Stun points need to be nerfed

[Ammut]

Alright, so I may be new to this whole concept of stun points even though I've played Arm for a few years (I like the idea, don't get me wrong).  One thing that really irritates me is the fact that you can be knocked out so easily it makes combat for non-combat classes absolutely ridiculous.

The filthy, one-handed urchin hits at you, but you dodge out of the way.
The filthy, one-handed urchin hits your head, nicking you.
Your vision goes black.


Ok, so obviously a blow to the head is something I should worry about.  Hitting the right spot might really knock someone out.  However, the fact of the matter is (or so it seems) you don't need to hit someone very hard in the head, you just need to hit them there.  This happens all over the body, not just the head.  Being knocked unconscious when you're winning a fight only to have your possessions stolen or left naked in an alley is not fair to both the player and the roleplaying that is going on.  And not to mention the fact that the npc will attack you multiple times, so if you're knocked out and wake up, they'll attack you again, resulting in yet another period where you're knocked out.

Another thing I've noticed is that people will drift toward larger, bludgeoning or axe weapons since they inflict more stun damage.  This is not because I think people are powergaming twinks, but that it just makes sense if you want to roleplay a brute

Yeah, I've been knocked in the head pretty hard irl while sparring.  It didn't knock me out.  In Arm v2.0, I'd really like to see the stun points nerfed so that they don't cause this to happen so often.  Obviously, being hit in the head at any point might make you lose half your stun points, but when you have 96/96 the whole fight it's a little pathetic to have them taken away in one, glancing blow.

I'd like to see how many others have had an issue with stun points and what your thoughts are on the matter.

[Cutthroat]

I'd like to see stun points be lost as the result of just these:

1) being dealt one extremely hard blow
2) being dealt multiple quick light to moderate blows
3) sap
(there's probably something in this list that would make sense that's not here, but feel free to add to it)

It seems that blows to the head regardless of power will deal a serious blow to your stun. I've never had my entire stun drained from full to empty in one blow but my characters have been hit pretty badly. It's valuable to know when to 'flee' before you're out cold, but on the flip side, you shouldn't be knocked out cold too easily.

[Fathi]

What bothers me more than hits to the head doing a lot of stun damage is the fact that wearing wearing armour doesn't seem to lessen the blow much.

The last time a PC of mine fought unarmed, a 'graze' to the neck still somehow did 15 stun damage despite the fact that the attacker was gloveless and my character was wearing chitin-plated leather armour. If the armour is good enough to absorb all but 1 HP of damage, I'd think it should be better at preventing stun loss, as well.

Edit: To clarify, I meant I'm not terribly bothered by large amounts of stun loss if you get punched in the head while wearing nothing on it. I think one or two-hit KOs are a bit much, but if you're fighting someone very good at unarmed combat or a dwarf, then I'd say it's more than believable to get laid out by 3-4 head/neck punches.

[mansa]

Going to negative hit points should take into account your current levels of stun points - so that if you're at negative hit points and your stun levels are still above 0, you are still aware and still awake and can still talk - you're just bleeding your guts out.

[a foreign presence]

I've always despised how easy it is to knock someone out. You can take a really strong dwarf warrior, possibly even a human, and at 0d 0h with a good store-bought bludgeoner they can knock any ordinary person out in one or two lucky blows. That's potential 1-shot death from a brand new non-karma character that any twink can (and many do) make. It's not necessarily unrealistic, I know, but it's just plain bad for the game. One-shots should be for karma guilds/races or very long-lived characters.

It's even worse with unarmed attacks. I've been hit for 60 stun damage by an unarmed dwarven burglar. A mul or a half-giant is practically guaranteed a 1-hit KO if they hit one of the weak spots.

Who bothers using sap when you can roll up an exceptional-strength warrior with utter ease, and just go crazy with two maces?

[spawnloser]

You know, I've never been knocked out by being brought to 0 stun in combat.  I don't think it's all as bad as you are making it out to be.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Then you haven't fought the right people.  It IS that bad.

[psionic fungus]

I disagree.  I've gotten in combat situations with a -wide- variety of humanoid and non-humanoid NPCs, and I have -never- been in a fight where I felt that I was knocked out too quickly.  If you are a pickpocket and you start a fight with a veteran guard, guess what, you might have a problem... You should be glad you're -alive- after instigating something like that.

As far as getting one-shot "kills" with bludgeoning weapons... Well, I just happen to think that it is quite appropriate.  Why do I say this?  Well, if you've seen j0ram's pic site you might recall my battered mug on there, right after I got smacked in the skull with a maglite.... Sorry kids, after you get brained with a blunt object YOU DO NOT CONTINUE FIGHTING.

Combat with deadly weapons is... DEADLY.  If the code reflects that, it is doing it's job.  The -only- issue I have with the stun code is the fact that getting hit on the arm or leg can knock you out... I find that rather silly.  Unless you are having your arm shattered and passing out from the shock, it simply shouldn't happen.

So a mul, dwarf, or a half-giant hit you on the head, with fists or a blunt object, this is a SERIOUS issue. The problem is not that your character has taken too much damage, it is that your character is in a situation where this can happen without repercussions on the other character. Avoid these types of situations (the ones were you are in dangerous lawless areas with hostile folk around you), and you will find yourself surviving on Zalanthas much longer.

I probably have more to say, but the boy is distracting me with his need for food, clothing, and love, so I must go.  As a final note, an additive system to replace stun, where bludgeoning hits (and psionics) added effects like disorientation, slowed responses, weakened attacks, etc. rather than simply subtracting down to zero and passing out, would my ideal solution.

[Spoon]

Let's get back on to unarmed combat, because that was what this thread was about.

I you haven't noticed it, then you really haven't been playing in the right situations. A human will lose around half their stun points from a 'light' blow to the head. This is just plain unrealistic, as being hit over the head with a heavy sword, axe or sparring weapon won't do as much stun damage in most cases.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I actually agree with you Psionic Fungus.  If an impossibly muscular subhuman brute hits you in the head, that is generally very, very bad.

My problem is cases where stun damages ends up being far more of a threat than hit point damage.  Because of the various problems that stun causes in situations that don't involve incredibly strong opponents, I'd rather see a mul do 70 points of hit point damage when he bludgeons you in the head, rather than 30 hit point damage and 70 stun damage.

[Twisted Minstrel]

I've got a human character who knocks out damn near anybody he has an unarmed boxing match against in two or three hits. I mean.... don't get me wrong, he's a freaking brute, but to me it just seems a 'little' unrealistic that the only people he can't knock out that quickly are muls and half-giants.

[Twisted Minstrel]

Y'know, I just thought about this, there should be a command for combat that lets an attacker concentrate on knocking his opponent out rather than killing them.... Because if I had a 'sid for every time I wound up killing someone (mercy on) just trying to knock them out. There could be penalties to it though, like dramatically less hits per round, as the attacker is waiting for that 'right' knockout shot. Anyone follow?

[Bebop]

Stun points erk me too, my first character died because of a lack of knowledge about them.  I've now been playing over two and a half years and I had a character die because of backstab.  Not because of HP like you may think, but because the stun was knocked off of me.  Oh and if you're contacting or barriering at the time of the incident.... just forget it.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

...lets an attacker concentrate on knocking his opponent out rather than killing them....

I follow, but rather than a command, I'd have it be something you toggle, like mercy.

[psionic fungus]

Well, barrier and such should have it's risks.

I would revise my statement, however, and say that armor should play a larger role in reducing stun damage.  Getting punched in the head when you have a fricking chitin and bone helmet on probably shouldn't rattle your cage quite so bad.  Other than the large amount of stun taken from blows to the body, arm, leg, foot, etc. and the lack of stun -reduction- (not like, the blow glances off or whatever, just the amount of stun being reduced overall) from armor, I think stun is no more broken than hitpoint and stamina.

Also... There was a kid at my high school who died from taking a single punch to the head... Went home, went to sleep, never woke up.  Imagine if -that- happened when you tried to sleep off your beat-down.

[Fathi]

I would revise my statement, however, and say that armor should play a larger role in reducing stun damage.  Getting punched in the head when you have a fricking chitin and bone helmet on probably shouldn't rattle your cage quite so bad.  Other than the large amount of stun taken from blows to the body, arm, leg, foot, etc. and the lack of stun -reduction- (not like, the blow glances off or whatever, just the amount of stun being reduced overall) from armor, I think stun is no more broken than hitpoint and stamina.

Eeeeexactly.

For example, if a mul/dwarf/giant hits you with -any- weapon on the head, I'd think it would cause a bit more stun damage than it does now. Even if it's not a bludgeoning weapon, it's a massively powerful swing from a weapon heavy enough to be wielded by a mul/dwarf/gaint, probably made from bone, wood, or rock.

Why the hell does a 'nick' to my Pc's helmeted head from an unarmed human do more stun damage than a solid hit or above from a mul with a sword?

[Twisted Minstrel]

...lets an attacker concentrate on knocking his opponent out rather than killing them....

I follow, but rather than a command, I'd have it be something you toggle, like mercy.

Thaaa's what I meant. -nod- Togglable command.

[Synthesis]

Stun damage dealt by unarmed combat is as it should be.

If you get solidly popped in the head or neck in a real fight, you're going down like a sack of potatoes.  Watch a UFC or Pride Fighting KO highlight reel some time.

If you're -good- at fighting, you rarely get hit hard enough to get knocked out in one hit.  If you suck, you're going down.  That's all there is to it.

If you're wearing -good- armor, you rarely get hit hard enough to get knocked out in one hit.  Normal people do -very- little damage unarmed, unless your fighting ability is atrocious.  If they're strong, then they'll probably pound your face in, whether you're wearing a helmet or not.

You should all be thankful that grappling isn't implemented, or all that armor you're trying to box in would suddenly become a huge liability.  After all, judo and jiu-jitsu were developed as it dawned on the samurai that it was a hell of a lot easier to close the distance to one's opponent, wrestle him to the ground by his gear, then finish him with a small blade or a choke while he was prone than it was to try to stand and cross blades.

[Coat of Arms]

Well, barrier and such should have it's risks.

That'd be fine if the system was moderately balanced. As it is, someone with very good endurance will lose maybe 10 of their maximum stun pool while having their barrier up, which is fine. Someone with below average will lose 30. Poor endurance means 40. I had a character with poor endurance and a stun pool of 80, so while barriered or in contact with someone, the maximum of their stun pool was a laughable 40. Not only is that barely enough to have a quick conversation through the Way, you're also going to crumble in a hard wind. Or one hit with a bludgeon weapon. I think stun reduction from psionics should be looked at, it shouldn't depend so extremely on your endurance and, seemingly, nothing else. At the very least let the barrier or contact skill itself lessen this reduction at higher levels; it currently doesn't.

The stun loss from bludgeoning weapons is pretty severe. It's probably fair enough in itself, the problem is that it's so much better than any other weapon type. If your character is really strong, using a bludgeoning weapon is vastly superior to a slashing or chopping weapon in just about any scenario as long as the character has the same skill level in all the weapon classes. An exceptionally strong human warrior can choose a sword and do damage somewhere in the 10-20 hit point range, maybe slightly more on vital spots like the head and neck. Or he can choose a mace and do 50-70 stun damage on such hits. If you're trying to kill someone, knocking them unconcious seals the deal. Any strong warrior can do it in a couple of blows with a mace, or 5-10 blows with a sword or axe. What would the powergamer pick?

As for unarmed combat, don't tell me that it's realistic that no human can endure 3-4 punches to the face. Even moderately strong combatants will make their opponents reel with any punch to a vital spot, no matter what. A few of those punches will bring all but the sturdiest of dwarves, or a mul or giant, to the floor unconcious. There's nothing that effectively decreases stun damage by a significant amount; you can wear an inch-thick chitin full-helm and have the constitution of a bull, and you're still pretty fucked if someone lands a handful of good punches on you.

I've seen two half-giants ever who didn't use the massive, spiked club. Why? Because it's twice as good as anything else.

[psionic fungus]

If anything, your complaints make me feel like slashing (and especially chopping) weapons should do additional stun damage, rather than toning down the stun of bludgeoning weapons (after all, they do less HP damage, right?).  It seems logical to me that chopping weapons could do the equivilent of slashing + bludgeoning, as well, would we then have everyone running around with polearms and axes?  Maybe, maybe not.

I guess the real solution is to slow down combat.  Yeah!  See, that way instead of the three rounds of combat it takes the bludgeoner to take your character down lasting five seconds, it could take... FIFTEEN!  Yeah, then there would be time to react and everything!  Of course, your character would still be fucked if the attacker got in a hit good enough to 'daze' you.

So it goes.

[Mr.B]

Hi, here's my opinion on unarmed combat and stun. It's just fine the way it is.  IRL one punch is all it takes to KO someone and in more then one spot on the face/head. A Helmet (as many Armageddon Helmets are open-faced and/or do not encapsulate the whole head) isn't going to do dick to help you. Helmets are to protect you from dangerous, arcing attacks to the skull. Sure, in a PK sense murdering the stun points of a character is a great way to work, but I'm sure there are creatures and beings that you can't hope to KO with your massive spiked club.. thus, putting you at a massive disadvantage when fighting them. Also, to do tons of stun you have to hit specific locations.. which if your damned good or lucky enough to hit often, you would be murdering with any weapon you chose really. Stun is just fine as it is, and serves as an extra dimension to consider when in combat which sets Armageddon apart from a bunch of other games.

[Morgenes]

Why the hell does a 'nick' to my Pc's helmeted head from an unarmed human do more stun damage than a solid hit or above from a mul with a sword?

Damage messages are based on the amount of physical damage done.  Unarmed combat does little physical damage and much stun.  Hence why you see 'nick' but still see a lot of stun damage.

[X-D]

Stun is actually something that I think is balanced properly and dearly hope nobody decides to screw around with it and fuck it all up.....cept for maybe the way...it really should cost less stun to keep barrier up at higher skills IMO.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Damage messages are based on the amount of physical damage done.  Unarmed combat does little physical damage and much stun.  Hence why you see 'nick' but still see a lot of stun damage.

It would be awesome if unarmed attacks had their own version of damage messaging based off of stun instead of physical damage.