Closing Parts of the Game

[LauraMars]

Mansa recently wrote a post in Ask the Staff, suggesting some things, not all of which I need or want to talk about.

I just mainly want to bring up his suggestion that certain parts of the game be closed.  That's an interesting suggestion to me, but honestly, I couldn't think of what area I'd close to the players.  Without Tuluk, what will Allanak spy on?  Without Allanak, what will Tuluk write mean songs about?  Without Luirs, where does Kurac go?  Without Red Storm...well, maybe we could close down Red Storm.

Anyway, if you could close down a section/area/city in the game so that there would be more players in other parts of the world, would you? And which part would it be?  And why?

Discuss.

Just one rule -

No-one is allowed to turn thread into Allanak vs Tuluk argument.

[Folker]

I do believe a portion of this is already going on. Not closing down per se, but a unification of a sort. I am guessing it's much more complicated now to be part of a clan that is 'completely' seperated from the rest of the community. Probably not impossible, but takes some effort to do. But ofcourse ... the details are as always IC. To be honest, I'm kind of curious how this thread will be discussed, without someone stumbling into a version of a plot that's already in progress, or is nearby it.




eq. All Borsails are wiped out by "I hate borsail" Whiran sikrit clan. =).

[Candy Quackenbush]

I don't think closing down an area like Red Storm would be very useful because if nobody can go there then they still have a gazillion others rooms in the desert to explore. I only see shutting down certain clans as useful for consolidation. But then we have to ask if it's fair to shut any clans down. I sort of like knowing that I have the chance to try out a halfling, a desert elf, a Guilder, and so on before it all goes up in smoke. So I guess I'd rather see attempts to keep the playerbase of the future Arm consolidated and not overly spread out than doing that here since it won't matter for much longer anyway.

[LauraMars]

Yeah, I really can't think of any clans I'd shut down...all the merchant houses are looking awesome, the desert elves are reported to be exciting, rinth likewise...we just closed down that mage clan, but I don't think that decreased the gemmer population a huge amount.  

And Tuluk doesn't have a lot of clans.  Sun Legions, and Tuluki Nobles is about it.  Tuluk's been pretty stagnant every time I've played there in the past six months, but closing the city might hurt endgame plots.

Maybe if the Byn was closed.  *ducks behind a table*

[ale six]

A couple clans have already been shut down or allowed to become inactive in Allanak lately... Borsail, Atrium, Oash, and CAM, that I know of. Not sure what the eastside rinther clans are like lately either.

And I think that the affect of the closings has been noticeable. You can really tell there aren't as many clans operating as there used to be. On the other hand, it does give what clans are left more chances to flourish and become a little more active and noticed, so maybe it's not all bad.

Really, I completely disagree with this notion we should just give up on the game and shut it down. It's silly.

[Candy Quackenbush]

Wow I didn't realize how many clans have closed already.

I think the Byn is like the staple food of Arm though, it's part of the bare essentials. I could see them getting a lot of use in the remaining days ahead so why close them of all clans down?

If there are no PCs in a given clan now's a great time to shut that one down. But I don't know of any clans which are entirely empty. Quite the contrary in fact!

It's the same old argument though. Which clans could be shut down to consolidate the playerbase? Before the MUD was planned to be built anew people were talking about lopping off a few clans, and that's when more people were playing. At this point, will downsizing really matter anyway? On the occasions when I can't find a soul in both Tuluk and Allanak I have to wonder if shutting down all but 2 clans even would really make a difference.

[Bebop]

The game is going down soon anyway, I don't see what can really be accomplished at this point by any clan only the IMMs knwo that and will ultimately know how the clans are going to be involved.  Currently we really don't have enough regular players to sustain every level of teh game anymore at least I don't think.  As well, alot of the people in Tuluk ending up being nobles with no underlings to manage.  I definitely don't think whole cities should be closed but I could see for instance seeing some of the clans therein closed.  But part of me thinks at this point might as well just leave things how they are.

[Marauder Moe]

Final exams!  Graduation!  Moving out of dorms/apartment!  Summer vacation!

Population isn't low because the game is closing, people.  Not only that, but Mansa is just plain wrong about 30 people peaks.  Yes, maybe sometimes it gets to 30 people during peak hours, but it peaks at 40-50 still.  Actually I think Mansa is wrong about a lot of things in his thread (though admitedly, not everything).

I, for one, am still having fun.

[Ghost]

I think closing down the parts of the game would solve the problem of spread playerbase, but unfortunately, applying it now to make an effect is nearly impossible.

I think playerbase is concentrated mainly in D-elves, Allanak, and Rinth.  Tuluk, from the way people post about it in GDB, seem to have relatively lower PCs, maybe that is wrong.  Anyway...

The thing is, all of these four major PC centers have something important for the longterm to do.  Closing down any of them will have much more of a negative effect on the game, than just the innocent idea of moving players to somewhere else.

Also, closing a fraction of the game and forcing the players in that area to store their PCs is not really a good solution, because some of those players will rather choose not to make another character till Arm2.  I, for one, am playing my final character in the game for example.

All in all, closing the game entirely and running a beta testers is a better idea than closing parts of the game to me.

[Vanth]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26295

Those are the recent official closings.

[Marauder Moe]

That's depressing.

[Janna]

Closing this game until the new one opens is just plain wrong. I love this game, I've played it nearly every single day before and after the anouncement came. Nothing changed, its still a great game. The new one will also be just as great.

I really dislike that a bunch of people just picked up and walked off because of the change, but, what can you do ..their choice (see you when you come back) Numbers are also a little low based on what was already mentioned so far in the thread. Summer vacations and such but we still do hit 40 to 50 players at peak.

Honestly, everyone who has been complaining and screaming about lack of plots or lack of action and so on..well..make your own.  :shock: It is possible. Tuluk and Allanak are both very much alive and well from all the plots I've personally seen going with my very basic, mundane PC. Furthermore, without any IC info, if even a third of what I've been getting into IG happens. Holy shit the end is going to -ROCK-.

To end my little run on and actually get back to the point of the thread (Sorry Laura  :oops: ) If I absolutely -had- to close something, I'd likely close the Halflings and Desert tribes. My reason would be that I think the most action for the end will take place within the major cities at the end, and we could really use those PC's to make it even bigger.

[mansa]

I would remove Luir's Outpost and Red Storm as starting areas.

I would shut down the Bard's Circle as an active clan.  People can be a Bard, but not expect any immortal support.

I would close the Tan Muark, but keep Tan Muark PCs if they want.  Same with the other Tribal Humans.  I'd just rather them be in the cities, than in their hometowns / tents.  Again, no immortal support, just that your background - you belong to this tribe.

I would keep the 3 merchant houses open, but I would force the Kurac players to work out of the cities, rather than out of Luir's Outpost.

I would keep 2 nobles in Tuluk.

I would update this page with what's closed and not:
http://www.armageddon.org/ic/

This leaves open:
Desert Elves and their tribes
T'zai Byn
The Guild
Tor - Fale - Arm of Dragon
2 Tuluk Nobles - Tuluk Army
Kadius, Salarr, Kurac

People can come and go to Luir's Outpost and to Red Storm, but the focus wouldn't be to stay there.

[Nao]

I would close the Tan Muark, but keep Tan Muark PCs if they want.  Same with the other Tribal Humans.  I'd just rather them be in the cities, than in their hometowns / tents.  Again, no immortal support, just that your background - you belong to this tribe.
.

Except for the Tan Muark PCs that have been around for ages, everyone should be spending most of their time in the cities and only go back to their lands on occasion.

[Gimfalisette]

I would shut down the Bard's Circle as an active clan.  People can be a Bard, but not expect any immortal support.

Bards of the Circle already, currently, don't get any imm support. There's no reason to close the clan to lighten a workload that doesn't exist. It's just not an option, in Tuluk, to say someone can "play a bard" but not be of the Circle; it's just...not. Bards of the Circle are integral to political play in Tuluk, they are a huge part of what makes Tuluk itself, and they are also important to the interplay between the cities.

Your other suggestions I can't say I disagree with, though I know for fact that there have not been anywhere close to 6 PC nobles (as there were supposed to be) in Tuluk in months. Generally there have been 2 to 3 active, so that part of your schema is really already done.

If Tuluk didn't have a significant part to play in the end-times plot, then I would say, with great sadness, "close Tuluk." (Yes, as much as I am the biggest Tuluk rah-rah on this board, that is what I would say.) But Tuluk, from what I've seen, is necessary to the end-times plot, and thus it needs some PCs in it. Likewise Allanak, the 'rinth, and the desert elves are involved in the end-times plot. Can't close Luir's, because of Kurac, unless as mansa suggests the PCs are just moved to operate completely out of Tuluk and Allanak...which I think is a good suggestion. Can't close the Byn (Laura was just joking about that), because the Byn is the #1 place for newbies to go, and thus it's essential to the newb-friendliness of the game.

[Cale_Knight]

Geez, it seems like 'nak is being prepped to be shut down entirely.

That makes Cale a sad panda.

[mansa]

Can't close the Byn (Laura was just joking about that), because the Byn is the #1 place for newbies to go, and thus it's essential to the newb-friendliness of the game.

The Byn is the most fun clan in the game...

[Vanth]

Allanak is not being prepped to be closed down.  Both cities have an equal number of nobles and templars, and will continue to, for the foreseeable future, with the usual give or take for turnover.

[Jherlen]

I can understand closing clans that have died off due to PC/staff attrition (as seemed to be the case with Oash and Borsail), but why do we want to shut down entire areas of the game? That seems silly to me.

There is room for any PC in any clan in any area of the game to get involved in plots, just as there always has been. We don't need to close anything up or force PCs to only go certain places.

[mansa]

When I mean shut down, I don't mean close and lock the gates and prevent pcs from visiting.

I mean more like preventing pcs from staying in those areas as their sole enjoyment of the game.  Much like how Cenyr is right now.


And, Jherlen, I strongly disagree with your last statement.  You cannot play a noble character when you have nobody to boss around.  You can't get any plotting when there is nobody to interact with.  You can't go hunting and you can't go slumming, because of your social status and the reaction to the world that would happen when  you show up in the guild bar.  That's why we play the game - to have a realistic role.  That's why we gain karma - to play the role within it's own rights and within the context of the world.

Therefore, you need players in the game to have social status.  You need players in the game to make the game the game.  You can't just have one templar in one city, with no thieves, with 2 kadian merchants and one hunter, and a magicker.  That's not an adventure.  That's not fun.

[Malken]

I think that one of the main problem we are currently seeing is that there might be too many "leadership" roles being offered and not enough people to be hired by said leaders.

I see a lot of good leaders who are desperate for hunters, warriors, aides, etc.. But there isn't that many to play them lately.

So I think what happens is that you have many great leaders who can't find anyone to serve under them, they either get bored (which leads to them dying because at some point they have no choices but to do what needs to be done themselves), retire or log less, so then that role is gone and being offered again, someone take it, then the same problem happens..

I don't really know what the solution is right now, even if you offer someone a thousand 'sids a month to work for you, chances are that they prefer to be on their own or they already work for the well-established character, because at this point it's not a matter of money anymore. (Again, that's from a Tuluk point of view).

Saying that there is room for any PC in any clan is true, but the problem it causes is that you have dozen of clans with one or two PCs in them instead of half a dozen clans with half a dozen PCs in them.

It's also probably much easier for the admins to "involve" a half dozen clans with half a dozen PCs in them in the major plots than it is for them to involve a dozen clans with just one or two PCs in each, no?

[Forest Junkie]

Remove the option to special app. Problem solved.

[V1agraKank]

Certainly I could entertain the idea of closing parts of the game if I thought it would have the effect of concentrating the playerbase.  Logic and common sense seem to indicate that it would have this effect.

However I believe that the net result would be a lower concentration of players, because I think plenty of people would leave if we started shutting the game down.  

My belief is that more space = more players.
Less space = less players.

[Delirium]

Remove the option to special app. Problem solved.

[Yokunama]

Can't close the Byn (Laura was just joking about that), because the Byn is the #1 place for newbies to go, and thus it's essential to the newb-friendliness of the game.

The Byn is the most fun clan in the game...

Agree.

[Belenos]

The byn has zero risk of being closed.

[a strange shadow]

I'd just rather them be in the cities, than in their hometowns / tents.

The Tan Muark already do this. I have also noticed other tribal humans
finding reason to stay in the cities more often.

As for immortal support, even independants need some from time to time.
It's unreasonable to expect an active clan, no matter how self-sufficient it
usually is, to operate without any staff assistance whatsoever.

That said, with your past attitude toward the TM in general, I'm amazed that
you're willing to let us run rampant without staff guidance in the first place.

</sardonic>

[Fathi]

I'm with Forest Junkie and Delirium on this one. I think one of the biggest problems with the playerbase's current concentration is the glut of special-apped roles (i.e. delves, magickers) whose very nature makes risky or nearly impossible for them to interact with the majority of other characters on a frequent basis.

I don't want to turn this into another OMG MAGICKERS debate, but it IS logical to believe that if a cautious but karmaless player got an awesome ungemmed magicker or delf or halfing approved, they aren't going to run around as much in/near Allanak or Tuluk as they would if they had the karma option of rolling up another magicker/delf/halfling because they want their special character to stay alive.

Not that a player can't have the same sort of attachment to a mundane character, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I lean toward the belief that people are more apt to play conservatively to protect a role they had to spec-app in.

[Candy Quackenbush]

You know there's only about 9 million seconds remaining until Arm.1 absolves and its predecessor opens for play. Why all the pressure to consolidate the pbase and stuff? Let's just wait it out and enjoy the last of it while we can. Let people play what they want before it's too late I say.

[Forest Junkie]

Let people play what they want...

If they have the karma for it, sure. Otherwise, earn it like everyone else and stop apping for high-end characters just because the world is ending. That's the main reason why the cities are sparse, and it's the main reason nobles and templars no longer have any more underlings to play with. It's why clans are being closed, and why consolidation is happening.

It doesn't have to be that way though.

[Candy Quackenbush]

Yes but the game as we know it is closing soon. Forever. I don't enjoy the seemingly lack of PCs everywhere I go and I don't currently play a karma role but for some people their first time opportunity to play something is also their last. So I guess my philosophy is let them and we'll focus on how to better consolidate players in the forthcoming version. Why all the hype on "fixing things" right now? That's my only point.

[mansa]

Aren't all templars, nobles and family merchant characters special apps?

[Candy Quackenbush]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

[mansa]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app :D

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

For the sake of discussion, can you agree with this, Forest Junkie, Delirium, and Fathi?

[Malken]

Yes but the game as we know it is closing soon. Forever. I don't enjoy the seemingly lack of PCs everywhere I go and I don't currently play a karma role but for some people their first time opportunity to play something is also their last. So I guess my philosophy is let them and we'll focus on how to better consolidate players in the forthcoming version. Why all the hype on "fixing things" right now? That's my only point.

We don't know if the game will end in three months or six months or even longer.. Any game developer will tell you that the average delay is always at least three times longer than you had planned. Armageddon 2 has been delayed once already and I think it's safe to say (I really don't wish it, tho) that it will probably be delayed a second time.

I also don't think, Mansa, that taking an 'advertised' role is the same as special app'ing for something you want to play but don't have the karma for. (edited - Hmm, sorry, posted that after I read the last two messages.)

I must say that I was greatly surprised when my least than 7 months experienced friend got his special app for a mindbender approved recently. Even if the person is a good roleplayer, even me, in my 10 years on Arm, never had the chance to play one, heh. (Not that I ever special app'ed for one, but I really thought that I never had a chance with my puny two little karma or so.)

[Candy Quackenbush]

In even the most outlandish scenario Arm.1 is none the less set to be shelved.  Again I say.....

for some people their first time opportunity to play [various karma roles] is also their last.

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like? Well there are some people who haven't and whether the mud is going down in 3 months or 4 it's still not much time left to try something you'll never have the opportunity to again.

[Forest Junkie]

There is a difference between a sponsored role and a special application, in my opinion.

Special applications are for players who lack the karma for a role, yet want to play the role anyway.

Sponsored roles are for players who'd like to be nobles, templars, or family merchants.

I know this isn't necessarily true, though current definitions and differences between both are ambiguous, at best.

mansa, are we agreeing that there's a problem, but disagreeing over what the problem is?

[Forest Junkie]

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like?

No, I'm opposed because it's ruining the game. Plots can't continue without players. The cities are practically dead.

[Gimfalisette]

There has already been a general reduction of noble, templar, and merchant family member special-approval characters in game. There doesn't need to be a further reduction. The quantity of each of these types currently in game is the bare minimum needed to provide upper-crusty leadership for the game. And by bare minimum I mean that each of the 2 big cities currently has 1 to 2 active templars, 2 to 3 active nobles, and each of the 3 GMHs has only 1 to 2 active family members AFAIK. This is in a playerbase where we still have over 200 unique accounts logging in per week; that's less than 10% of characters being in these special-approval leadership roles.

[mansa]

There is a difference between a sponsored role and a special application, in my opinion.

Special applications are for players who lack the karma for a role, yet want to play the role anyway.

Sponsored roles are for players who'd like to be nobles, templars, or family merchants.

I know this isn't necessarily true, though current definitions and differences between both are ambiguous, at best.

mansa, are we agreeing that there's a problem, but disagreeing over what the problem is?

I'm asking to clarify what you view the problem is.  You've done it.  Thanks!  

We've had the discussion as to the problems of karma and special apps over here:  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25956

Let's try and stick to actual roles, clans, and areas of the game, rather than guilds and classes for this discussion in this thread.  I think that will keep things on a steady beat.

[Forest Junkie]

That's just it - I don't think that clans, guilds, cities, or entire areas should be shut down.

I think that closing down special applications for the remainder of this mud's time is the answer to all of our problems, not limiting the amount of clans we can join.

[Gimfalisette]

Why are you people so opposed to that notion? Because you've already had your fill and know what it's like? Well there are some people who haven't and whether the mud is going down in 3 months or 4 it's still not much time left to try something you'll never have the opportunity to again.

I have never played a mindbender in this version of ARM, and I never will. But you know what? I'm pretty sure we'll have mindbenders in 2.ARM, so eventually I'll maybe get to play one.

Ditto on the elementalists...there WILL be magick in 2.ARM. Sure there will be some changes, but seriously...it's not like these roles are just going away. The "but I'll never get to play it!" rationale is really quite flimsy when it comes to magickers.

The only place where this rationale works is karma races that won't be around in 2.ARM. But come on, we all KNOW that it's not special apps for desert elves, half-giants, and muls that the imms are being flooded with.

[mansa]

The immortals have already limited the amount of clans you can join, and they will continue to do so, as they stop being interested in the old game, and work more on the new game.  That's what I think.

The Armageddon Staff have stopped the old game.  There is nothing new that will happen in your clans.  You cannot create a new clan of players to join.  You cannot create a gambling house in the 'rinth.  It's not going to happen.

The feeling that the world isn't alive and changeable really sucks.  It feels like I'm playing World of Warcraft, without the levels, graphics, and players.

You can't go out there and let House Borsail, or House Oash fall to the second tier of nobility.  You can't modify the game world to do what you want to do.  It's dead.  There's no saving it.

So, what do you do?  You create characters that will help destroy the world.  You create characters that can cause the most damage, because that's what the game is all about now - breaking the world.


[prediction]
The game's going to filter itself into two basic camps:  Fighters in Allanak and Fighters in Tuluk, and Desert Elf Magickers.

What's terrible is that Tuluk's going to have a fighting team of about 6 pcs, and Allanak will have about 40 pcs, just like the Copper Wars.  [/prediction]

[manonfire]

Crossposted from the Odd Urges thread, from April 11th.

Destroy Tuluk and consolidate the playerbase for the upcoming apocalypse.

I still completely support this idea.

[Gimfalisette]

mansa, first, I love you, and I've always enjoyed playing with you, and I love your dedication to the quality of this game.

Second, I think you're being really overly pessimistic and you're choosing to focus on the non-fun, broken parts of the game. Are there some non-fun, broken things? Sure there are, like anything in life. Does that mean the whole thing sucks and doesn't work and it's a failure? No, it doesn't.

I see a lot of potential for the players to still do things in this version of ARM, and have a lot of fun doing those things. Can we overthrow House Borsail? No, but...it's never really been all that realistic to overthrow Borsail, has it?

However, there are a LOT of other things players can do to keep the fun going. For example:

Create Scenes
When was the last time you publicly humiliated an elf? or a Bynner? or a [insert opposite city state here]-i? When was the last time your character got smashingly drunk and stood on a table, pulling their kilt over their head and singing at the top of their lungs? When was the last time you did anything to create a fun scene that would entertain and involve other characters? Try it. It's fun.

Do Stuff In Public
Have that private conversation at a table in the tavern, instead of at your apartment/barracks/estate. Use the tavern backroom for PG-13 nookie with your significant other. Cook at the tavern grill. Have a lesson with your underlings while standing in a public spot. Be part of the world being alive.

Throw RPTs
RPTs are so easy to do, really. Pick a time and a place and a reason to have one and then let people know about it on the in-game boards and the forums. You don't have to have a special reason to have an RPT, you just have to want to get people together for some fun. RPT ideas: Drinking competition, brawling, strip/exotic dance show, auction, bardic competition, hunting competition, joke/story time, gambling, card gaming, etc.

Special App a Mundane Character
Want to play something different, that's not yet another rogue magicker in the sands? (*snicker*) Maybe some people should special-app mundane characters with imm-enhanced skills! (Never know, it could work.) You've never played a 20-day warrior, you say? App for it!

Interact With Newbs
I'm still seeing a LOT of newbs coming through. Yay for newbs, we need them, let's keep them and addict them to Crackageddon! When I meet a newb, I always make a point to interact with them as extensively as possible, as ICly as possible...and yet as OOCly gently as possible. This means I'm probably ICly abusing them in some way, while trying to teach them about the gameworld and coded commands, while also leaving them alive and with all their coins in their pocket, while also telling them where to join the Byn.

Join a Clan
If your character is independent, maybe this bears re-thinking. Indies aren't generally at the heart of plots. And yes, playing indie means a lot more freedom, but it often means less contribution to the gameworld and other players, as well. Personally, I think it's worth dealing with clan restrictions in order to create more fun around me.

Meet Some New Characters
Has your character (general you, not just you mansa, but everyone) been around for a really long time and seen a lot of characters come and go, leaving you kind of jaded? Maybe you should make an OOC decision that your character needs a new friend or lover or business partner or enemy. And then go LOOK for that character, wherever you can. Travel the Known World to find this other character. You'll meet a lot of fresh faces, your search might not be successful, but the world will feel more alive while you're doing it.

Do Something Different
If you're (general you, not just you mansa, but everyone) not having fun in your role...sheesh, retire and do something else! A new role can put a lot of new, fresh energy into the gameworld. An old role can feel like you're stuck and things are dead. So shake it up and move on.

[X-D]

I'm not even going to reply to any posts on this thread. Except to state. If I had a dollar for every thread and post about dwindling playerbase, the need to consolidate etc, I'd be able to buy I nice shiny new motercycle.


Fact is, that over the years I, and I'm sure some others have noticed an ebb and flow of players.

sept-dec are normaly the peak numbers, with a dip at the end of dec, increases again for a while till about march, then a steady drop into and through the summer.

I've played for...what, nearly fifteen years now, and it has been the same, year in and year out.


Each year our averages have increased though, I can tell you that as well.

Me, this time of the year, I see 40-50 people on at peak, Shit, I'm amazed, it was not that long ago and this time of the year would have 16-30 at peak.

Last fall I was seeing into the 70s+ In 2003 at the same time it never broke 50 that I saw.

My answer is..calm down, have some tea and realize this is normal, numbers will start going up again in a couple months.

[Adhira]

Mansa wrote:

The immortals have already limited the amount of clans you can join, and they will continue to do so, as they stop being interested in the old game, and work more on the new game. That's what I think.

The Armageddon Staff have stopped the old game. There is nothing new that will happen in your clans. You cannot create a new clan of players to join. You cannot create a gambling house in the 'rinth. It's not going to happen.

I feel a need to respond to this. While you are entitled to your own opinions, stating them in a way that they appear as fact is just misleading others.

Clans have been closed. At this point in time there are NO PLANS to close others. It is a gross exaggeration to say that staff have stopped working on Armageddon as it exists now.

Staff are very active overseeing their clans, facilitating plots and doing the work that Arm 1 requires. While staff are also working on Arm 2 at the same time the nature of that work is such that different groups of staff have different inputs at variable times, there is no mass exodus of the workforce to the new version.

There is no reason that someone cannot create player formed clans in the exact same way they could a year ago.  I would be very sad if my clan members thought that there was nothing new that could be achieved, or would be happening for them. I've put a lot of time and thought into those clans, including facilitating ways for the players to be the drivers and implementors, as well as setting the paths for some interesting (hopefully) future developments.

For myself I average somewhere between 20 - 30 hours per week working on Arm version 1. Be that answering emails, reading boards, posting on the immortal board about current topics, overseeing plots or catching up with where my clans are.

Staff came on board to work on Armageddon 1. We have a passion for this game, we intend to carry over the flavour, passion and integrity of Arm 1 into the new version.

In the meantime, I have no intention of letting Armageddon 1 degenerate or languish through lack of staff attention. I signed on to help bring this world to life, and I intend to see it out with that same commitment and drive.

[Sanvean]

Adhira has put it eloquently and well.  Having just come from a week of disucssion that involved both versions of the game, I've got to agree that there is still a lot in slate for the world as you currently know it.

[Fathi]

Templars, nobles, merchants, etc. are special approval not special app

Honestly though the whole process, including the designated approver, are totally different from special apps.

For the sake of discussion, can you agree with this, Forest Junkie, Delirium, and Fathi?

Suppose I'm a bit late, but I do see a difference.

Mainly in that if 5 people with good account notes and good history all decided to app delves and they had good backgrounds and solid character concepts, I'd wager at least more than half of them would be approved.

Whereas if those same 5 people all decided they wanted to app House Kadius family members when there wasn't an ad for it, there's a good chance not even one would be approved.

The reason for this is that the staff more closely controls clan leadership roles than normal special apps, even though--like Junkie is arguing--a flood of isolated character types can have just as averse an effect as a flood of leadership characters with no peons.

[Vessol]

I agreed with everything Mansa said.

[X-D]

I personaly have found staff to be quite active in the current game. Normaly getting less then a 5 minute wait if I need help with something.

[Nameless Face]

I personaly have found staff to be quite active in the current game. Normaly getting less then a 5 minute wait if I need help with something.

I think that you and a few others might be unusually fortunate.  Perhaps you might have earned that level of attention, but many others might not experience that degree of participation from staff.

[jstorrie]

I don't think we're necessarily over-clanned. If it were my decision, I'd instead clamp down a little on karma/special roles. It seems like we're running a number of karma and special roles that could be easily supported by the 70+ peak before 2.Arm was announced, even though peak's drifted back down to 30-40.

Flushing more regular characters back into play revitalizes many of the real key Armageddon clans by giving them more folks to recruit as guards, spies, agents and thugs.

[Only He Stands There]

I think that you and a few others might be unusually fortunate.  Perhaps you might have earned that level of attention, but many others might not experience that degree of participation from staff.

I'm in the same boat with X-D. Everything seems to be handled pretty much as soon as it's brought up, or fifteen minutes later, or at the very latest, a couple days later (in the case of emails, requests, et cetera).

[Janna]

I think that you and a few others might be unusually fortunate.  Perhaps you might have earned that level of attention, but many others might not experience that degree of participation from staff.

I'm in the same boat with X-D. Everything seems to be handled pretty much as soon as it's brought up, or fifteen minutes later, or at the very latest, a couple days later (in the case of emails, requests, et cetera).

Same. I've never had an app go over even four hours in the past year. Any emails or requests, I'm basically on par with Only He Stands There.

If you think something deserves some attention IG or with your character, email the mud. Chances are one of the staffers will look at it as soon as they can and not kill you bringing it to your attention. They're nice like that.  :wink:

[ale six]

Wow wow wow... slow down, mansa.

The Armageddon Staff have stopped the old game.  There is nothing new that will happen in your clans.

This is just a laughable statement. I'm fairly sure that the imms staffing current clans will be making sure things happen.

You cannot create a new clan of players to join.  You cannot create a gambling house in the 'rinth.  It's not going to happen.

True, there may not be left for anything *new* on a large scale. No more Atriums will be popping up. That doesn't mean the game has ended. It doesn't mean no more new NPCs will be created, no more areas will be altered, no more world changes are possible.

The feeling that the world isn't alive and changeable really sucks.  It feels like I'm playing World of Warcraft, without the levels, graphics, and players.

Go look what happened to the old mul outpost and tell me the world isn't alive and changeable. That change happened after the announcement was made.

You can't go out there and let House Borsail, or House Oash fall to the second tier of nobility.

Sure you can. It's just as easy as it's ever been. In fact it may even be easier now that no PCs are around to defend those clans. Of course, it's always been pretty damn hard to do things like that, so don't get your hopes up any more than you would have before - but if destroying Borsail before the end is your goal, go for it anyway! If enough PCs move into the Allanaki political scene to make running a plot like that profitable in terms of time spent on it, we might see some very interesting intrigue between Tor/Fale, or between either of them and an NPC family.


I'm sad that some of the clans I've played in and loved are no longer around. I'm sad that there are less players now than there once were. I'm sad that I won't get a chance to play some of the roles I had hoped for, and that some of my favorite thematic areas of the game are gone. We've probably seen the last of pampered, pretentious, haughty-beyond-belief nobility of the Oash/Borsail style, both for Arm 1 and Arm 2. But there are still PLENTY of other areas in the game that ARE still around (and thriving!) and the only thing I have to be sad about there is that there's not enough time to dive into all of them.

The staff are still responsive, active, and working hard for us. I see no reason why we should just give up on them and on the game we've all played for so long.

[Medena]

Thanks ale six for your post with which I heartily agree.  I agree so much in fact that I hereby...

...accuse ale six of being a bender!

For she sucked all those thoughts right out of my mind ('cept she expressed in than a much better way than I would have).

[Bebop]

Ya' know, I know this isn't going to come as some big surprise if you've seen my other posts on the boards but I agree with mansa.

I'm just bewildered to see how in denial so many people are.  Numbers this low are normal!  Nothing about the game has changed!  Things are going to look up!  And then what?  Things will look up?  The game will go down.

And mansa was being truthful, clans have been closed.  Even Sanvean has said that there is a decent percentage of players that are now mindbenders and I personally have seen a jagged decrease of players in the cities after the announcement.  I just find it kind of funny that people keep insisting this isn't the case.  Maybe you just weren't on when there used to be *double* the players at peak times (or more!)

I didn't play for two months, I logged on for one hour, within that time my character was spam killed.  That has never happened to me in the two + years I've been here.  Then after that more bad experiences.  I definitely can see a decrease in the game, and I too have noticed errors gone unoticed in the game or belated resolutions to issues.  I currently don't have a character but I have all of these ideas for ones that will never be realized.

Part of the reason we have such good (usually non twinking) players is because people are able to make concepts and aspire to make them great, long lived etc.  And we were encouraged to do that, the game seemed limitless which is more than I can say for any other game.  But now all of these concepts I have will take a long time to accomplish and I don't want to start a character knowing I may never get there or get there just long enough to see the game end and have to kiss that character goodbye.  I play to aspire, it's fun it's a challenge and thats where the word play comes in - strategy.  When I know I'm just going to die or be stored anyway, it sucks alot of fun out of it and I think I might as well just wait for the new game where I can aspire again.

I want to remember Armageddon in a much better way.  And this prolonged death has already killed that for me.  My last memories of this game will be some IMM decided ending and a decreased playerbase with some bad experiences.  That's my experience may not be yours but I've heard from others that feel the same way so I just don't think its me.

[Delirium]

It is my opinion that people need to stop being pessimistic, loosen up a little, and have fun living out their character's stories. Every story in Armageddon comes to an end, and this will be no different, save for the fact that this ending may be of a more epic flavor.

In other words, quitcherbitchin' and just play the game already.

[Only He Stands There]

Amen. Agreed with Delirium.

[LauraMars]

Yeah you guys, it's not the end of the world, seriously.

[Folker]

I honestly dont understand the philosophy of unwilling to begin a character who will most definately die within this year. I mean, permanent death is one of the foundations of Armageddon. Not beginning a character out of fear that it might die sounds simply ludicrious to me.

There are newbies out there who place posts in GDB, stating their character got insta killed or mugged, or robbed. And while that's unfair and saddening, they are told to steel themselves, try again. Sometimes, when the newbie death was actually rped out, they give them the "if you think someone was mean to you, they probably were." line. If they were just insta killed, well just adviced to try again. But if this happens to an old character who was lucky enough to avoid such events for awhile, why then it's a sign of a declining quality of the game, nothing less.

I remember reading near similar words somewhere around last december, or january. Where someone was unwilling to play a character who would only live half a year. Alright, so some began their characters then, and whoever wrote those words didnt. Now those who began their characters that day, have six months old characters who are in progress of achieving their aspirations, and 'still' have atleast 3 months lifetime ahead of them. And that's 'atleast', because who knows how often 2.Arm will be delayed again. Ofcourse, those peopel who did 'not' begin or stick to the character that december/january, still dont have a character ...

People say that the playerbase fell, and that mat be true. But in my opinion, atleast 'one' portion of the problem are the people who ... have plenty of ideas for new characters, they're just ... not playing them. Kind of ending up robbing themselves, and others obviously, of a nice armageddon experience.

[slipshod]

People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history.

-Dan Quayle

[flurry]

I have to agree that the pessimism seems a little exaggerated at this point.  As others have pointed out, we've always had dips in numbers (especially this time of year) and trendy upticks in one thing or another.  Right now maybe it's magickers, but you can go back as far as you want in the GDB archives and find threads about too many magickers.

It's worth noting that, although we may have had recent peaks around 40, but we're still getting a couple hundred unique people playing every week.

One other point: it seems like special aps have become the bogeyman of the moment, in that people want to pin any perceived problems on too many special aps.  Yeah, surely some of the karma characters around are special aps, but I'm sure a lot of them aren't.  If a lack of mundane characters is a really problem, then that's something we can all work on fixing.  Be the change.

[Riev]

I -am- the change, simply because I'm new, and I can't imagine playing a magicker or a special app unless absolutely necessary.  My original complaints were just that no matter where I went outside city walls, I'd see people surrounded in fire shields, flying on wind, and stomping quakes. It was a bit ridiculous. However, there ARE other people that play mundanes, just need to find when they play

[Twilight]

I find this whole idea of low player numbers rather strange.  My frame of reference for player numbers has been, for a long time, around 97-98 or so.  Which, for those of you who weren't around or were too stoned to notice, 2-5 during the day and 10 to possibly 15 at peak.

So I have a hard time empathizing when we get SO MANY FREAKING PLAYERS all the time.  Sure, if you look at only the ASTONISHING recent history of 2-3 years, it might be depressing, I suppose.  But honestly, I couldn't see a long time player here quitting for lack of numbers or interaction.  Historically we are still doing very well.  Nevermind that we are one of the most populated free DIKU-based muds out there at this point (I don't count LP and all those non-hard coded kinds because I detest them).

[Marauder Moe]

There were 60 people online tonight, a Monday, not attached to any (American) holidays.

[Malken]

HRPT in progress.

[flurry]

It's been nice to see the numbers in the sixties again.  I think the lesson is not to get too panicky about dips in the numbers, especially this time of year.

[Delirium]

It's been nice to see the numbers in the sixties again.  I think the lesson is not to get too panicky about dips in the numbers, especially this time of year.

What she said.

[Coat of Arms]

There are good days, and there are slow days (this being one of them, at least in Allanak... sheesh). Sometimes all of your PC's friends log on when you do and stuff happens. Sometimes you spend 5 hours frantically searching for and failing to find anyone that your character can have meaningful interaction with. While I don't get to play peak hours often enough to comment on the population, I find that off-peak numbers have actually been pretty good lately. I was stunned to see 37 online one day when I logged on from work at 11am GMT+1, although it's normally closer to 15-25ish at that point. I haven't seen the dreaded 0-5 in months which is what we used to get all the time at off-peak hours. It's really depressing to be the only player online on a mud that supposedly has several hundreds of active or semi-active players.

[Belenos]

HRPT in progress.

Just to clarify officially, there was no HRPT (Highly recommended playing time) in progress at that time.  An HPRT is a -very- significant event, and would have been announced by the staff well in advance.

As an aside, we did have 3 separate RPT's (Recommended playing time) the day before on Sunday the 3rd.  Our peak at that time was 68 players.

[Malken]

HRPT in progress.

Just to clarify officially, there was no HRPT (Highly recommended playing time) in progress at that time.  An HPRT is a -very- significant event, and would have been announced by the staff well in advance.

As an aside, we did have 3 separate RPT's (Recommended playing time) the day before on Sunday the 3rd.  Our peak at that time was 68 players.

Heh, I know, sorry, was just trying to see if we could up it to 70+ players  :oops:

[Aruven]

[/quote] eq. All Borsails are wiped out by "I hate borsail" Whiran sikrit clan. =).[/quote]

I hated seeing borsail close, but it simply won't function without naiona. Nobody likes seeing parts of the game close, but Allanak's foremost house?

Anyway, I'd close things in the cities last if more must close down before the game ends, and get rid of virtually non-existent clans like the silt-winds.

But there's a lot of elf players, so I won't touch on that

[BuNutzCola]

Anyway, I'd close things in the cities last if more must close down before the game ends, and get rid of virtually non-existent clans like the silt-winds

Dun dun dun.......

[psionic fungus]

I don't know what is going on in this thread, so I'm just replying to the topic... If I were evil overlord, I would close down damn near everything.

Red Storm and Red Storm East are now silt piles.  Allanak is a magick-drenched ruin inhabited by elementals, demons, and undead.  Luir's is destroyed and/or over-run.  The Desert Elves and Gith are wiped out.  Mantis clutches roam much of the wastes, making the tablelands and southern deserts uninhabitable.

All players will be forced to either play tribal humans united within Tyn Dashra, Halflings in the Grey Forest, Tulukis, or refugees.

Thank you.

[Jherlen]

... I'm glad you're not running things.

[Catatonic77]

Everyone gets access to all their old characters, on the condition that their current active character dies first.  So, essentially, it will be a vengeance fest, where you go down the list of all your past characters as they get killed off during this final week...  A biblical event in which the dead are suddenly back among us!  :twisted:  Or perhaps you get to chose to bring back only one character for the week...

All those characters... legendary rivalries... friends... enemies...
What a mess that would be... a beautiful, ridicolous mess  

Optional:  Coding footwear as a bludgeoning weapon that can be wielded.

[Kankman]

Mansa got his wish. They closed the game.



















THANKS A LOT MANSA. jerk.

[mansa]

Hey Kankman,

Still around?

[Kankman]

Kinda.

[Aquarian]

I've only been playing about a year and a half, a year of that as a severe addict. I've played only two characters in that whole time, (and thats not counting my very first character that died after 8 hours play time) Anyway, think how many people in my case aren't going to get to try all that is in Armageddon. Sure, I want to play a bender. The very idea of what they can do makes me all hot and bothered. Sorc's, elementalists, rinthi fuck.. I've hardly played ANYTHING. But I'm not giving up on arm because I have 'no time left' I'm also not going to special app anything. I thought seriously about a whiran when my current character dies, but I realized just how much is going on for mundanes/non karma roles. I've ALSO found a ton of Imm interaction in the world since the announcements of arm 2. More than I even saw before that.. Such as animated NPCs etc..

I'll be playing till the end with as much excitement if not more. I'm making my characters count up until the end.

We are all responsible for our own experience. Take responsiblity for your own.