Size and Bash

[LauraMars]

At Morgenes' request, let's start discussing in -this- thread how size factors into bash and what is/is not realistic about it.

If I were given a choice for a quick fix, I'd prefer that weight be more of a  deciding factor in the bash skill, not size as it seems to be currently.  This seems an easy band-aid on the problem, but if someone has something more elegant, propose.

I think an elf being wonderful at bashing (and they are) is unrealistic - they may be the largest coded pcs besides half-giants, but they are light like birds are light.  An elf bashing a dwarf should be like a reed trying to knock over a stump.

(Check out the page of this thread for previous thoughts on the topic: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22944&start=30)

[jhunter]

Weight and strength should be the primary factors besides skill. Height shouldn't really factor into it.

[Morgenes]

Think carefully on this.  There needs to be some kind of ratio that benefits heavier weight and shorter height.  Unfortunately weight in the game is measured in ten stone, which doesn't give us a lot of variation.  A elf can be between 7-9 ten-stone and a dwarf can be between 8-10.

Height is a much bigger range, elves being 74-90 inches and dwarves going from 50-58.

My intial thought would be to do a weight to height ratio, which would enforce a benefit to being heavier and shorter.  Either way, weight needs to be brought to stones instead of ten-stone, so we must multiply it by 10.  Something along the lines of:

Code Select Expand

ratio = ((weight * 10)/ height) * 10

This ratio could be computed for each side in a contest, and the difference between the two could be applied as a modifier to the skill contest.

So let's take a thin, tall dwarf and compare it against a thick, short elf:

Code Select Expand

dwarf ratio = ((8 * 10)/58) * 10 = 13
elf ratio = ((9 * 10)/74) * 10 = 12


This would only imply a 1 difference between the two.  

Now let's take a thick short dwarf compared to a tall, thin elf:

Code Select Expand

dwarf ratio = ((10 * 10)/50) * 10 = 20
elf ratio = ((6 * 10)/90) * 10 = 6


Here the ratio gives a 14 difference between the two, a signifcant advantage based purely on size alone.  But still, compared to skills, this likely won't amount to much.

For the record, half-giants are 75-90 stone and 125-155 inches.

An obscene half-giant's ratio's would be in the 72 range (((90 * 10)/125) * 10), putting them well beyond the chance of just about anything smaller than them.  I like these values for this result.

Maybe just adding in strength (as jhunter suggests) or a contest between the two would be enough to help.

[Nao]

The thing is, that elves are still heavier than humans.

[Marauder Moe]

The problem with weight (and height), though, is that you can freely choose it during character creation.  If it was known that it affects some combat skills (I don't know if it did, or it does now, or what), the powergaming-inclined might be tempted to always make max-weight warrior characters.  I think have it based on race makes more sense, as races each come with drawbacks anyway.

Now... if weight had a penalty associated with it as well as a boon to combat, things might work better for balance.

[Hymwen]

the powergaming-inclined might be tempted to always make max-weight warrior characters

This is already the case, although not universally. There are certain benefits to max height and weight which makes a lot of stat-focused players go that way.

As for how to balance bash, how about simply making your race matter and then have size/weight mean a lot less, before factoring in strength and skill? Pulling numbers out of my rear end here:

Code Select Expand

Race   -    Bash Bonus
Dwarf         10
Human         5
Half-elf      4
Desert Elf    4
City Elf      2
Halfling     -5
Mul           20
Half-giant    35
(the reason d-elves are slightly better than city elves is that they are generally more muscular, or so says 'help elf')

Then have stats and skill factor in, as well as weight but not to such an extent that it will make people choose their character's appearance based on how good they want to be at bash.

Edit: okay, my numbers weren't too thought-through, but the main idea is to have your race be the deciding factor moreso than coded weight.

[Dalmeth]

Well, I think height and weight shouldn't be calculated at all in regard to the bash equation.  The thing is, many of the ideas of why height and weight make a difference is based on certain physical characteristics that are associated with them.  A short, fat man is not going to be as nearly as good as bashing as a fit dwarf.

I think success in bashing should be based primarily on strength, and that's all.  It's just one of the problems with our current, semi-random stat allocation : size and weight don't always corespond with a character's strength.

[Pale Horse]

Too me, I've always thought of bash as any sort of technique or skill that alowes my character to knock the other off his feet.  This ranges from the coded "bashing body into other to knock it down", to sticking my foot out and tripping my opponent, using a weapon to knock his sweep his feet out from beneath, to any other varriety of moves.  As such, I'm not really moved for a change in the bashing skill.

But to get into this discussion, I would agree with anyone who advocates a mixture of height and weight and strength remedy, but not forgeting skill, of course.  Having the vast knowledge of wrestling and brawling that I do (essentially zip), I can easily see where superior skill has won out almost every time versus an opponent of a roughly similar weight and height.  It's only when you get into the extream differences do you begin to find that even for all your skill, you can't really get an opponent nearly twice your height and weight to loose his balance or become subdued.

[Clearsighted]

Maybe just adding in strength (as jhunter suggests) or a contest between the two would be enough to help.

That may be the best solution.

[X-D]

I like keeping it simple and am in favor of adding strength....and looking over Morgenes post, if that could be done it seems quite realistic.

[jmordetsky]

I like Morg's post. I think the race mod idea Hymwen posted is a good idea as well, *but* it would really be covered by by a strength mod (suggested by XD) giving giant, dwarves and muls a much deserved boost. I like the strength mod because it would give (hopefully) a dwarf with similar proportions to a short stocky human an advantage.

I have no ideas of my own.

[spawnloser]

I like the height/weight ratio factoring in, as well as strength.

And for those that keep mentioning skill, skill will ALWAYS factor in, as it is a skill.

I don't like race being a factor, because all that would accomplish is to give a broad bonus/penalty to everyone based on size...without actually calculating the size.

To address particular examples:
Desert elves are stronger than city elves?  Having strength factor in will account for this.

Dwarves are stocky?  Height/weight ratio will factor this in.

Fat people in general?  Height/weight ratio again.

Half-giants are twice as tall as humans but roughly ten times as heavy, not to mention ridiculously strong?  Yeah, height/weight ratio and strength being factored in will take care of this.

Halflings?  Same as above...height/weight and strength both again.

[Kelamson]

I don't like the idea of racial mods. They mean that all mobs need to have a mod assigned (or at least to their race). Way too much work I would think.

Just using strength is OK, but it would be nice to factor in some other things. For example a four (or more) legged creature would be harder to bash than a two-legged creature because it has a lower center of gravity. Also if two creatures have the same strength and one has considerably more mass (momentum) then it should have an advantage.

I like Morgenes' formula, because it factors this in. A creature with four or more legs will be more long than high, so it works. Adding in strength (or some bonus from strength) would finish it off.

I'll assume that charge will work the same way. :twisted:

[Tuannon]

I think it should be based on the amount of force one can apply toward the target's centre of gravity, it is nothing or very little to do with strength or weight.

An elf would be next to useless at bashing, because his or her centre of gravity is a good foot or more above that of a human, and way above that of a dwarf. However, it should be quite difficult to actually bash an elf because they are so nimble and tend to step away or roll with the majority of the impact.

Long story short, perhaps a base number based on race and build that is modified by skill and perhaps class for the basher opposed by a racial base number modified by dexterity and class for the bashee.

[X-D]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

[spawnloser]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Not when trying to kill in a head-on attack...from the side?  Yeah, four-legged critters tip easier than most would think.

[Cyrian20]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Not when trying to kill in a head-on attack...from the side?  Yeah, four-legged critters tip easier than most would think.

No -anything- tips easily from the side, tip a two legged creature and a four legged creature and the two legged will fall easier. So yes four fall easy but still harder then two.

[Zalanthan]

First off, it sounds like we need to clarify what exactly "bash"ing is in Armageddon.  I do not think Pale Horse's broad interpretation is incorrect with the current code, but I think it is important to remind ourselves that just because the end result of a successful bash is your opponent ending up on his arse, I don't think this should be viewed as an opportunity to role-play a cunning trip or a wrestling take-down.  After all, the limit of our characters' in-combat actions is disarm, kick, and bash, which I believe should all be vastly different.  So even though I want to argue that your foe's agility should be the dominantly governing stat*, I believe it factors largely in the other two skills so we should try to strive for balance here.  It is likely the end result will be some composite of these ideas, but I am another supporter of keeping it simple - even if that means:

Disarm = Agility (subtle hand/blade movements)
Kick = Strength (BREAK those shins!)
Bash = Endurance (standing ground rather than avoiding foe's rush)

Finally, let me say I am glad someone intoduced center of gravity into the discussion, as that factors enormously into this type of situation.  And, unless it complicates things, please consider the idea of using a shield as a bonus to a bash attempt (shove 'em down and skewer their belly).

Z


* Anyone detecting a larger foe rushing towards them to knock them down (highly likely in 1v1 combay) is going to rely on their agility to move out of the way at the last moment, ideally giving the foe a nasty riposte as well.

[rgbrook]

I greatly dislike the idea of racial modifiers to any skill unless they originate from some major racial affinity or common experience, and I feel that any racial modifiers should affect the starting levels of skills rather than modifying the skill caps in any way.  This is especially true of physical skills.  The ultimate limit of achievement in any physical skill should be governed strictly by physical characteristics (i.e. strength, endurance, agility, size, shape, mass, etc...) and the ability of the character to use such characteristics appropriately (i.e. skill level) since physical activities are almost exclusively governed by classical mechanics (including biomechanics).  Further, excepting serious mismatches in physical characteristics (i.e. halflings, half-giants, etc...), the skill level should have the greatest affect on the outcome by a signficant margin.  

I base this position on both theory and practical experience/observation.  Skill level shows up in relevant equations through better use of relative positions, momentums, and angles to maximize the effect of a technique/exchange.  Relative angles, in particular, can be very important in obtaining a positive outcome from even the most extreme of circumstances since they typically show up in trigonometric coefficients that are multiplied across many terms of relevant mechanical equations.  Typically, relative momentums and forces (i.e. strength) tend to establish the amplitude of the trigonometric curves corresponding to the possible values for individual terms in the governing equations, but relative angles determine which point on the trigonmetric curve corresponds to the solutions for the respective terms in the equation.  This is largely the reason that a properly trained 60-year-old woman weighing about 90 pounds and standing just under 5 feet tall can throw a 350-pound man standing over 7 feet tall -- a feat that I have personally witnessed.  

Before formulating a bash modifier that takes into account the physical aspects of both the attacker and defender, I think it is important to define a "bash".  Does it strictly include slamming into the target?  Does it include any attempt to throw the target off-balance?  I personally think that bash should include everything from slamming into a target to foot sweeps to hip throws to garumas and more.  Basically, I think that bash should include any grappling action (including a collision) that is intended to throw/lead the opponent to the ground in some manner.  If this definition is adopted, then there is sufficient latitude in the actual choice of technique to accomodate the use of any or all of the physical characteristics mentioned above on the part of both the attacker and the defender.  This definition would also mean that skill (as represented by the proper choice and application of an appropriate technique/counter-technique) would play the dominant role in the exchange.

If any immortals are interested, I would be happy to formulate several possible model equation, but it would be much simpler to do so and much more directly applicable if some general idea of the characteristics for PCs and mobs that are available in the code for use in the model could be identified.  

Regarding Morganes' ratio of mass to height, I am a little concerned that the overall effect might be a simple shift in advantage from tall, massive characters to short, massive characters unless appropriate advantages and disadvantages for both height and weight exist throughout the game.  To the best of my current knowledge, height and weight are only taken into account in a few bits of code rather than uniformly wherever they might be appropriate.  If the ratio is simply employed as a small portion of the result (say 20%) then it might not be a big enough deal to result in a bunch of short, massive human warriors.  Regardless, the ratio is certainly a better idea than simply using the size of a character/mob, unless the idea of size is rescaled appropriately.  The current size chart seems to be more heavily biased in terms of height than mass.  Perhaps a few adjustments to the size scale combined with a rebalancing of the effect of size on bash might be sufficient to address the issue at hand.

[X-D]

I do think shields should come into play on the skill as well both for using and defending against.

My PC's almost never even try to bash if using two weapons and no shield or a two-handed weapon.

I also emote the push and trip, shield sweep and more so only about 20% of my PC's bashes are direct frontal.

Bash has always been one of the skills that I've always found mildly annoying. specialy when you take strength, center of gravity and weight to factor.

Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

[Sokotra]

I
Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

Heh, I'll have to add this to my gripes about dwarves.   Not that I don't think they are good as they are, but (without knowing exactly how the code works) I just don't think they are working quite the way they should be working as far as this goes as well as their strength and poison resistance.

[Clearsighted]

Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

I would like to see weight have a greater impact on one's size. Being 10 stones as opposed to 9 stones is a much greater difference than being 65 inches tall as opposed to 60. Yet I think now, it is factored in something like 61 to 60 inches would be. Frankly, I'd like to see weight given much more range, instead of the fairly narrow band it is in right now.

[Pantoufle]

Just to throw a wrench in the whole argument here, in judo one is taught that a slight woman can topple a huge man many times her size and seemingly throw the person across the room by using the larger person's weight.  It typically doesn't work quite like that but the idea here is that smaller and lighter is taught to throw larger and heavier onto the ground (i.e., they are no longer standing -- which happens to be the result of a successful bash).

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

[Clearsighted]

Just to throw a wrench in the whole argument here, in judo one is taught that a slight woman can topple a huge man many times her size and seemingly throw the person across the room by using the larger person's weight.  It typically doesn't work quite like that but the idea here is that smaller and lighter is taught to throw larger and heavier onto the ground (i.e., they are no longer standing -- which happens to be the result of a successful bash).

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

The stronger and heavier person still has the advantage. It is just a case of 'skill' here.

(And I think given the brutal nature of Zalanthas, it is safe to assume that a bash is more akin to trying to knock someone down with brute force or with a shield, not as a more elegant martial arts throwing maneuver).

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Just out of curiosity, how does one get real life experience knocking a few animals with four legs off their balance?

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

I think in the case of bash, it is a brute force attack rather than a throw. I believe the reversal of kicks (as they are coded now) is more akin to a judo or aikido redirection of force, where coded size is not so important when a smaller PC catches the kick of a bigger PC and pushes them to the floor with their momentum.

[FightClub]

I believe this is a case of how you use your weight, not how much you have.  Sure weight should have some influence in it, but it's not substitution for skill.

[Quirk]

While I think strength and weight should definitely factor into bash, I think that reversing a bash could quite legitimately consider agility. If bash is a brute force attack, it should be terribly vulnerable to the redirections of that force. It doesn't require any real strength to step aside and trip your charging opponent.

If bash is just a brute force attack, though, the impact skill has on the outcome should be pretty limited. If it's not, strength and agility and weight all have a huge impact, and having a lack in any of these will hurt your effectiveness.

[Clearsighted]

While I think strength and weight should definitely factor into bash, I think that reversing a bash could quite legitimately consider agility. If bash is a brute force attack, it should be terribly vulnerable to the redirections of that force. It doesn't require any real strength to step aside and trip your charging opponent.

If bash is just a brute force attack, though, the impact skill has on the outcome should be pretty limited. If it's not, strength and agility and weight all have a huge impact, and having a lack in any of these will hurt your effectiveness.

Well...

The failure of a bash is your opponent nimbly darting out of a way, whereupon you fall down. That could be agility.

The reverse of the bash is them *meeting* your charge and knocking you down, which shows an exertion of greater strength and weight.

I can see an elf nimbly darting out of the way and letting the dwarf fall down. But there is something sick about a tall, spindly elf meeting a dwarf with brute strength/size and knocking them down in an reverse-bash.

[Tuannon]

Just out of curiosity, how does one get real life experience knocking a few animals with four legs off their balance?

Cow Tipping.

To use the judo example given, we should amend the small woman throwing someone who is apparently a lot larger to:

Small person with good control of their centre of gravity throws unskilled taller, larger person under favourable circumstances.

In essence the skill thing comes back into the equation, as does the element of randomness.

On the subject of multiple legs, a passive four legged animal is one thing a hostile one is another. And then in a Zalanthan example you have scrabs which are quick, fairly large (man size but not as heavy), low to the ground and have six legs.

It should be very difficult to bash a scrab for a man, near impossible for a half giant.

[Sephiroto]

Regarding the height-weight ratio:  I was thinking some kind of Pythagorean Theorem concept where height and weight are A and B, and the modifier is C then couple that with your strength and possibly offense/defense to get your roll.

How heavily height versus weight is . . . weighed in these calculations would be subjectively based on a lot of things, but I think this formula might help get a large field of roll values when using height and weight.

Hopefully you can make sense of my cluttered thoughts.

[Tuannon]

Some sort of algebraic expression for the force applied at the height it is applied?

[Fnord]

1) Weight should figure into bashing at least twice more than height.

2) A shield should add a bash bonus, if it does not already.

That being said, height/weight figuring into bash has always annoyed me, because it means certain character builds are "better" than others. The short, light warrior would be at a disadvantage to the big, heavy one. While that's realistic (skill being equal, a larger creature will usually win contests of force), it's unfortunate because people will favor that body type for the advantage.

3) The solution here might be to remove size/weight based bash bonuses, and just give half-giants (and larger creatures) a large bash bonus behind the scenes.

[X-D]

Hey, Somebody answered for me.
Cow Tipping.

Also works on a few others, but cows are the funniest.

Also Large dogs and play, very easy to bowl over from the side or any reasonable side angle.

[Clearsighted]

I really hope this gets seen to sometime soon to put more emphasis on weight, skill and strength, rather than height. Because right now, a newish elf warrior with max height can bash far more effectively and easily knock down those who try in the exact same manner that a HG does. And I just don't see that as coherent with the lanky, weak but fast nature of their face. At the moment, it seems more than 50% of what decides a bash is relative height.

[Forty Winks]

That being said, height/weight figuring into bash has always annoyed me, because it means certain character builds are "better" than others. The short, light warrior would be at a disadvantage to the big, heavy one. While that's realistic (skill being equal, a larger creature will usually win contests of force), it's unfortunate because people will favor that body type for the advantage.

Throwing my two sids in, I don't see anything wrong with people choosing a bulkier body for warriors, considering warriors who are slender and tall may not be as successful when compared with the bulkier, perhaps more muscular warriors in a "strong live, weak die" society. If a character is tall and light-weight, he likely wouldn't focus upon a style that relies upon bash anyway, and those who are built for a bashing style will use that more often. Like you said, Fnord, its realistic, but not unfortunate, IMO.

Personally, I really find tall, slender warriors difficult to imagine in a rugged, gritty atmosphere. When you think of a mercenary, or a soldier, do you picture an elf-like human leading units and armies? Almost all the time those who are successful as a warrior will be of the heavily built, muscular type. The only light-weight warriors I could imagine are those in Tuluk, who don't focus upon strength and straight-forward attacking, but with style and smooth motions.

[Forty Winks]

Perhaps as a counter to those warriors who are short and bulky, those with a lighter frame get a better bonus to evading bashes? I find that that would set a good balance between the two body types.

For an inexperienced half-giant to be able to successfully bash a fairly experienced human, for example, should be difficult due to the amount of mass required for the half-giant to move in comparison to the amount the human can move, though the gurth of the half-giant could very well make up the difference, if he was skilled enough at bashing. The same reasoning could apply to an inexperienced dwarven warrior vs. an inexperienced human, who though shorter and heavier, may not have the knowledge to successful bash the human due to his body-mass, and the human who doesn't have the leverage and weight to barrel over the dwarf.

Also, something that I'd like to see are more are of the critical failure bash attempts when done with a tall, lighter person against a short, stockier one, considering the stockier one is more experienced. I think if weight vs height issue was adjusted, this would occur more realistically.

The only times I've ever witnessed a critical failure was when done against a sparring dummy...  :lol:

[Forty Winks]

Hehe, another thing that came to mind, though perhaps a different topic, would be allowing those who are taller to have a bonus on those who are shorter when kicking them. For some reason I find it hilarious to picture a half-giant trying to kick a dwarf. It would be the new game of soccer in Zalanthas!  :lol:

With all these adjustments made, (with a few tweaks where needed, of course) I'd find combat to truly be more of a strategic battle when coupled between two (master) warriors of equal experience.

A human warrior who is up against a dwarven warrior, for example, would have to consider using bash at a disadvantage to try and prevent the opponent from bashing -him-, or to continue with his more effective kicks and see if he can evade the dwarf's bashes.

[Clearsighted]

Right now it is fairly easy for an inexperienced elf or half giant to bash a human-sized or lower character.  Not just bash, but actually have the basher /bounce/ off them and take damage.

I don't have a problem with this for giants...They are incredibly strong and enormously heavy.

It is just sad that I know its their /height/ the code is factoring into account, and very little of the weight.

(I.E, the way it's been explained in the past is that being 68 inches to 66 inches is as much a size difference as being 9 ten-stone to 8 ten-stone which just aint right...)

Frankly, I think Dwarves, Humans and Elves should all have roughly equitable sizes. Dwarves are short but broad and heavy, elves are tall but slim, and humans are a mix. A max weight-height specimen of each should probably be about the same. (Yes, 20-40 added more pounds of muscle should more than make up for a foot or two of height)

[Forty Winks]

A max weight-height specimen of each should probably be about the same.

That I highly doubt and disagree with. A dwarf would be knee-height on a max height elf, and considering that the weight is about equal, it would be like trying to bash a solid chunk of metal that comes to the knee in RL.

[UnderSeven]

I'm not entirely in agreement with either.  The dwarf will have a lower center of gravity and mass focused in a smaller space.  In that sense I agree entirly with FW.  However, it isn't like the elf has to charge the dwarf at full height.  You can assume the elf will approach the dwarf in such a way to best use their own size and mass, ducking down and pushing forward on the dwarf's level.  While I don't feel that should even out the difference, I think the difference shouldn't be huge, at least not nearly as big as current bash is with racial differences seeming to make a bigger difference in some cases then skill level.  Though this is all assuming the elf and dwarf have the same total mass.

[Clearsighted]

A dwarf would be knee-height on a max height elf

Knee-high? A Dwarf's max height is 58 inches, and their max weight is 10 ten stone.

I'm not entirely in agreement with either.  The dwarf will have a lower center of gravity and mass focused in a smaller space.  In that sense I agree entirly with FW.  However, it isn't like the elf has to charge the dwarf at full height.  You can assume the elf will approach the dwarf in such a way to best use their own size and mass, ducking down and pushing forward on the dwarf's level.  While I don't feel that should even out the difference, I think the difference shouldn't be huge, at least not nearly as big as current bash is with racial differences seeming to make a bigger difference in some cases then skill level.  Though this is all assuming the elf and dwarf have the same total mass.

And if you're assuming that elf and dwarf have the same total mass, you're assuming wrong. Dwarves have a much higher total mass. Currently, the difference in dwarf and elf height makes it possible for even a newbish elf warrior to have his way bashing-wise with a dwarven warrior.

Which is why roughly, at the end of the day, when size and height are taken into account, I do not see the maximum specimen of either non-karma race having a significant coded advantage.

The vast majority of it however should depend on strength and skill. Which it does not right now.

[UnderSeven]

Ugh, Okay, I didn't explain myself well.  I'm not saying a dwarf and elf have the same total mass. I am saying IF you had a situation like that for the sake of experiment or arguement.  

I realize they don't have the same total mass, that's why they're called different races.

Basically my point was supposed to be the last line of your post.

[Clearsighted]

I see now.

[Forty Winks]

Heh, I guess a 58 inch dwarf compared to a 96 inch elf wouldn't come to the knee, but it's a 2:1 ratio in height. Though I don't know the exact range of weight between the two races, they should be near the same range, meaning the dwarf will have a larger density.

The dwarf will have a lower center of gravity and mass focused in a smaller space. In that sense I agree entirly with FW. However, it isn't like the elf has to charge the dwarf at full height. You can assume the elf will approach the dwarf in such a way to best use their own size and mass, ducking down and pushing forward on the dwarf's level.

You forget to take into consideration the dwarf stooping down to take the elf's bash as well. The elf will need to get down to about the height of his knee to get any leverage on the dwarf, while the dwarf is already at an advantage in terms of leverage, and gets further benefits by tucking himself in to take the bash. And if they're both standing upright, the dwarf still has the advantage with a higher density -and- leverage than the elf.

:lol:  In the end though, we're still all agreeing that the current code needs change to take into account weight over height.

[Forty Winks]

Which is why roughly, at the end of the day, when size and height are taken into account, I do not see the maximum specimen of either non-karma race having a significant coded advantage.

The vast majority of it however should depend on strength and skill. Which it does not right now.

From reasons stated earlier, I think there should be a -noticeable- coded advantage, just not significant as you say. Also, I think the density of a humanoid should be taken into higher consideration than strength, seeing how strength still needs to overcome the body's center of gravity which has alot to do with weight to push someone over. Though strength and skill should come in as close second and thirds to the factors determining bash. If the code could figure in density of a character, then it would fix the height/weight issue.

To balance this, I'll mention this again. The lighter a character is, the larger the chance to evade from a heavier character it should be, though perhaps not as significant a factor. Also, the taller someone is, the easier it should be to kick a shorter person.

-FW, who had way too much time on his hand today.

[Vesperas]

Okey, dokey, my turn!  


I agree that racial mods should -not- be used: the reason being is that a height/weight ratio should work realistically well without any baggage from your race selection.  If you are a half-giant, you'll never be as light as a human, and if you are a human, you'll never be as heavy as a dwarf.  The height/weight stats takes care of the racial bonuses all by itself.

The PROBLEM that I forsee with using height and weight is that it would really encourage players who figure it out to always pick the most optimal range -- guessing by the way this discussion is going, that would smallest height and greatest weight.

This could probably be balanced by adding disadvantages throughout the ranges (perhaps determined by racial max/mins) that may balance out the annoyance-factor and the oh-so-kewl-leet-ability-bonuses.

An example of such a 'disadvantage' would perhaps be the hunger counter:  a human that is much larger than other humans (max height/max weight) may find that their hunger/thirst counter will change more quickly than smaller humans, and be more difficult to satisfy.

Someone who is much shorter than everyone else may also find that its a tiny bit more difficult to wilderness-travel or run -- they have a much shorter stride and require more endurance to achieve the same lengths as someone who is tall.


I also think that STRENGTH needs to be a big factor.

For example, I am a fairly large person in real life -- I certainly weigh a lot more than the 'heavy' humans of Zalanthas.  I can do a lot of serious damage if I wanted to, but I have had smaller, shorter people shove me across a room easily in a test of strength.  

Oh, and skill, of course.

So:
- skill level comparison
- weight/height ratio vs. weight/height ration
- strength

Those are my suggestions.

EDITED:  To add, that the above list is given in the order of priority.

[UnderSeven]

Personally I think skill needs to be the big factor.

When you get down to it, bash is to a lesser extent a wrestling move like a subdue or a trip of some kind.  You're knocking your opponent over but it isn't just two brutes bumping heads.  Someone with a lot of strength can have that strength used against them, say they see a person coming to bash them and they figure, okay, I'm a wall of muscle, I'll just give appropriate force back at them and knock them over instead.  EXCEPT the person bashing them being the more skilled basher goes, okay, well that person figures I'm so small he'll just knock me over, I'm going to shift my weight at the last moment and I'm going to throw him on his ass.  In other words, size could be used against someone by a skilled enough person.

Basically the way I view bash at least is to a lesser extent like a martial arts throw, and really strength should be a big factor, but skill needs to be the biggest.  With the possible exception of extreme size differences, when considering halflings and half giants.

[Clearsighted]

Well...

The optimal range is a half giant's weight and height.

Among dwarves, half-elves, elves and humans, strength and skill should be 90% of the equation.

[Forty Winks]

As skill should be a higher priority than weight, I would think weight would be a higher priority over strength.

An obese human, for example, though not having much muscle density, could still fairly easily resist a bash from an average human who's muscular, when skills are the same. The muscular human would need to overcome both the inherit strength of the obese person, but also more so the center of gravity of this large man.

BUT, this is considering the success of a bash. The amount of damage done by a bash should be affected much more so by strength, as it currently is IG I believe.

[Clearsighted]

At the moment, it would take a special app to play an obese human. (Or really, an obese member of any race). All their weight ranges are pretty narrow.

[Clearsighted]

Hrm. After about three weeks of further 'observation', this is definitely something I hope gets fixed soon.

It is really sad when someone's arbitrarily chosen height, not only counts for MUCH more than weight, but that it is vastly much more important than skill or strength.

No need to rehash the reasons listed in this thread, I just felt that after three weeks of paying close attention to this, I really can't wait for the formula to take strength and skill into greater account over arbitrary size. Currently, an averagish strength, yet max height elf can bash down even a near-max strength dwarf with a higher bash skill pretty easily, and the dwarf will find it impossible to knock the elf down (I.E, fail 100 out of 100 times). And will in fact, often be reverse-bashed. It's just...wrong. Same thing applies to fighting gith.

Imo, skill level should always account for the vast majority of a skill's effectiveness. All that size is worthless, perhaps even harmful, if you don't know how to use it.

[Rhapsody of Zalanthas]

Heh, just recently witnessed a rather large lizard animal get reverse-bashed by a rather new hunter for the sole fact that the hunter was taller, I would think. Just doesn't seem right.

[Kalden]

The formula that Morgones proposed is perfect! Add strength as a factor to that and it's golden. Height actually does make it easier to be bashed over.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Just out of curiosity, how does one get real life experience knocking a few animals with four legs off their balance?

Cow tipping man..  you'd think everyone would know that.. oh wait..

IMHO, there's no f'in way an elf is bashing.. much of anything, elf against a human would be close, but a dwarf is short and heavy.. for an experiment..

Try setting up a square block.. a cinder block and push it over with a feather.

Now on the same note, stand up a pencil and push it with a feather.. which falls? The pencil... thus, dwarves should pwn elves.

What about carru?

Half-giants are pwners and everyone knows that, humans are alright, half-elves... who cares, elves? psh, weak. Dwarves? Stout as oxen.. mantis? Simply badass and then... BRAINZ..

But seriously.. I think it should just be racial mods, something like..

Elf - 1
Helf - 2
Human - 2.5
Dwarf - 4
Mul - 20
HG - 50000000

So.. obviously, an elves' agility will make up for his lack of bashness, but a dwarf's lack of agility will make out with his bashness... yes, make out.

So.. in lamens terms, lay off the reefer.

Dwarves win.
Elves - Pwnt.

[Rhyden]

So.. in lamens terms, lay off the reefer.

That's where you lost me.

[Clearsighted]

I just want it to have skill and strength be a greater factor than size. No need for complicated racial modifications.

As of now, a human 76 inches tall with average strength will easily outbash a 70 inch tall human with AI strength.

It encourages people to max their heights.

[X-D]

I'm going to go with Morganes suggestion, the more I look at it the more I like it. Add in strength and skill and we are good.

Playing around with friends and co-workers, I find that the biggest thing to decide if I can knock somebody down is simple mass, followed by skill then strength then agility.

Women are the easiest to knock over, even the ones that are my size. Sorry gals, but you are weaker.

Against people my height but weighing at least 50lbs less, if they are agile its basicly a stalemate. They simply are not strong enough or mass enough to knock me over and they are simply quick enough to avoid me being able to knock them over easily.

Actually, two males, one weighing 145lbs at 5'7" and the other at 160lbs 6'2" working together could not knock me over. And I'm 6' 200lbs. Of course they are both 21 and 23 years old and I'm pushing forty so I had experiance(skill) On my side as well.

I have a co-worker who is 26 years old, 6'1" 285lbs. He bowls me over with relative ease. And I've knocked him down like 2x now, and both times I had to sneak up on him.

[Hymwen]

Where the hell do you work? Is it normal to like wrestle in the lunch break?

[X-D]

Yup, I work in the shipping department of a rather large production facility, we have lots of free time this time of year.

[Clearsighted]

Did Morgenes proposed suggestion for a new formula for bash ever end up getting implemented?

[Sephiroto]

I'm not aware of one. 

As for my take on it, I like Morgenes height/weight ratio with a strength factor.  I do not like race factors, as those factors are really just based on strength.  The unfortunate fact of the matter it is possible for a human to be almost as strong as a weak mul.  So giving humans an all around bash variable of 5 and muls 25 just isn't all that well rounded at all.

Based on recent events I'd like to see this changed.  I have a character who isn't as tall as elves, but weighs more and is probably much stronger than them.  It seems like my character has difficulty bashing elves based on the hight factor alone.

[Synthesis]

You're probably having difficulty bashing elves because the major defense to bash seems to be agility.

Anyone who's ever tried bashing a halfling (even with a half-giant) knows what I'm talking about.

At that point, it makes sense:  just because you're strong doesn't mean that you can actually make contact with someone who can do backflips over you while you're charging after them.

[X-D]

Synthesis is correct.

My last dwarf warrior could easily bash things MUCH taller then him, but would have problems with halflings and other very high agi PC/NPCs no matter the height. And I think there is one other variable that matters, but I will not say on here, test for yourself.

[Sephiroto]

No, I don't know what you're talking about.  I've had plenty of experience with halfling and my perception is that elves have been better at dodging my bashes than halfling.  I've seen half-giants who don't seem to have any problems bashing halfling or elves on a regular basis.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

With half-giants, the size factor makes up for the agility factor.

[Janna]

I missed this thread when it was first around, but my 2 sids on it is to leave it alone.

This is kind of an RL misconception that height and weight matter. A ten year old could kick out a 600 pound, five foot man/woman's knee and push and send them toppling. I envision bash IG as an open ended technique, not just some flying dwarf torpedo behind a shield to crash into your chest as hard as they can. If I have a five foot, 120lbs pc and she effectively knocks someone over who is -obviously- way bigger then she is via description, then I throw out a combat emote of a leg sweep, knee kick, or something that would make them off-balance along with my body weight hitting them. If it fails, well, then throw out a combat emote again saying how you totally blew your attempt and ended up on your face.

Anyone who's ever watched martial art tournaments for Karate or such would have noticed their are no weight classes, (one's I've been in, anyway) and I've personally seen one black belt who was hovering on the 5'4 mark and -maybe- 130lbs send another black belt who was easily 6'3 and 230lbs flying like a feather.

[Is Friday]

Let's see that happen in a non-sports martial arts tournament. Size matters immensely in any ground fight.

[Qzzrbl]

It's fun to emote tripping over a dwarf after a failed bash attempt. 

[fourTwenty]

Let's see that happen in a non-sports martial arts tournament. Size matters immensely in any ground fight.

Yes and no.

Size matters if you have two untrained fighters on the ground. If either of the two know what they are doing then there are advantages to being the taller or smaller guy. You just have to know what your advantage is and apply it. Royce Gracie, 'nuff said.

As far as bash, I think it should be based purely on skill and left open-ended like already suggested. If a HG sends an elf rolling, emote it was a shoulder-check from Drov. If a dwarf want's to bash over that same elf, emote a shoulder toss or dropkick to knee.

If you want to get IRL with it (which I suggest we don't, because as much as I would like to lean the game toward RL as much as possible, some players want fantasy. And it is a fantasy game.) skill is -all- that matters. I'm only 5'6, 145 (135 fighting weight) and I doubt there's a person on this board I can't put on the ground (and if there is anyone on this board I can't take down it's because they're more skilled than I, size has -NOTHING- to do with it).

So to reiterate, why not just base it -solely- on bash skill and let our awesome RP'rs emote why the shortest dwarf on Zalanthas just flipped that Mul over his shoulder like a sack of flour.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd like to see the wording for 'bash' changed to:
Success:The brawny woman takes the lithe man off of his feet.
Failure:The brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but stumbles.
Reverse:The lithe man reverses the brawny woman's attempt to take him down and takes her down instead.

That is a simple statement of fact, instead of something subjective. It allows the greatest freedom for emoters, and for those that don't, it's again perfectly factorial. If command emoting is added to this, it makes it even better.
Success:Charging forward, the brawny woman takes the lithe man off of his feet.
Failure:Charging forward, the brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but stumbles.
Reverse::Charging forward, the brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but he takes her down instead!

[FuSoYa]

I'd like to see the wording for 'bash' changed to:
Success:The brawny woman takes the lithe man off of his feet.
Failure:The brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but stumbles.
Reverse:The lithe man reverses the brawny woman's attempt to take him down and takes her down instead.

That is a simple statement of fact, instead of something subjective. It allows the greatest freedom for emoters, and for those that don't, it's again perfectly factorial. If command emoting is added to this, it makes it even better.
Success:Charging forward, the brawny woman takes the lithe man off of his feet.
Failure:Charging forward, the brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but stumbles.
Reverse::Charging forward, the brawny woman tries to take the lithe man off of his feet but he takes her down instead!

That's cool.  Little changes like that I think would go a long way.

Brandon

[a strange shadow]

Wording it like that surely would make the fights sexier to watch.

Or maybe I'm just dirty-minded.

[Gimfalisette]

Wording it like that surely would make the fights sexier to watch.

Or maybe I'm just dirty-minded.

Code Select Expand


Ripping off her shirt to flash him some boobies, the brawny woman takes the lithe man off his feet.


I can definitely see the usefulness.

[Kalden]

The benefits associated with large size can be countered by hide/sneak benefits for small size, and perhaps other benefits (less food/water required, able to fit into smaller areas, which is already coded).

[Synthesis]

Wording it like that surely would make the fights sexier to watch.

Or maybe I'm just dirty-minded.

Code Select Expand


Ripping off her shirt to flash him some boobies, the brawny woman takes the lithe man off his feet.


I can definitely see the usefulness.

Now pair that with the crim code:

You are now wanted!

[Clearsighted]

The benefits associated with large size can be countered by hide/sneak benefits for small size, and perhaps other benefits (less food/water required, able to fit into smaller areas, which is already coded).

I long to someday find a place only big enough for dwarves, and far away from halflings.

[Qzzrbl]

Short, really heavy people should get bonuses to bash, and to evading bash.

See, when a tall person tries to tackle someone.... They're essentially just throwing all of their weight into it.

But when a short, heavy person goes at it, they have a leverage advantage. They can push up off the ground and use their legs more when trying to take someone off their feet.

Just something I've observed.

[Fnord]

Just something I've observed.

[roughneck]

Mass and height both share equal parts in the idea, 'size' to me.  I'd like the code to reflect it.. and so would every dwarven warrior heh heh.