let it grow over time. This is something that works for me because it is NOT rare for me to keep a single PC from 6-24 months. This method, at least for me CAN keep that PC interesting the entire time.

[Aquarian]

Half a month later I know. Sorry.

How is it elitist to expect that those playing leadership roles will actually have some level of OOC responsibility toward the role they have asked to have, and been granted by the imms? People who store leadership characters on a whim, or just stop playing those characters because they don't feel like it, are screwing over other players: Other players who applied for that role, other players in leadership in that area of the game who need co-conspirators for plots, other players of minions. It's lame to screw other players OOCly.

People who don't like being expected to actually play the role they applied for should never apply for those roles in the first place. The imms are real clear on the fact that special leadership roles (family merchants, nobles, templars) are granted with the idea that players will contribute to the game world through them; it's not like this gets sprung on anyone, "oh surprise, your role includes work!"

If players don't want expectations, they should stick to playing indies or low-level minions and leave the leadership roles to those who are willing to do the work and shoulder the OOC responsibility.

And that OOC responsibility, by the way, includes being patient and waiting for a storage request to go through if the player just can't stand the character anymore.

I bash you all the time Gimf. I suck, you suck it's all good. You're entitled to hate me and not care about what I am about to say.

But for once I agree with everything you said right here.[/b]

I assholishly commend you for not pissing me off.

Shocking, I know. At least I'm honest.

/end semi-derail

I am 100% for having the option to retire a character in the menu. But I also say that Gimf is right. If you take the role, you should be prepared for the work. And you shouldn't be able to flush the toilet just because you made a turd that smells.