Size and Bash

[LauraMars]

At Morgenes' request, let's start discussing in -this- thread how size factors into bash and what is/is not realistic about it.

If I were given a choice for a quick fix, I'd prefer that weight be more of a  deciding factor in the bash skill, not size as it seems to be currently.  This seems an easy band-aid on the problem, but if someone has something more elegant, propose.

I think an elf being wonderful at bashing (and they are) is unrealistic - they may be the largest coded pcs besides half-giants, but they are light like birds are light.  An elf bashing a dwarf should be like a reed trying to knock over a stump.

(Check out the page of this thread for previous thoughts on the topic: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22944&start=30)

[jhunter]

Weight and strength should be the primary factors besides skill. Height shouldn't really factor into it.

[Morgenes]

Think carefully on this.  There needs to be some kind of ratio that benefits heavier weight and shorter height.  Unfortunately weight in the game is measured in ten stone, which doesn't give us a lot of variation.  A elf can be between 7-9 ten-stone and a dwarf can be between 8-10.

Height is a much bigger range, elves being 74-90 inches and dwarves going from 50-58.

My intial thought would be to do a weight to height ratio, which would enforce a benefit to being heavier and shorter.  Either way, weight needs to be brought to stones instead of ten-stone, so we must multiply it by 10.  Something along the lines of:

Code Select Expand

ratio = ((weight * 10)/ height) * 10

This ratio could be computed for each side in a contest, and the difference between the two could be applied as a modifier to the skill contest.

So let's take a thin, tall dwarf and compare it against a thick, short elf:

Code Select Expand

dwarf ratio = ((8 * 10)/58) * 10 = 13
elf ratio = ((9 * 10)/74) * 10 = 12


This would only imply a 1 difference between the two.  

Now let's take a thick short dwarf compared to a tall, thin elf:

Code Select Expand

dwarf ratio = ((10 * 10)/50) * 10 = 20
elf ratio = ((6 * 10)/90) * 10 = 6


Here the ratio gives a 14 difference between the two, a signifcant advantage based purely on size alone.  But still, compared to skills, this likely won't amount to much.

For the record, half-giants are 75-90 stone and 125-155 inches.

An obscene half-giant's ratio's would be in the 72 range (((90 * 10)/125) * 10), putting them well beyond the chance of just about anything smaller than them.  I like these values for this result.

Maybe just adding in strength (as jhunter suggests) or a contest between the two would be enough to help.

[Nao]

The thing is, that elves are still heavier than humans.

[Marauder Moe]

The problem with weight (and height), though, is that you can freely choose it during character creation.  If it was known that it affects some combat skills (I don't know if it did, or it does now, or what), the powergaming-inclined might be tempted to always make max-weight warrior characters.  I think have it based on race makes more sense, as races each come with drawbacks anyway.

Now... if weight had a penalty associated with it as well as a boon to combat, things might work better for balance.

[Hymwen]

the powergaming-inclined might be tempted to always make max-weight warrior characters

This is already the case, although not universally. There are certain benefits to max height and weight which makes a lot of stat-focused players go that way.

As for how to balance bash, how about simply making your race matter and then have size/weight mean a lot less, before factoring in strength and skill? Pulling numbers out of my rear end here:

Code Select Expand

Race   -    Bash Bonus
Dwarf         10
Human         5
Half-elf      4
Desert Elf    4
City Elf      2
Halfling     -5
Mul           20
Half-giant    35
(the reason d-elves are slightly better than city elves is that they are generally more muscular, or so says 'help elf')

Then have stats and skill factor in, as well as weight but not to such an extent that it will make people choose their character's appearance based on how good they want to be at bash.

Edit: okay, my numbers weren't too thought-through, but the main idea is to have your race be the deciding factor moreso than coded weight.

[Dalmeth]

Well, I think height and weight shouldn't be calculated at all in regard to the bash equation.  The thing is, many of the ideas of why height and weight make a difference is based on certain physical characteristics that are associated with them.  A short, fat man is not going to be as nearly as good as bashing as a fit dwarf.

I think success in bashing should be based primarily on strength, and that's all.  It's just one of the problems with our current, semi-random stat allocation : size and weight don't always corespond with a character's strength.

[Pale Horse]

Too me, I've always thought of bash as any sort of technique or skill that alowes my character to knock the other off his feet.  This ranges from the coded "bashing body into other to knock it down", to sticking my foot out and tripping my opponent, using a weapon to knock his sweep his feet out from beneath, to any other varriety of moves.  As such, I'm not really moved for a change in the bashing skill.

But to get into this discussion, I would agree with anyone who advocates a mixture of height and weight and strength remedy, but not forgeting skill, of course.  Having the vast knowledge of wrestling and brawling that I do (essentially zip), I can easily see where superior skill has won out almost every time versus an opponent of a roughly similar weight and height.  It's only when you get into the extream differences do you begin to find that even for all your skill, you can't really get an opponent nearly twice your height and weight to loose his balance or become subdued.

[Clearsighted]

Maybe just adding in strength (as jhunter suggests) or a contest between the two would be enough to help.

That may be the best solution.

[X-D]

I like keeping it simple and am in favor of adding strength....and looking over Morgenes post, if that could be done it seems quite realistic.

[jmordetsky]

I like Morg's post. I think the race mod idea Hymwen posted is a good idea as well, *but* it would really be covered by by a strength mod (suggested by XD) giving giant, dwarves and muls a much deserved boost. I like the strength mod because it would give (hopefully) a dwarf with similar proportions to a short stocky human an advantage.

I have no ideas of my own.

[spawnloser]

I like the height/weight ratio factoring in, as well as strength.

And for those that keep mentioning skill, skill will ALWAYS factor in, as it is a skill.

I don't like race being a factor, because all that would accomplish is to give a broad bonus/penalty to everyone based on size...without actually calculating the size.

To address particular examples:
Desert elves are stronger than city elves?  Having strength factor in will account for this.

Dwarves are stocky?  Height/weight ratio will factor this in.

Fat people in general?  Height/weight ratio again.

Half-giants are twice as tall as humans but roughly ten times as heavy, not to mention ridiculously strong?  Yeah, height/weight ratio and strength being factored in will take care of this.

Halflings?  Same as above...height/weight and strength both again.

[Kelamson]

I don't like the idea of racial mods. They mean that all mobs need to have a mod assigned (or at least to their race). Way too much work I would think.

Just using strength is OK, but it would be nice to factor in some other things. For example a four (or more) legged creature would be harder to bash than a two-legged creature because it has a lower center of gravity. Also if two creatures have the same strength and one has considerably more mass (momentum) then it should have an advantage.

I like Morgenes' formula, because it factors this in. A creature with four or more legs will be more long than high, so it works. Adding in strength (or some bonus from strength) would finish it off.

I'll assume that charge will work the same way. :twisted:

[Tuannon]

I think it should be based on the amount of force one can apply toward the target's centre of gravity, it is nothing or very little to do with strength or weight.

An elf would be next to useless at bashing, because his or her centre of gravity is a good foot or more above that of a human, and way above that of a dwarf. However, it should be quite difficult to actually bash an elf because they are so nimble and tend to step away or roll with the majority of the impact.

Long story short, perhaps a base number based on race and build that is modified by skill and perhaps class for the basher opposed by a racial base number modified by dexterity and class for the bashee.

[X-D]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

[spawnloser]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Not when trying to kill in a head-on attack...from the side?  Yeah, four-legged critters tip easier than most would think.

[Cyrian20]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Not when trying to kill in a head-on attack...from the side?  Yeah, four-legged critters tip easier than most would think.

No -anything- tips easily from the side, tip a two legged creature and a four legged creature and the two legged will fall easier. So yes four fall easy but still harder then two.

[Zalanthan]

First off, it sounds like we need to clarify what exactly "bash"ing is in Armageddon.  I do not think Pale Horse's broad interpretation is incorrect with the current code, but I think it is important to remind ourselves that just because the end result of a successful bash is your opponent ending up on his arse, I don't think this should be viewed as an opportunity to role-play a cunning trip or a wrestling take-down.  After all, the limit of our characters' in-combat actions is disarm, kick, and bash, which I believe should all be vastly different.  So even though I want to argue that your foe's agility should be the dominantly governing stat*, I believe it factors largely in the other two skills so we should try to strive for balance here.  It is likely the end result will be some composite of these ideas, but I am another supporter of keeping it simple - even if that means:

Disarm = Agility (subtle hand/blade movements)
Kick = Strength (BREAK those shins!)
Bash = Endurance (standing ground rather than avoiding foe's rush)

Finally, let me say I am glad someone intoduced center of gravity into the discussion, as that factors enormously into this type of situation.  And, unless it complicates things, please consider the idea of using a shield as a bonus to a bash attempt (shove 'em down and skewer their belly).

Z


* Anyone detecting a larger foe rushing towards them to knock them down (highly likely in 1v1 combay) is going to rely on their agility to move out of the way at the last moment, ideally giving the foe a nasty riposte as well.

[rgbrook]

I greatly dislike the idea of racial modifiers to any skill unless they originate from some major racial affinity or common experience, and I feel that any racial modifiers should affect the starting levels of skills rather than modifying the skill caps in any way.  This is especially true of physical skills.  The ultimate limit of achievement in any physical skill should be governed strictly by physical characteristics (i.e. strength, endurance, agility, size, shape, mass, etc...) and the ability of the character to use such characteristics appropriately (i.e. skill level) since physical activities are almost exclusively governed by classical mechanics (including biomechanics).  Further, excepting serious mismatches in physical characteristics (i.e. halflings, half-giants, etc...), the skill level should have the greatest affect on the outcome by a signficant margin.  

I base this position on both theory and practical experience/observation.  Skill level shows up in relevant equations through better use of relative positions, momentums, and angles to maximize the effect of a technique/exchange.  Relative angles, in particular, can be very important in obtaining a positive outcome from even the most extreme of circumstances since they typically show up in trigonometric coefficients that are multiplied across many terms of relevant mechanical equations.  Typically, relative momentums and forces (i.e. strength) tend to establish the amplitude of the trigonometric curves corresponding to the possible values for individual terms in the governing equations, but relative angles determine which point on the trigonmetric curve corresponds to the solutions for the respective terms in the equation.  This is largely the reason that a properly trained 60-year-old woman weighing about 90 pounds and standing just under 5 feet tall can throw a 350-pound man standing over 7 feet tall -- a feat that I have personally witnessed.  

Before formulating a bash modifier that takes into account the physical aspects of both the attacker and defender, I think it is important to define a "bash".  Does it strictly include slamming into the target?  Does it include any attempt to throw the target off-balance?  I personally think that bash should include everything from slamming into a target to foot sweeps to hip throws to garumas and more.  Basically, I think that bash should include any grappling action (including a collision) that is intended to throw/lead the opponent to the ground in some manner.  If this definition is adopted, then there is sufficient latitude in the actual choice of technique to accomodate the use of any or all of the physical characteristics mentioned above on the part of both the attacker and the defender.  This definition would also mean that skill (as represented by the proper choice and application of an appropriate technique/counter-technique) would play the dominant role in the exchange.

If any immortals are interested, I would be happy to formulate several possible model equation, but it would be much simpler to do so and much more directly applicable if some general idea of the characteristics for PCs and mobs that are available in the code for use in the model could be identified.  

Regarding Morganes' ratio of mass to height, I am a little concerned that the overall effect might be a simple shift in advantage from tall, massive characters to short, massive characters unless appropriate advantages and disadvantages for both height and weight exist throughout the game.  To the best of my current knowledge, height and weight are only taken into account in a few bits of code rather than uniformly wherever they might be appropriate.  If the ratio is simply employed as a small portion of the result (say 20%) then it might not be a big enough deal to result in a bunch of short, massive human warriors.  Regardless, the ratio is certainly a better idea than simply using the size of a character/mob, unless the idea of size is rescaled appropriately.  The current size chart seems to be more heavily biased in terms of height than mass.  Perhaps a few adjustments to the size scale combined with a rebalancing of the effect of size on bash might be sufficient to address the issue at hand.

[X-D]

I do think shields should come into play on the skill as well both for using and defending against.

My PC's almost never even try to bash if using two weapons and no shield or a two-handed weapon.

I also emote the push and trip, shield sweep and more so only about 20% of my PC's bashes are direct frontal.

Bash has always been one of the skills that I've always found mildly annoying. specialy when you take strength, center of gravity and weight to factor.

Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

[Sokotra]

I
Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

Heh, I'll have to add this to my gripes about dwarves.   Not that I don't think they are good as they are, but (without knowing exactly how the code works) I just don't think they are working quite the way they should be working as far as this goes as well as their strength and poison resistance.

[Clearsighted]

Had a very strong and short dwarf once who wore some of the heaviest armor in game (not including metal of course) max weight, min height. A three and a half foot tall 250lbs pile of muscle covered in another 200+ pounds of armor (450lbs total) who would routinely get knocked over by things weighing less then 200 pounds including all the gear they had on and on the low end of the strength scale. Shit, just mass alone should prevent that. Nothing worse then getting knocked over by a min weight max height teenage half-elf wearing only sandcloth.

I would like to see weight have a greater impact on one's size. Being 10 stones as opposed to 9 stones is a much greater difference than being 65 inches tall as opposed to 60. Yet I think now, it is factored in something like 61 to 60 inches would be. Frankly, I'd like to see weight given much more range, instead of the fairly narrow band it is in right now.

[Pantoufle]

Just to throw a wrench in the whole argument here, in judo one is taught that a slight woman can topple a huge man many times her size and seemingly throw the person across the room by using the larger person's weight.  It typically doesn't work quite like that but the idea here is that smaller and lighter is taught to throw larger and heavier onto the ground (i.e., they are no longer standing -- which happens to be the result of a successful bash).

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

[Clearsighted]

Just to throw a wrench in the whole argument here, in judo one is taught that a slight woman can topple a huge man many times her size and seemingly throw the person across the room by using the larger person's weight.  It typically doesn't work quite like that but the idea here is that smaller and lighter is taught to throw larger and heavier onto the ground (i.e., they are no longer standing -- which happens to be the result of a successful bash).

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

The stronger and heavier person still has the advantage. It is just a case of 'skill' here.

(And I think given the brutal nature of Zalanthas, it is safe to assume that a bash is more akin to trying to knock someone down with brute force or with a shield, not as a more elegant martial arts throwing maneuver).

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Actually, its has been my real life experiance that many if not most animals on four legs have a rather poorly developed sense of balance and go down rather easily to your friendly neighberhood leather clad long haired human.

Just out of curiosity, how does one get real life experience knocking a few animals with four legs off their balance?

Is it conceivable that someone bashing an opponent, be they a light and wispy elf or a thick and blocky dwarf, might be using methods such as these, rather than simply (and brainlessly) acting as a mere battering ram?

I think in the case of bash, it is a brute force attack rather than a throw. I believe the reversal of kicks (as they are coded now) is more akin to a judo or aikido redirection of force, where coded size is not so important when a smaller PC catches the kick of a bigger PC and pushes them to the floor with their momentum.