Closing Parts of the Game

[Belenos]

The byn has zero risk of being closed.

[a strange shadow]

I'd just rather them be in the cities, than in their hometowns / tents.

The Tan Muark already do this. I have also noticed other tribal humans
finding reason to stay in the cities more often.

As for immortal support, even independants need some from time to time.
It's unreasonable to expect an active clan, no matter how self-sufficient it
usually is, to operate without any staff assistance whatsoever.

That said, with your past attitude toward the TM in general, I'm amazed that
you're willing to let us run rampant without staff guidance in the first place.

</sardonic>

[Fathi]

I'm with Forest Junkie and Delirium on this one. I think one of the biggest problems with the playerbase's current concentration is the glut of special-apped roles (i.e. delves, magickers) whose very nature makes risky or nearly impossible for them to interact with the majority of other characters on a frequent basis.

I don't want to turn this into another OMG MAGICKERS debate, but it IS logical to believe that if a cautious but karmaless player got an awesome ungemmed magicker or delf or halfing approved, they aren't going to run around as much in/near Allanak or Tuluk as they would if they had the karma option of rolling up another magicker/delf/halfling because they want their special character to stay alive.

Not that a player can't have the same sort of attachment to a mundane character, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I lean toward the belief that people are more apt to play conservatively to protect a role they had to spec-app in.

[Candy Quackenbush]

You know there's only about 9 million seconds remaining until Arm.1 absolves and its predecessor opens for play. Why all the pressure to consolidate the pbase and stuff? Let's just wait it out and enjoy the last of it while we can. Let people play what they want before it's too late I say.

[Forest Junkie]

Let people play what they want...

If they have the karma for it, sure. Otherwise, earn it like everyone else and stop apping for high-end characters just because the world is ending. That's the main reason why the cities are sparse, and it's the main reason nobles and templars no longer have any more underlings to play with. It's why clans are being closed, and why consolidation is happening.

It doesn't have to be that way though.

[Candy Quackenbush]

Yes but the game as we know it is closing soon. Forever. I don't enjoy the seemingly lack of PCs everywhere I go and I don't currently play a karma role but for some people their first time opportunity to play something is also their last. So I guess my philosophy is let them and we'll focus on how to better consolidate players in the forthcoming version. Why all the hype on "fixing things" right now? That's my only point.

[mansa]

Aren't all templars, nobles and family merchant characters special apps?

[Candy Quackenbush]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

[mansa]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app :D

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

For the sake of discussion, can you agree with this, Forest Junkie, Delirium, and Fathi?

[Malken]

Yes but the game as we know it is closing soon. Forever. I don't enjoy the seemingly lack of PCs everywhere I go and I don't currently play a karma role but for some people their first time opportunity to play something is also their last. So I guess my philosophy is let them and we'll focus on how to better consolidate players in the forthcoming version. Why all the hype on "fixing things" right now? That's my only point.

We don't know if the game will end in three months or six months or even longer.. Any game developer will tell you that the average delay is always at least three times longer than you had planned. Armageddon 2 has been delayed once already and I think it's safe to say (I really don't wish it, tho) that it will probably be delayed a second time.

I also don't think, Mansa, that taking an 'advertised' role is the same as special app'ing for something you want to play but don't have the karma for. (edited - Hmm, sorry, posted that after I read the last two messages.)

I must say that I was greatly surprised when my least than 7 months experienced friend got his special app for a mindbender approved recently. Even if the person is a good roleplayer, even me, in my 10 years on Arm, never had the chance to play one, heh. (Not that I ever special app'ed for one, but I really thought that I never had a chance with my puny two little karma or so.)

[Candy Quackenbush]

In even the most outlandish scenario Arm.1 is none the less set to be shelved.  Again I say.....

for some people their first time opportunity to play [various karma roles] is also their last.

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like? Well there are some people who haven't and whether the mud is going down in 3 months or 4 it's still not much time left to try something you'll never have the opportunity to again.

[Forest Junkie]

There is a difference between a sponsored role and a special application, in my opinion.

Special applications are for players who lack the karma for a role, yet want to play the role anyway.

Sponsored roles are for players who'd like to be nobles, templars, or family merchants.

I know this isn't necessarily true, though current definitions and differences between both are ambiguous, at best.

mansa, are we agreeing that there's a problem, but disagreeing over what the problem is?

[Forest Junkie]

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like?

No, I'm opposed because it's ruining the game. Plots can't continue without players. The cities are practically dead.

[Gimfalisette]

There has already been a general reduction of noble, templar, and merchant family member special-approval characters in game. There doesn't need to be a further reduction. The quantity of each of these types currently in game is the bare minimum needed to provide upper-crusty leadership for the game. And by bare minimum I mean that each of the 2 big cities currently has 1 to 2 active templars, 2 to 3 active nobles, and each of the 3 GMHs has only 1 to 2 active family members AFAIK. This is in a playerbase where we still have over 200 unique accounts logging in per week; that's less than 10% of characters being in these special-approval leadership roles.

[mansa]

There is a difference between a sponsored role and a special application, in my opinion.

Special applications are for players who lack the karma for a role, yet want to play the role anyway.

Sponsored roles are for players who'd like to be nobles, templars, or family merchants.

I know this isn't necessarily true, though current definitions and differences between both are ambiguous, at best.

mansa, are we agreeing that there's a problem, but disagreeing over what the problem is?

I'm asking to clarify what you view the problem is.  You've done it.  Thanks!  

We've had the discussion as to the problems of karma and special apps over here:  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25956

Let's try and stick to actual roles, clans, and areas of the game, rather than guilds and classes for this discussion in this thread.  I think that will keep things on a steady beat.

[Forest Junkie]

That's just it - I don't think that clans, guilds, cities, or entire areas should be shut down.

I think that closing down special applications for the remainder of this mud's time is the answer to all of our problems, not limiting the amount of clans we can join.

[Gimfalisette]

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like? Well there are some people who haven't and whether the mud is going down in 3 months or 4 it's still not much time left to try something you'll never have the opportunity to again.

I have never played a mindbender in this version of ARM, and I never will. But you know what? I'm pretty sure we'll have mindbenders in 2.ARM, so eventually I'll maybe get to play one.

Ditto on the elementalists...there WILL be magick in 2.ARM. Sure there will be some changes, but seriously...it's not like these roles are just going away. The "but I'll never get to play it!" rationale is really quite flimsy when it comes to magickers.

The only place where this rationale works is karma races that won't be around in 2.ARM. But come on, we all KNOW that it's not special apps for desert elves, half-giants, and muls that the imms are being flooded with.

[mansa]

The immortals have already limited the amount of clans you can join, and they will continue to do so, as they stop being interested in the old game, and work more on the new game.  That's what I think.

The Armageddon Staff have stopped the old game.  There is nothing new that will happen in your clans.  You cannot create a new clan of players to join.  You cannot create a gambling house in the 'rinth.  It's not going to happen.

The feeling that the world isn't alive and changeable really sucks.  It feels like I'm playing World of Warcraft, without the levels, graphics, and players.

You can't go out there and let House Borsail, or House Oash fall to the second tier of nobility.  You can't modify the game world to do what you want to do.  It's dead.  There's no saving it.

So, what do you do?  You create characters that will help destroy the world.  You create characters that can cause the most damage, because that's what the game is all about now - breaking the world.


[prediction]
The game's going to filter itself into two basic camps:  Fighters in Allanak and Fighters in Tuluk, and Desert Elf Magickers.

What's terrible is that Tuluk's going to have a fighting team of about 6 pcs, and Allanak will have about 40 pcs, just like the Copper Wars.  [/prediction]

[manonfire]

Crossposted from the Odd Urges thread, from April 11th.

Destroy Tuluk and consolidate the playerbase for the upcoming apocalypse.

I still completely support this idea.

[Gimfalisette]

mansa, first, I love you, and I've always enjoyed playing with you, and I love your dedication to the quality of this game.

Second, I think you're being really overly pessimistic and you're choosing to focus on the non-fun, broken parts of the game. Are there some non-fun, broken things? Sure there are, like anything in life. Does that mean the whole thing sucks and doesn't work and it's a failure? No, it doesn't.

I see a lot of potential for the players to still do things in this version of ARM, and have a lot of fun doing those things. Can we overthrow House Borsail? No, but...it's never really been all that realistic to overthrow Borsail, has it?

However, there are a LOT of other things players can do to keep the fun going. For example:

Create Scenes
When was the last time you publicly humiliated an elf? or a Bynner? or a [insert opposite city state here]-i? When was the last time your character got smashingly drunk and stood on a table, pulling their kilt over their head and singing at the top of their lungs? When was the last time you did anything to create a fun scene that would entertain and involve other characters? Try it. It's fun.

Do Stuff In Public
Have that private conversation at a table in the tavern, instead of at your apartment/barracks/estate. Use the tavern backroom for PG-13 nookie with your significant other. Cook at the tavern grill. Have a lesson with your underlings while standing in a public spot. Be part of the world being alive.

Throw RPTs
RPTs are so easy to do, really. Pick a time and a place and a reason to have one and then let people know about it on the in-game boards and the forums. You don't have to have a special reason to have an RPT, you just have to want to get people together for some fun. RPT ideas: Drinking competition, brawling, strip/exotic dance show, auction, bardic competition, hunting competition, joke/story time, gambling, card gaming, etc.

Special App a Mundane Character
Want to play something different, that's not yet another rogue magicker in the sands? (*snicker*) Maybe some people should special-app mundane characters with imm-enhanced skills! (Never know, it could work.) You've never played a 20-day warrior, you say? App for it!

Interact With Newbs
I'm still seeing a LOT of newbs coming through. Yay for newbs, we need them, let's keep them and addict them to Crackageddon! When I meet a newb, I always make a point to interact with them as extensively as possible, as ICly as possible...and yet as OOCly gently as possible. This means I'm probably ICly abusing them in some way, while trying to teach them about the gameworld and coded commands, while also leaving them alive and with all their coins in their pocket, while also telling them where to join the Byn.

Join a Clan
If your character is independent, maybe this bears re-thinking. Indies aren't generally at the heart of plots. And yes, playing indie means a lot more freedom, but it often means less contribution to the gameworld and other players, as well. Personally, I think it's worth dealing with clan restrictions in order to create more fun around me.

Meet Some New Characters
Has your character (general you, not just you mansa, but everyone) been around for a really long time and seen a lot of characters come and go, leaving you kind of jaded? Maybe you should make an OOC decision that your character needs a new friend or lover or business partner or enemy. And then go LOOK for that character, wherever you can. Travel the Known World to find this other character. You'll meet a lot of fresh faces, your search might not be successful, but the world will feel more alive while you're doing it.

Do Something Different
If you're (general you, not just you mansa, but everyone) not having fun in your role...sheesh, retire and do something else! A new role can put a lot of new, fresh energy into the gameworld. An old role can feel like you're stuck and things are dead. So shake it up and move on.

[X-D]

I'm not even going to reply to any posts on this thread. Except to state. If I had a dollar for every thread and post about dwindling playerbase, the need to consolidate etc, I'd be able to buy I nice shiny new motercycle.


Fact is, that over the years I, and I'm sure some others have noticed an ebb and flow of players.

sept-dec are normaly the peak numbers, with a dip at the end of dec, increases again for a while till about march, then a steady drop into and through the summer.

I've played for...what, nearly fifteen years now, and it has been the same, year in and year out.


Each year our averages have increased though, I can tell you that as well.

Me, this time of the year, I see 40-50 people on at peak, Shit, I'm amazed, it was not that long ago and this time of the year would have 16-30 at peak.

Last fall I was seeing into the 70s+ In 2003 at the same time it never broke 50 that I saw.

My answer is..calm down, have some tea and realize this is normal, numbers will start going up again in a couple months.

[Adhira]

Mansa wrote:

The immortals have already limited the amount of clans you can join, and they will continue to do so, as they stop being interested in the old game, and work more on the new game. That's what I think.

The Armageddon Staff have stopped the old game. There is nothing new that will happen in your clans. You cannot create a new clan of players to join. You cannot create a gambling house in the 'rinth. It's not going to happen.

I feel a need to respond to this. While you are entitled to your own opinions, stating them in a way that they appear as fact is just misleading others.

Clans have been closed. At this point in time there are NO PLANS to close others. It is a gross exaggeration to say that staff have stopped working on Armageddon as it exists now.

Staff are very active overseeing their clans, facilitating plots and doing the work that Arm 1 requires. While staff are also working on Arm 2 at the same time the nature of that work is such that different groups of staff have different inputs at variable times, there is no mass exodus of the workforce to the new version.

There is no reason that someone cannot create player formed clans in the exact same way they could a year ago.  I would be very sad if my clan members thought that there was nothing new that could be achieved, or would be happening for them. I've put a lot of time and thought into those clans, including facilitating ways for the players to be the drivers and implementors, as well as setting the paths for some interesting (hopefully) future developments.

For myself I average somewhere between 20 - 30 hours per week working on Arm version 1. Be that answering emails, reading boards, posting on the immortal board about current topics, overseeing plots or catching up with where my clans are.

Staff came on board to work on Armageddon 1. We have a passion for this game, we intend to carry over the flavour, passion and integrity of Arm 1 into the new version.

In the meantime, I have no intention of letting Armageddon 1 degenerate or languish through lack of staff attention. I signed on to help bring this world to life, and I intend to see it out with that same commitment and drive.

[Sanvean]

Adhira has put it eloquently and well.  Having just come from a week of disucssion that involved both versions of the game, I've got to agree that there is still a lot in slate for the world as you currently know it.

[Fathi]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

For the sake of discussion, can you agree with this, Forest Junkie, Delirium, and Fathi?

Suppose I'm a bit late, but I do see a difference.

Mainly in that if 5 people with good account notes and good history all decided to app delves and they had good backgrounds and solid character concepts, I'd wager at least more than half of them would be approved.

Whereas if those same 5 people all decided they wanted to app House Kadius family members when there wasn't an ad for it, there's a good chance not even one would be approved.

The reason for this is that the staff more closely controls clan leadership roles than normal special apps, even though--like Junkie is arguing--a flood of isolated character types can have just as averse an effect as a flood of leadership characters with no peons.

[Vessol]

I agreed with everything Mansa said.