Unintentional climbing

[a foreign presence]

We all know the scenario. You're walking around somewhere, exploring tunnels or cliffs and at some point you walk into a room that in no way hinted that there was a drop, and you plummet to the ground.

Would it be unreasonable to ask for some kind of choice, maybe a nosave flag, that prevents you from mindlessly stepping into a pit or off the side of a mountain? I understand that sometimes the sudden lack of firm ground might not be obvious, but other times the way rooms work makes for unrealistic situations without any warning, and your character sees fit to walks straight over the edge no matter how much you take care, how many light sources you carry and how much your character watches where they're going.

[Beux]

Yeh. Alright, slipping into that hole concealed beneath a tangle of vines...Fair play. Walking straightforwards over the edge of a mile wide crater, that strikes the world into two, well...unless you were suicidal, you just wouldn't do it.

[Djarjak]

Could you describe a scenario where typing exits (the equivalent of a quick look around before proceeding) might not suffice to notify you that the room you are about to enter will plunge you off the edge of a cliff?

[Beux]

Perhaps running away from a critter along the road near the shield wall? If you -were- running along the road and you could -see- the drop...well, there's no way you'd just run off the edge...especially since there's a road there, so I'm assuming those rooms are supposed to be suitably sized, however in a moment of panic - I can imagine a player might mistype a direction or get confused...and thus throw themselves off the edge of the wall by accident.

Hang on. Yeah...I've done that.

[Eternal]

I have yet to find a room on the edge of a plummet that didn't explicitly say so in the description.  As far as fleeing animals, mebbe it's the only direction the hostile beastie would let you escape... I know if I was a beastie and could pin you between a fall and my teeth, I'd choose that.  If you fled, you would fall... it's your choice, plummet to your death (and possibly succeed on a climb check and not die) or be food.

If I ever encountered a room with a surprise drop that didn't have leading rooms that spelled out 'doom ahead', I'd probably typo the room, or bug the falling one (if I hadn't already fallen/died, heh).  Haven't encountered this yet...  though.  I can think of only a small handful of rooms that I've encountered where a climb check might not have saved you, and really... they're obvious as all heck.

Reading descriptions is good, fighting beasties on precipices is bad.

[Olaf]

It's your choice, plummet to your death (and possibly succeed on a climb check and not die) or be food.

Which is exactly the point ... if you as the player can't see the giant cliff, then your character doesn't get to make said choice.

[UnderSeven]

I can actually think of some examples where this is the case, though i couldn't come up with specific examples.  There are rooms in this game, and I've encountered a lot, where not only does the title not denote a fall, but the room description is ambigious about it either.  When in those rooms (sometimes you don't have to climb to get into) I often just drop an object and see if it plummets or not.  This is clearly an ooc action I'm doing to gain ic information.  But it's the only sure fire way.

EDIT: When I do the item drop test, I always give an ic reason for it, such as fumbling with my stuff.

[Djarjak]

So the real problem isn't the fact that the fall is unexpected or otherwise concealed, but that you don't have the time to look for the warning signs in the room description or with the exits command while you're running for your life?

How would you suggest this be addressed in addition to the current controls:

In the room descriptions leading up to the fall
In the Exits command (the room name of the target room indicating a precipice)
...

[Cyrian20]

So the real problem isn't the fact that the fall is unexpected or otherwise concealed, but that you don't have the time to look for the warning signs in the room description or with the exits command while you're running for your life?

How would you suggest this be addressed in addition to the current controls:

In the room descriptions leading up to the fall
In the Exits command (the room name of the target room indicating a precipice)
...

I can name a room a lot of magicker pc's will know about (it has to be a favorite hang out spot lol) Where you look east and see a room, when you walk into it. BAM! a hole in the floor that my charcter would never have approached... Too late now though.

[LoD]

The few times that I've actually fallen off a wall were not because I was choosing to swan dive into some brush, or being pursued, or pushed, or unable to read the room description, but because I mistyped.

I hit n od instead of nod.

I hit an extra 'n' by accident.

I was thinking 'n' but hit 'e' instead.

And so my character, in a completely unrealistic and unintended way, goes base jumping off a cliff.  I've lived with the consequences without complaining, but it'd be nice for rooms that have a clear and obvious drop to have a flag that disallowed people from travelling that direction unless they typed out the complete command.

Present Example

Code Select Expand

Edge of the Shield Wall [NEWS]

You look at the exist:
North - In the Air
East - Sandy Wastes
West - Sandy Wastes
South - Sandy Wastes

The scrawny, bead-eyed man says, in sirihish:
   "Yeah, I love the Byn too.  Are we ready to go, Sarge?"

>n od
You walk north.

In the Air [EWSD]
You slip, and fall.

Proposed Example

Code Select Expand

Edge of the Shield Wall [NEWS]

You look at the exist:
North - In the Air
East - Sandy Wastes
West - Sandy Wastes
South - Sandy Wastes

The scrawny, bead-eyed man says, in sirihish:
   "Yeah, I love the Byn too.  Are we ready to go, Sarge?"

>n od
You begin to step off the edge, then take a step back.  Type 'north' if you wish to continue.

>north
You walk north.

In the Air [EWSD]
You slip, and fall.

What people are claiming is that their character would realistically "see" the drop off when they were moving through the area.  The character shouldn't be affected by someone misreading the words, the screen scrolling too fast, hitting an extra keystroke, or a mistype.  The character wouldn't just walk off the edge of a cliff unless being affected by an outside force (i.e. mind control, magick, weather, attackers).  Other commonly mistyped commands that resulted in accidents have been addressed in different ways: "sl" used to make you sleep, now you must type the entire word, "k" used to trigger the 'kill' command instead of the 'kiss' command.

I'm sure these falling situations can be RP'd as "slipping" or a "ledge crumbling" or something like that, but I lump that in with "rationalizing unrealistic behavior" because of the lack of alternatives.  I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of measure put in place that kept someone from accidentally mistyping themselves off a sheer drop without making it a deliberate choice.

Hidden or obscured drops (i.e. pit traps, sinkholes, rooms affected by darkness or heavy weather) wouldn't be applicable.  Whether that's even able to be coded is questionable, but if there was a way to easily to add this functionality to thet most obvious of drops, I'd be for it.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

This 'hey, enter the whole command if you wanna go cliff-jumping' functionality does already exist in game somewhere...or something like it.

Is the proposal to add this function to all places similar?

[LoD]

This 'hey, enter the whole command if you wanna go cliff-jumping' functionality does already exist in game somewhere...or something like it.

Is the proposal to add this function to all places similar?

It exists with the 'sleep' command as well as the 'quit' command.  It also exists, partially, with the short command 'k' for kill, which was switched to represent kiss instead, which normally has less drastic consequences.

The problem is that there are going to be situations where an abbreviated movement command (i.e. n, e, w, s) should result in a fall because they were walking in a sandstorm, through dense foliage, in the dark, etc...and fell off the edge of something their character legitimitely couldn't see.

I don't know if the code can differentiate whether or not a drop is visible, hidden, or obscured enough to make the solution any more realistic than the problem.  That's why I mentioned being unsure whether or not this could even exist in game.

-LoD

[Agent_137]

i can think of some rooms that describe mountain cliffs, but they don't tell you if they go down from your level or up!

i usually forget to use the exit command though, have to make more of a habit of that.

[Hymwen]

There are some places in under-tuluk where it pretty much just says "the tunnel branches north from here" or something like that.

[Beux]

I'd like t see some sort of stop in place. But like mentioned, there should be exceptions for storms, and I think for flee too. If you are actually battling it out on the edge of the cliff...there should be a chance of falling when you flee.

As for foliage - surely this would have to be set by giving the room being entered a flag or such? So drops that would never, realistically be seen would just not get this flag assigned?

[Twilight]

There is a particular zone I can think of that has some drops that you have to read in the room description, and it is only hinted at.  As an added bonus, this place has different room descriptions at night than at daytime, and in some cases as least, these hints disappear.

Which in my opinion, makes it just that much more of an awesome place.  The ut-o factor from entering a fall room without realizing it is not something I'd personally want to get rid of.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, there is a skill flee for determining which direction you go...like away from the cliff face.  You should not be protected from cliffs when fleeing.

In general, the thought that obvious drops should have a preventative measure?  If there's something that obscures the obvious qualities of the cliff face, I don't want those measures to protect you.  In those locations where similar measures are already in place, I think this is the case too.

However, I like that in most instances, tharen't preventative code-based measures to prevent a fall.  Let me tell you why.

What it comes down to is this, as you are travelling, for you to see that hole up ahead, you have to look ahead.  This is represented by you slowing down when in unfamiliar territory and actually using the look command.  If there is no hint in the room you are in or when looking in the direction where a fall is located, I think it should be considered a typo, and hopefully anyone that falls prey to this survives to typo it.  If you're running along, one room ahead of that mekillot that's chasing you, you're running along...if you want to see the drop off ahead, you have to look.

I think that the way things are now represents reality quite well.  Granted, I will not be opposed to a coded measure being implemented for the newbies' sakes, but would remain happier with the way things are...even with having fallen prey to these sorts of falls before.

[bloodfromstone]

I like LoD's solution quite a bit. As long as builders could still make sneaky fall rooms for when they should be unnoticable, I think it's the perfect solution.

[Twisted Minstrel]

Hah, I remember this one time I was a ranger leading some girl around the desert. We get to a large gulch near the shield wall and I look down and see a kank, I say something along the lines of, "Holy damn, l saw that kank down there last week... it's owner must've died."
And she says something along the lines of, "Oooh, lookie there... I think we should go get it."
I offer her water, and the next thing I know, she hurls herself over the edge... apparently she was typing 'no thanks' to the water, and the game registered it as 'north' and dooowwnnn she went. I thought I was leading around Armageddon's own ubernoob at first.

[Hymwen]

I think this would work if:

There's a way for the code to distinguish obvious and hidden falls

It doesn't work if your character is running

It doesn't work if there's low visibility (sandstorm, darkness and your torch is dim, etc.)

[creeper386]

I don't like the idea of some set sort of stop function like that. I think the room descriptions and exits and such should just be modified. I have seem a few places that with all the information I was given it didn't truly indicate a fall as far as I can see, just the edge of the cliff, I consider the edge of the cliff as a place suitable to stand on, not in mid air falling off the cliff, but maybe that's just me.

Again, I don't like the idea of some sort of auto stop honestly, at first I was thinking it might be a good idea ... But honestly, I don't sympathize with someone that has something because of a typo, yes sometimes shit happens, but there are things you can do to prevent them. Like pay more attention when your characters not in a safe spot and just not typing 'n ever!' OR ... perhaps it can be made that if there is the space and then some other text, the MUD won't recognize it as north? There are a few other things to go around that I think it would be easier then adding in flags and going around changing all the rooms. Just pay more attention, sure some things happen but a automagick safe guard isn't the best solution, IMO.

Creep

[jhunter]

I just think that the room descriptions should be checked to make it obvious that going a direction is going to cause you to fall if it is supposed to be obvious. If not, surprise falls are perfectly acceptable. I have encountered several places in the game where there are (what should be obvious) drop offs that the adjacent room descriptions either only vaguely hint at or say nothing at all.

[Agent_137]

Yea, I saw one earlier, where the north road bends east from heading south for awhile from Luirs.

If you take a step west from the road, there's a sheer cliff drop off on the west and south. The room desc isn't very clear on this, it just talks about a dropoff, but doesnt' give which direction.

typing exit does, and knowing the area helps for sure.

So I dunno, there's defintely some improvement that could be done. Hard to say what, though.

[Akaramu]

[with the short command 'k' for kill, which was switched to represent kiss instead, which normally has less drastic consequences.

Ummm... 'k templar' anyone?  :lol:

I'm all for safeguards that prevent players from having their PCs die in stupid unrealistic ways the character would have easily avoided if it were not for code hiccups. Those really are the lamest ways to die.

[ThirdEye]

I aliased my 'k' button for skdjsfhshf

That way I am never caught out

[Djarjak]

If you spot a room that leads to a sudden precipice, and that precipice should be more obvious than it is - or it's not otherwise mentioned in the room descs leading to it, typo it for me, and I'll try to make sure the room descs get updated appropriately.

Note: As it has already been mentioned, there are -several- rooms that are -intentionally- sneaky or otherwise are justified because of the nature of the rooms. Please don't typo these. I'm looking more for the types of things where it should be obvious you're walking along the edge of the grand canyon, for example.

[musashi]

Raising it up from the dead!

I have a question, if your character has the climb skill or is savvy with climbing, ect ect ... when you do choose to walk over the edge of a cliff, or walk into a room that you know has a hole in it ... does the code check to see if you "climbed" into the room safely (and can from there type down or what not) ... or does stepping into a room like this automatically cause your character to plummet unless they're flying?

I could see some badass ranger/thief running straight towards the edge of a cliff/building with a bahamet/soldier hot on their heels, jumping off the edge only to grab onto something just below the drop-off point, letting the followers either break off persuit, or take their chances falling also.

Not sure if the code allows such a thing to happen though.

[Tisiphone]

Find out IC. And no, really, the finding out will be awesome.

[musashi]

Right, because it will completely kill the mystery of the game for me to prematurely learn if the code supports the idea of being able to use a rope to go /down/ a cliff-face, instead of up it without hurling my character over the edge a couple hundred times to test the ratio of success to fail.

[Tisiphone]

No, 'twon't, but I'm telling you, in all seriousness, the finding out will be awesome.

[musashi]

I think you're just sniffing for new boots.

[Riev]

This one, I ran off the Shield Wall and didn't die. OOCly I was very angry. Next time, an Argosy.

[Lizzie]

From my experience, most of the drop rooms I've tried have had skill checks. I haven't seen all that many drop rooms though - a couple handfuls of them over my time of playing. I know of some others but never had any reason/need to explore in them. So I have no idea if those have skill checks or if they're coded death-traps.

[Agent_137]

it's a fair question.

email the mud for a delayed but accurate answer.

[Dakkon Black]

As far as I'm concerned it depends on the room. We slip and fall in real life. There are simply places in the world where it is dangerous to even be -near- the edge. Simple as that.

That's right, when you typed "n od" you didn't actually walk to the north. You screwed up. You walked near the edge, and you slipped and fell as the ground crumbled away beneath your footing. There are plenty of places I can think of it would be easy to step too close and slide down with an unlucky moment's carelessness.

[LoD]

I would simply prefer a toggle such as no_jump that you could turn on, and it wouldn't allow your character to walk off an obvious edge without removing the flag from your character.  That way, when I know my character is going to be moving through areas where there are linked exits leading to obvious drop-offs and cliff edges, I don't have to be concerned that my typo causes my character to do something completely unrealistic.

However, this flag would not protect you if you accidentally moved off an edge when:

> Fleeing from combat.
> Stumbling in the dark.
> Stumbling in a sand storm.
> The edge is not plain or obvious (pit trap, quicksand, etc...)

This kind of toggle would provide me with a natural method of curbing unrealistic behavior on the part of my character unless I either want it to happen or it truly is a situation where my character could accidentally fall.

-LoD

[mansa]

I would simply prefer a toggle such as no_jump that you could turn on, and it wouldn't allow your character to walk off an obvious edge without removing the flag from your character.  That way, when I know my character is going to be moving through areas where there are linked exits leading to obvious drop-offs and cliff edges, I don't have to be concerned that my typo causes my character to do something completely unrealistic.

However, this flag would not protect you if you accidentally moved off an edge when:

> Fleeing from combat.
> Stumbling in the dark.
> Stumbling in a sand storm.
> The edge is not plain or obvious (pit trap, quicksand, etc...)

This kind of toggle would provide me with a natural method of curbing unrealistic behavior on the part of my character unless I either want it to happen or it truly is a situation where my character could accidentally fall.

-LoD

But i love dt's, and i always have a backpack full of recall scrolls.
/misses old mud games.

[Agent_137]

yea but then you'd have to flag every dang edge as "obvious" or "not obvious."

hopefully they've already included this in arma 2!

[manonfire]

improper dancing

in the middle of the street

[musashi]

it's a fair question.

email the mud for a delayed but accurate answer.

I did ... though it didn't take them long at all to get back to me!

The answer was yes, you do in fact always get a skill check, so we all have the chance to cling to the edge of the cliff we just walked off of, no matter how small that chance may or may not be.

Happy falling!

[Ladyimp]

If they want you to ask your question in a private mail, and they answer you in a private mail...

Should the question and answer really be posted for all to see?

[musashi]

Does this really strike you as a secret that should only be passed onto those select few who need to know?

Do you see any replies from any member of staff in this thread so far stating that the question is private in nature?

Do you see any replies in this thread from staff at all?

If yes ... then I'm sorry, my bad.

[Rhyden]

I'd say if you can't tell whether the next room is a climb-check room, there's probably a good reason. If not, use the bug command.

[musashi]

I'd say if you can't tell whether the next room is a climb-check room, there's probably a good reason. If not, use the bug command.

*nods* My question had just been: If you actually /want/ to try and go out over the edge of an obviously climb-check room for whatever reason, using a direction command other than up or down. Do you still get a climb check? Or do you fall automatically. The answer being, yes, you always get a climb-check. Yay. 

I'm still not going to base-jump off the Shield Wall to test it though.

[Agent_137]

I did ... though it didn't take them long at all to get back to me!

The answer was yes, you do in fact always get a skill check, so we all have the chance to cling to the edge of the cliff we just walked off of, no matter how small that chance may or may not be.

Happy falling!

Good to know!

Hm, it should also be noted that you can "Scramble for purchase" entering up as you fall. This typically hurts as fingers sliced to ribbons and muscles are pulled out of joint, and other bad things. It might be safer to actually just focus on landing correctly.

[Winterless]

Could you describe a scenario where typing exits (the equivalent of a quick look around before proceeding) might not suffice to notify you that the room you are about to enter will plunge you off the edge of a cliff?

I have yet to find a room on the edge of a plummet that didn't explicitly say so in the description.  As far as fleeing animals, mebbe it's the only direction the hostile beastie would let you escape... I know if I was a beastie and could pin you between a fall and my teeth, I'd choose that.  If you fled, you would fall... it's your choice, plummet to your death (and possibly succeed on a climb check and not die) or be food.

If I ever encountered a room with a surprise drop that didn't have leading rooms that spelled out 'doom ahead', I'd probably typo the room, or bug the falling one (if I hadn't already fallen/died, heh).  Haven't encountered this yet...  though.  I can think of only a small handful of rooms that I've encountered where a climb check might not have saved you, and really... they're obvious as all heck.

Reading descriptions is good, fighting beasties on precipices is bad.

I've found two rooms that give no warning I've bugged them but nothing has been done.

[Salt Merchant]

I would simply prefer a toggle such as no_jump that you could turn on, and it wouldn't allow your character to walk off an obvious edge without removing the flag from your character.  That way, when I know my character is going to be moving through areas where there are linked exits leading to obvious drop-offs and cliff edges, I don't have to be concerned that my typo causes my character to do something completely unrealistic.

However, this flag would not protect you if you accidentally moved off an edge when:

> Fleeing from combat.
> Stumbling in the dark.
> Stumbling in a sand storm.
> The edge is not plain or obvious (pit trap, quicksand, etc...)

This kind of toggle would provide me with a natural method of curbing unrealistic behavior on the part of my character unless I either want it to happen or it truly is a situation where my character could accidentally fall.

-LoD

This.

Although I like the idea of having to type the full direction to force going off of the edge rather than a toggle. More spontaneous.

[Morgenes]

From the game engine, assuming you can see fine:

Code Select Expand

> north
Going that way would require climbing.
<Type 'climb north' to go that way>

> look north
To the north is a cliff side.
Going that way would require climbing.

> climb north
You climb north.
A Cliff Side [N S]
...


Once you start climbing, you're toggled into that movement type, much like running.  If you're going up/down and it's a climb, you don't have to type 'climb <direction>'.

When you are no longer able to climb, but you can go a direction, you can jump that direction to jump off the cliff:

Code Select Expand

> north
Going that way would require jumping.
<Type 'jump north' to go that way>

> look north
To the north is above a wide plain.
Going that way would require jumping.

> jump north
You jump north.
Above a Wide Plain [S U D]
...

You fall...


Note that for the protection of the innocents, the locations above were masked and modified from their original.  The messages related to climbing/jumping are not changed.

[musashi]

That's really cool 

[Delstro]

There is a jump command?

[Morgenes]

There is a jump command?

In Arm 2, yes.

[Dalmeth]

There is a jump command?

In Arm 2, yes.

Just out of curiosity, is jumping a room property or an exit property?  Specifically, can I jump from one room and attempt to grab onto climbable surfaces there?

It seems to me that the way I'm talking about it is over complicated.  I must state that it would be super cool if the world could be built so that some of these jumps could have a climbable room just below them so that a person can attempt to catch themselves.  To me, it would add a degree of acrobatics that would be insanely awesome.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ditto.

ANd maybe being able to jump up and grab something too, and so forth. that would just be badass.

[musashi]

I just like the "jump west" ... you're in mid air ... you fall ... thing. Heh it makes me think of the roadrunner cartoons 

[Zira]

I could see some badass ranger/thief running straight towards the edge of a cliff/building with a bahamet/soldier hot on their heels, jumping off the edge only to grab onto something just below the drop-off point, letting the followers either break off persuit, or take their chances falling also.

Oh my god... I so want to do that, and watch my pursuer run right after me off the cliff...

On the other hand, I agree. a stopper for those obvious drops would be nice.

[musashi]

I could see some badass ranger/thief running straight towards the edge of a cliff/building with a bahamet/soldier hot on their heels, jumping off the edge only to grab onto something just below the drop-off point, letting the followers either break off persuit, or take their chances falling also.

Oh my god... I so want to do that, and watch my pursuer run right after me off the cliff...

On the other hand, I agree. a stopper for those obvious drops would be nice.

Lucky for us both it's already possible in 1.arm