Gemmed vs. "mundanes" in Allanak

[Stroker]

I might be afraid of a Nazi guy of 300 lbs in real life if I'm sitting next to him, but if I'm a Vietnam vet with a shotgun, suddenly, that Nazi guy isn't so scary anymore.

What you don't know is that Nazi is the guy from Hitman and will kill you before you even think about doing him harm. That's the problem - you don't know HOW strong the magicker is.... or that Nazi. And if the OOC conventions give you doubt, think about this - any gemmer's probably spending most of their playtime twinking their skills in the temple. Chances are, you're going to die unless you have a mob behind you.

[Mood]

Not to mention the crimcode, which will probably instarape™ you.

[Stroker]

This is how I envision the relationship with magikers. It is based around a gut reaction that society has stomped into your brain. You don't view them as human. For the most people it is unthinkable to associate with them in private, and an invitation for social death to associate with them in public.

Rationalize less, let your gut feelings do more.

The only problem I see with this analogy is that it doesn't work entirely (which, of course, given that it IS an analogy is something of a self-evident truth). The problem I see is that Noble houses and the Templarate employ the magicker population EXTENSIVELY and without disguising their utilization. Especially the nobility - I hate having magickers waltz around in Oash uniforms claiming immunity from the Law. They are a fucking magicker, Oash should deny up and down any affiliation with them, and a soldier (unless paid handsomely by the certain house) should be able to question and rape the magicker. In my opinion, the magickers are worse than slaves, why should a noble interact with something that's so disgusting and vile and offensive. The templarate, which is far more aware of their talents than anyone else in the city, should have no qualms about employing magickers. But I feel that even their use by the templarate should be covert. You cannot have magickers save the world time and time again and continue to hate them. It's akin to Nazis saving your hometown from the undead. Eventually, you're going to have to say 'thanks.' The copper war was one such example - magickers and normals shoved together and forced to cooperate. When the ONLY food/water you have access to is magicker food/water, you're pretty much forced to either desert, eat the food, or die. And once you eat that food and don't die, your character will question the offensiveness of magickers.

I think that the current situation is a direct result of this contradiction - commoners are supposed hate/fear magickers, but the nobles and those above have free reign to use magickers at their leisure. I feel that the nobility and the templarate should be held responsible for their role-play (or lack there of). I, as a player or character, should not have to question the presence of a noble in a slum. It confuses me, so they have the power to ignore documentation because they have a special character? Does that give me power to ignore the docs? Can I go out twink all day and then go into the nearest vivaduan temple, get healed, get water, and get food? Why does a templar that just walked into a vivaduan temple pick up some crap that some rukkian made up and eat it? And what should my character's reaction be when he sees that happen?

Otherwise, Rindan's analogy is very sexy.

[jhunter]

It confuses me, so they have the power to ignore documentation because they have a special character? Does that give me power to ignore the docs?

Stone Elementalist (karma required)
Stone elementalists are mages who have given their lives to the practice of the elemental magicks of Ruk. They can eventually wield considerable power over all things which are composed of matter, even as far as altering an object's composition from one material to another.

The spells which stone elementalists learn always revolve around the earth. Ruk is the name of the elemental plane of earth, and is often mentioned in the spells of stone elementalists.

Stone elementalists are often employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their fellows. Stone elementalists can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and ease the tired feet of the burden of long journeys. Stone elementalists are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Fire Elementalist (karma required)
Elementalists of the sun are mages whose power centers around the element of Suk-krath, which is the blazing crimson sun. Sometimes called the "war mages," sun mages possess magicks which are devastating to others around them. For this reason sun mages are often feared and distrusted, and perhaps rightly so, for who would take up to learn magicks that were entirely battle-oriented?

The spells of sun elementalists typically invoke Suk-krath, which is the name of fire, the name of the Sun, and the name of the elemental plane of fire.

More than any other mage, sun elementalists are employed for purposes of combat. Although the elementalist him or herself may have certain goals in mind for their life, the fact remains that sun elementalists can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

Water Elementalist (karma required)
Elementalists of the water are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched dry world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey, despite the general bias against and fear of magick prevents many from admitting this.

Most magicks of water elementalists stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water elementalists are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water elementalists are powerful in subtler ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and even to drain the life force of other beings.

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

Wind Elementalist (karma required)

Wind elementalists are mages who follow the course of the everchanging breezes of Zalanthas. Like the wind, they are often felt but not seen, and can typically travel great distances at will. Even less than sun mages, however, wind elementalists are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his or her mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.

Wind elementalist spells often invoke the name of Whira, the elemental plane of air. The magicks involve becoming unseen, moving between planes of existence, and crossing large distances in the blink of an eye.

Nearly as much as water elementalists, wind elementalists are able to sell their spells for a good profit. A powerful wind elementalist can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they are often sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations. As a travelling companion, wind elementalists may be somewhat undependable--they will typically become very tired of "just walking," and may abandon any party with which they are journeying.

How again are those in the examples you gave -ignoring- the documentation?

Now I'm confused.

[Stroker]

How again are those in the examples you gave -ignoring- the documentation?

Through the power of magick.

[Rindan]

In nearly all warriors there exists some notion of honour and fairness, and often a vague conception of glory.

Oh shit, someone take my karma.  I have not been following the documentation.

Those help files have not been touched since its was okay to go kill NPCs in Tuluk for their sweet metal equipment.  Take those help files with a grain of salt.

[jhunter]

Unless the staff tells us otherwise, it's not up to -you- to decide what parts to use and what parts to ignore. I've never read anywhere where the staff has said there was anything wrong/incorrect with the elementalist documentation.
Just because there is a glaring error in one place it does not give you the right to pick and choose what documentation to follow as you see fit.

Nowhere is it documented that nobles and templars should -not- hire gemmed mages and it has been pretty widely accepted for a long time now.

[jhunter]

I find it pretty damned funny how when the documentation supports your position it's fine. But if it contradicts what you believe, then just take that documentation with a grain of salt.

[Stroker]

Nowhere is it documented that nobles and templars should -not- hire gemmed mages and it has been pretty widely accepted for a long time now.

But no one's saying that either; it should be done tactfully. Anyways, I didn't mean to distract this discussion to a debate of the veracity of the documentation. So, if I'm wrong - I'm wrong, but that's what I would like to see in noble or templarate/magicker interaction: some amount of secretiveness/concealment.

[jhunter]

Nowhere is it documented that nobles and templars should -not- hire gemmed mages and it has been pretty widely accepted for a long time now.

But no one's saying that either; it should be done tactfully. Anyways, I didn't mean to distract this discussion to a debate of the veracity of the documentation. So, if I'm wrong - I'm wrong, but that's what I would like to see in noble or templarate/magicker interaction: some amount of secretiveness/concealment.

I agree to being more secretive in regards to nobles with the exception of House Oash or the templarate. It's widely known that Oash hires gemmed and the templarate as well. Anyone else should be attempting to keep it as quiet as possible.

[spawnloser]

How PCs are reacting, however, is not something I know about, as I haven't played in Allanak for a while.  If they are reacting as you have indicated, however, those players should be slapped soundly about the head neck and shoulders.

Yeah, because there is NO plausible possible reason for a mundane to treat a gemmer in a pleasant manner.  :roll:

Oh, sarcasm?  Wonderful, it's not like everyone and their brother, sister, parents, grandparents, retarded step-child and a 3-legged dog can't do that too.

...

Honestly, the documentation says that magickers have certain traits, like Vivaduans being very employable, but it also says that magickers are not trusted and are feared.  I really like Rindan's analogy for how magickers should be treated too.  If you want to be pleasant to a magicker, you should be looked upon as a magicker lover... or to use Rindan's analogy, you should be looked on like someone in the real world would look upon a Nazi-lover.  Your social standing should plummet.  Your friends should become as uncomfortable around you as the majority of the population is around magickers, perhaps even suspect you of being one.

Sure, you can easily come up with a reason, but to do so openly is like shooting yourself in the foot socially.

[jhunter]

How PCs are reacting, however, is not something I know about, as I haven't played in Allanak for a while.  If they are reacting as you have indicated, however, those players should be slapped soundly about the head neck and shoulders.

Yeah, because there is NO plausible possible reason for a mundane to treat a gemmer in a pleasant manner.  :roll:

Oh, sarcasm?  Wonderful, it's not like everyone and their brother, sister, parents, grandparents, retarded step-child and a 3-legged dog can't do that too.

...

Honestly, the documentation says that magickers have certain traits, like Vivaduans being very employable, but it also says that magickers are not trusted and are feared.  I really like Rindan's analogy for how magickers should be treated too.  If you want to be pleasant to a magicker, you should be looked upon as a magicker lover... or to use Rindan's analogy, you should be looked on like someone in the real world would look upon a Nazi-lover.  Your social standing should plummet.  Your friends should become as uncomfortable around you as the majority of the population is around magickers, perhaps even suspect you of being one.

Sure, you can easily come up with a reason, but to do so openly is like shooting yourself in the foot socially.

If that's the case, then why does -anyone- socialize with or have anything to do with House Oash? Why is their compound located almost in the center of the city? What I'm saying is, if that is the case, don't you think that the staff would have put more in the documentation regarding House Oash and would've located their compound closer to the mages quarter and farther from the central portion of the city?
If what you guys are saying is true, I would think the documentation would reflect that and their geographical location within the city would as well.

Honestly, I'd have to say this is one of the biggest reasons that I can't wait for the new game.
Everyone has their own ideas of how things -should- be regarding magick and magickers. They have their own interpretations of the documentation regarding it. Most of the time the staff will not take a stance as to which is correct and intended and which is not. Unless it is seriously way outside of the documentation from what I've seen.

Some people have a dislike of magick and all things magickal and want their rp to be very mundane. These people are usually the ones taking the fear and distrust of magick to one extreme to mold the gameworld into what they want it to be. (And woe to those who do not interpret the documentation in any way that conflicts with that.) These are the same people that believe every mundane, regardless of locale should treat magick and magickers the same as the documentation says the Tuluki should.

Then you have those that see how there is a much broader range that can be interpreted from the documentation. These people like some magick in their gameworld, blended nicely (or not so nicely) with the mundane.  They like there to be fear and mistrust of magickers but believe that going to one extreme or another is a breach of the true spirit of the documentation and are -exceptions-. That in different locales, views and treatment of magickers and things magickal will be different.

Lastly, you have those that wish to play a magicker that is more typical of other settings. They want to play the exception to the documentation. They want to make friends with mundane pcs (or be the mundane pc that doesn't have any problem with magick or magickers) and basically get along with everyone regardless of class/race. Usually to the general irritation of the previous two types. They don't really care what the documentation says, they attempt to mold it into what they would like to play instead of dealing with things as the setting has been placed out.

[spawnloser]

House Oash?  They, like the other noble houses of Allanak ARE the social structure of Allanak, especially considering that they are one of the top tier houses.  Also, they hire magickers more than anyone else, but they don't have a huge stable of magickers by any means.  The only reason that the PC population in years past was heavily magicker was because they were the ONLY employment for magickers besides the Templarate.  Council of Allanaki Mages has changed that.

[Rindan]

I don't think House Oash says to the public "we are the magiker house!"  True, they certainly dip their hands into that mess more than most houses, and they have lots of magiker plots, but that is hardly the public face they put on things.  There are two things to realize.  

First, nobles really are not in a popularity contest to get the commoners to love them.  House Oash doesn't need to be the most loved to be a upper house.  If being loved made you a upper house, House Fale would be #1.  I am not saying you can totally ignore commoners, but winning the popularity contest isn't going to win you a top seat as a noble house.  Further, I would imagine that House Oash probably is one of the noble Houses that commoners like the least (as if there opinion matters) for the very reason that gemmed in Oash colors are more common.

Second, House Oash is not run by gemmed.  They employ gemmed, as do Templars.  Employing a gemmed is more like feeding a hunting dog.  A gemmed gets food, water, and things to make it happy so it works better, but when it comes down it, a gemmed isn't exactly operating by its own free will.  The Templarate and Noble Houses don't need to ask gemmed nicely to get things done if they don't want to.  Commoners see collared magikers working by the command those in power.  They also see displays that show that it is a relationship of owner and owned, not two equals.  Now, within the House itself there might be a more complex relationship going on, but as far as the public is concerned, magikers are collard and control just like an argosy Mek.  House Oash can employ magikers without loving them.

Now, what the exact relationship is behind the scene is for documentation and the leadership to decide.  The public face, IMO, should be one of keeping it low key.  A gemmed might wear house colors or work for a Templar, but that doesn't mean that people should be giving them high-fives in public and not expect people to react negatively.

I am not advocating not interacting with magikers.  I am saying that the social price to pay with BSing around with a magiker should be a whole hell of a lot higher than chatting with a 'rinth rat elf.  I do think that people are far too casual and indifferent about hanging out and being friendly with them in public.  There should be a social price that is paid when you buy your magiker buddy a drink in public and have a friendly chat with him.  Right now, I really don't see people paying much in the way of a social cost.

[jhunter]

I don't think House Oash says to the public "we are the magiker house!"

While it's maybe not intentional, I believe that's exactly what they're saying when they have gemmed mages trapsing about in Oashi uniforms. If they wanted to keep it low-key or make it appear as more of a master/slave appearance why put them in house uniforms, elevating them to the status of any other common house employee? It all seems pretty contradictory to me.
I don't have any problem with keeping things behind closed doors when dealing with mages and keeping it low-key in public, the problem is it isn't done that way by the templarate and House Oash. It is done right out in the open for everyone to see and know. If they're not going to keep it low-key, (which they aren't and it has been accepted as "the way it's done") whose to say that isn't the way it is intended for all when dealing with gemmed?
Certainly, noone would want people to know that they are dealing with any rogue/ungemmed magicker/psionicist/defiler but it appears to me that gemmed magickers fall somewhere in the middle of "avoid like the plague and keep quiet/get your torches and pitchforks" and "hey gemmer, let's go fuck".

[staggerlee]

Even if we could all agree that magickers should be totally terrifying and hated... there's a problem.   It's a role playing game, and naturally a lot of people are going to want to play the badass 'protagonist'.  

So even if 90% of the player base agreed that everyone else should be afraid of magickers, a whole bunch of them would still want their character to be exempt.  "But I'm Ash... I could totally kick their ass... it's everyone else that should be worried"

As someone pointed out earlier, the player base does a poor job of reflecting the virtual populace.  And that's pretty much always going to be true to varying degrees.

[Troicha]

Consider this:

Perhaps the templarate, when using gemmed, in public, with no dissembling, is sending the message of, "We're so badass, the devil himself doesn't scare us," and the templarate gets rid of rogue 'gickers, nilazi, and sorcerors not because they are dangerous, but rather disobedient.

[mansa]

Consider this:

Perhaps the templarate, when using gemmed, in public, with no dissembling, is sending the message of, "We're so badass, the devil himself doesn't scare us," and the templarate gets rid of rogue 'gickers, nilazi, and sorcerors not because they are dangerous, but rather disobedient.

When you see this every day, doesn't it make you think - MAGICKMUD?

[Vessol]

Rindan's analogy is awesome.

Probably the worse thing I ever saw IG that pissed me off a lot is when people defended gemmers in a conversation and called them people as well, and that is ALL I will say about that.

Gemmers should be confined to their own district realistically and to see a gemmer walking down the street outside of their quarter should arouse HEAVY suspicion. Only reason they should be allowed to leave really is under the employ of a templar or noble, as they are tools.

[Pale Horse]

Rindan's analogy is awesome.

Probably the worse thing I ever saw IG that pissed me off a lot is when people defended gemmers in a conversation and called them people as well, and that is ALL I will say about that.

Gemmers should be confined to their own district realistically and to see a gemmer walking down the street outside of their quarter should arouse HEAVY suspicion. Only reason they should be allowed to leave really is under the employ of a templar or noble, as they are tools.

I, too, remember the days of rarely seeing magickers about.  The only problem with that, I see, is that realistically, the Elementalist Quarter can't support the number of gemmed that it has documented in it.  They have to leave the Quarter for certain things.  While giving them more shops, a tavern, etc would make it so that they could hole up in their Quarter without seeing the rest of the city, it's been my impression that the Staff does not wish to make it that way.  They already spend lots of time in the temples, spam casting.  Do you really want to make it so that they can run out to a shop just a couple rooms away, grab something to eat, then run back with little to no time lost between casts?

[jhunter]

Gemmers should be confined to their own district realistically and to see a gemmer walking down the street outside of their quarter should arouse HEAVY suspicion. Only reason they should be allowed to leave really is under the employ of a templar or noble, as they are tools.

I fail to see how this increases interaction and -adds- anything to the game whatsoever. That sure as hell doesn't sound like -any- fun from either side of it, IMO.