The Labyrinth: how to improve it?

[Sokotra]

Speaking of documentation...

"What you know if you are from the 'Rinth" either has changed or I'm just looking in the wrong place.  I thought there use to be a paragraph that told you about the most well-known gangs/tribes that dwell in the 'Rinth.  Can't seem to find anything like that mentioned anymore.  Maybe someone can shed some more light on this...?

[ShaiHulud]

A single meal costs about a hundred 'sids in the 'Rinth...

Not sure where you are eating in the 'rinth, but I have to disagree with this statement.

[ashyom]

My opinions and some information:
Apartments - I wouldn't like to see the traditional sense of apartments in the 'Rinth or UnderTuluk for that matter.  Having apartments with keys in the crummiest part of the city strikes me as odd.  Not to mention, keys can be stolen - how would they be replaced by whoever 'oversees' the apartments?  However, I think the compromise where a group of people oversees a section of alleys that has a number of non-locking, not-very-private shacks might work.  

Whether any form of apartment went in is up to the imms who oversee the city and the particular regions.

NPCs - If memory serves, the rinth is deliberately empty for a few reasons.  An imm told me some time ago when I asked why there weren't many npcs:  The reason is both IC and OOC - it used to be that players would go into the 'rinth to kill the npcs randomly to skillmax.  Heck, they still do.  So at some point, staff removed a number of npcs to make it more difficult to go whack npcs without a good reason.  Also it helps make the rinth seem a little lonelier.  The 'Rinth isn't meant to be teeming with throngs of people like a bazaar.  

Compared to Nak proper, the population in that section is very low.  Few thousand people in a region that takes up a good chunk of the city.  No overcrowding problems.  Although people might migrate to the rinth, consider that the health conditions are much worse, diseases are more rampant, there's no law, it's 10x more dangerous...the number of people who migrate to northside daily is roughly equal to the number of people who die on a daily basis, probably.

It's like being in dying towns - you know people are around, you can feel their eyes on you, but you won't necessarily see them unless they want you to.

I can't say I'd support adding npcs, heh.  I like it the way it is now.  That's just my personal preference.

Room Echoes - I don't see any problem with this if used sparingly.

Naming Streets - As stated by others, this wouldn't happen easily.  It'd likely require some semblance of governing order, or a widespread, highly publicized event (ie, a major massacre that killed hundreds).  I liked what Spawnloser said, about creating your own way to identify locations ICly.

In the 'Rinth? They'd probably be, as was said, this gang calls this unique intersection in their turf this...and name the stuff around it relative to it...and this place this and this this. They wouldn't tell people what they meant when referring to those places, because then they have their own secret code for navigating around their territory. "Let's split up, eh? You go north and I'll go south. Meetcha at the li'l three way between the big three and the hump in twen'y." All the RP potential and complexity that leaving it this way allows?

My suggestion? Have fun with it. Name them yourself...spread those names to people. If it becomes popular enough that everyone knows it, then we put it in the room title/description.

High Food & Water Costs - This might be a holdover from the days when everyone in rinth got rich by hitting the southside, and not really playing the poor conditions well.  I don't remember who mentioned this earlier in this thread, but whoever you were, if you'd email me with the name/sdesc of these npcs, I'd be happy to take a look at the costs and make sure they're in a realistic range.

I'll chime in further when I've thought more on some other points folks have made.
Ashyom

[LoD]

NPCs - If memory serves, the rinth is deliberately empty for a few reasons.  An imm told me some time ago when I asked why there weren't many npcs:  The reason is both IC and OOC - it used to be that players would go into the 'rinth to kill the npcs randomly to skillmax.  Heck, they still do.  So at some point, staff removed a number of npcs to make it more difficult to go whack npcs without a good reason.  Also it helps make the rinth seem a little lonelier.  The 'Rinth isn't meant to be teeming with throngs of people like a bazaar.

This problem in this line of thinking is that it treats the symptom instead of the disease.  Instead of removing NPC's because of PC's repeatedly attacking them, change the environment to discourage those kind of choices.  Instead of adding more thugs, beggars, or kids walking alone on a random street, create small centers of activity where attempting to murder one of the locals results in a fair bit of unwanted physical attention.

This would accomplish two goals; discourage random attacks on lone NPC's and better flesh out the community of the 'rinth.  You don't have to go crazy adding NPC's, but create "pockets" of activity that help to demonstrate the environment within which these people do live.  If you strip down the atmosphere to be a lonely cage, you have only yourself to blame when it breeds animals.  Provide them with an atmosphere protected by the "laws of the streets" in certain areas, where they can witness poor children, women, and old men not being backstabbed.

Compared to Nak proper, the population in that section is very low.  Few thousand people in a region that takes up a good chunk of the city.  No overcrowding problems.  Although people might migrate to the rinth, consider that the health conditions are much worse, diseases are more rampant, there's no law, it's 10x more dangerous...the number of people who migrate to northside daily is roughly equal to the number of people who die on a daily basis, probably.

Lower population or no, there are still going to be communities that live within the 'rinth.  As I mentioned before, the 'rinth is not full of only 20 and 30-something professional thieves, burglars, assassins, and thugs.  Many of these people likely wrote that they grew up in the 'rinth.  As it described and presently populated?  Not likely.  It's a ghost town deathtrap right now.  Create a few pockets of "poor civilization" that people can witness first hand, interact with, and enjoy instead of prowling dusty alleyways devoid of movement and life.  Give them an idea of what life outside of shadow, backstab, steal, kick, disarm, and sap is like.

The 'rinth is dangerous, but it's still a home to many.  It should reflect more of that feeling than it does.

-LoD

[Nechomacus]

Avast you 'Rinth lovers!

I've seen two sides to this coin recently.  There are characters there now, that havn't left the 'Rinth in IC years.  Often times you don't see these characters.  Why?  They don't want to be seen.  You'll all have to trust that they are there.  I tend to lean toward SLink in this, because I've watched him and others play there for RL years.  HOWEVER....

I've also seen folks that seem to gravitate toward LoD's thinking.

So, without typing forever.  I offer you all this.

LoD - I had an email from you a while ago regarding the 'Rinth.  Forward that to me again along with any ideas you have.  I'm up for discussing and considering anything.  

I've gone through and counted the npcs in the 'Rinth there are over 200+
Again, you may not see them all.

Send me your ideas, your npcs, your bards with songs that have racially and politically charged humor in them.  Ideas for clicks, clans and gangs.

Apartments:  I'm just not sure this is a great idea.  It's hard enough to keep your belongings in an apartment on the southside.  Keeping them northside...well.

That said I'm not against it totally.  

I won't put in everything.  We might only get some of it put in.  I don't know, but I'll answer all emails and discuss idea

GO GO GO!

Nechomacus

[Lizzie]

I've never been in the Rinth and only have what I'm reading on the GDB and in the docs as a reference. But maybe a "fresh" and "ignorant" perception might be helpful so here goes:

1) In some junctions, add a single cluster, or 2 clusters, of NPC community, similar to the Warrens in Tuluk. Non-aggros who would -become- aggro if one of their homeboys got attacked, who don't have their hoods up, and who might even offer a few torn and tattered doodads for sale at dirt-cheap prices.

2) There used to be open-communal apartments called "flophouses" back in the 1950's. Toss a few in the rinth. Provide a place for people to drop stuff they don't want to carry around, and take if they need it. Things that wouldn't sell for much (or anything) if someone bothered trying to steal them, but that might be useful. Like torches, charred and chipped bone knive-blades missing their hilts, broken bottles (used as really bad-quality weapons), torn and stained clothing, "ruined" armor, strappable pouches with holes in them and really low-capacities (as in, 1 or 2 small things OR 20 sids max). Any kind of mostly unsellable junk that very poor people -might- consider useful for their own personal needs. And anyone dumb enough to drop anything of value in the box would obviously deserve to not find it the next day. But have some vendors (as in the group mentioned in my first point) provide such things, so for RP purposes characters can actually -be- those dirt-poor people who have something to spend their newbie sids on without worrying about getting instakilled. And this point, point #2, would provide these people a place to hang out, that has nothing for sale, where they can do the old "leave a penny take a penny" thing.

L. Stanson

[Wykydtronn]

I, some where along the line had the goal to read the entire thread... put people got really long winded and I'm simply to lazy(drunk) to read it all.  I have a love for the Rinth having actually made my first  character there.

I do agree it feels like almost the stage of a movie.  It gives the appearance of a third world post-apocalyptic slum with out actually having the depth of one.  And I've always been slightly annoyed that most everything in the Rinth is super super super super secret with out having the need to be so covert.

Considering the amount of buildings that are describe being there, I can almost count on one hand the amount of those buildings you can actually enter and explore.

If this place can house, feed, and hold an entire population of people, then there has to be at lest some place for people to sleep, eat, and generally live.  That doesn't require you to know a password, climb a ladder, and slide into a small hole into the wall so you can be alone for 15 minutes.  Personally I'm in favor of expanding on the amount of indoor rooms that exist, that aren't abandon buildings or hiding spots, but instead places where people regularly visit and live.  It just seems illogical that an entire population can exist on just a tavern and a handful of hiding spots.

If this has all been said before... well just ignore me.  I just think some simple expansion on the number of indoor places would do the rinth good.

[ThirdEye]

Are any of the ideas mentioned going into place, or being considered?

[My 2 sids]

What about a "school" set up in the Rinith?   We have other "schools" in other starting locations... places were player and pc can learn the ropes without being dirrectly involved in politics or by trial and error.
It could be structured in a way to fit in with the location, but from an OOC perspective it would give players new to Rinith characters a starting place.

[Hymwen]

What do you mean by school? The only other school I can think of is the Atrium, which is run by wealthy merchants and owned by a noble house, and the entry fee is quite steep. I don't really like the idea of an actual school in the 'rinth, if you want to learn the shady stuff you could ask some people but I can't see actual tutoring and classes in an organized manner taking place.

[spawnloser]

I dunno...I think there's already 'schools' in the 'Rinth...they're called the clans that already exist there, a big one on the west side being the Guild.  On the east...well, you kinda have to be born into those, but that's why many suggest joining a tribe when playing a city elf 'Rinther.

[My 2 sids]

My view is that the 'rinith will do better if we bring in more people.  But, having hundreads of spam-killers and 1-hour character deaths won't help.

'School' might be a more OOC term to describe what I'm suggesting.  

Currently we have the Atrium and Byn.  They are clans in their own right, but also serve the OOC perpose of bringing together very new characters/ players with characters/ players who are interested in ICly teaching.  So, we start a small clan like this in the 'rinith.

Say a gang/ group of people who  are willing to role-play and teach how to survive in the 'rinith.  They wouldn't have to get into the details of each guild.  Just enough so new characters don't have to spam or die a thousand deaths to learn the basic's of 'rinith life.

[bloodfromstone]

My view is that the 'rinith will do better if we bring in more people.

Or stamp out some of the tribals that are stealing all our good players.  :twisted:

Seriously, though, one of the things that the 'rinth needs most is a consistant playerbase. I'm not sure we can support it at the moment, but I'm glad that it is there as an option regardless.

[Eternal]

Or play well the tribals that would make the Labyrinth a more lively operation?

The Haruch-Kemad are a tribe of city elves that live in the Labyrinth of Allanak. Secretive, business-oriented, subtle and proud, these elves are commonly thought to survive in their harsh environment through shady means. They are best known for their dealings through the Allanaki black market, and for their ability to acquire goods from outside Allanak's walls.

[Alamos]

Matron Verwolin's Orphanage may have the structure already in place to base such a learning environment around.

[joyofdiscord]

The only thing the rinth needs to educate new rinthers in the way of the rinth is a playerbase.  When there are a few regular players running around, the school of hard knocks and the lessons of the streets are very effective.  The rinth has a very high bang for its buck in terms of a lot of action, excitement and intrigue once even a very few people are playing regularly there and running around doing things.  

My first rinther, back in my days as a struggling newbie, was what really got me into the game for real.  The rinth caters to a different kind of player.  It's not supposed to be easy, but I don't think things are too inaccessible now.  I was readily included in a lot of awesome play with my first obviously newbie rinther.  In fact, I'd say I found it a lot more inviting than the average tavern, where newbies can often go ignored or get a few pats on the head from established players before they turn back to their dirty dealings.  In the rinth, you're often a part of those dirty dealings from day one, whether you like it or not.  While playing my own rinthers, I've tried to do my best to recreate this experience for other players too, especially new ones.

[Barzalene]

joyofdiscord said exactly what I've been wanting to say far more articulately than I could have managed. I don't want to see the rinth made easier, because I think in so doing we make it more the same. I like that some places in Arm, are harder. I like that the Rinth feels so different. Just like Red Storm feels different. I'm afraid that making it easier, more newbie friendly, perforce makes it more homogenized and watered down.

[ThirdEye]

Definently don't make it easier. Harder, if anything.

I find it is very easy to make a lot of money there once you get the drift of things.

[Angela Christine]

The orphanage is ok.  Who knows what they are really doing with those orphans?  It isn't like a good RL orphanage that cares for the children and tries to get them adopted into happy families.  It could be a recruiting strategy for some organizations:  for the price of feeding the kids and a couple adult supervisors you gain influence and co-operation over a succession of impressionable young rinthlings, which makes it easy to pick out the best of the lot to work for your gang.




As for how to improve the labyrinth?  Fire.  Lots and lots of Fire.   :wink:

[Rhyden]

As for how to improve the labyrinth?  Fire.  Lots and lots of Fire.   :wink:

Tha rinth! Tha rinth! Tha rinth is on fire!

[Tisiphone]

Improve the 'rinth by coding in the diseases there.

That'll really give 'em something to bitch about, so maybe they'll stop caring about apartments.

[FightClub]

As for how to improve the labyrinth?  Fire.  Lots and lots of Fire.   :wink:

Tha rinth! Tha rinth! Tha rinth is on fire!

Agreed, burn it down, and make a recreational park.

[Agent_137]

Improve the 'rinth by coding in the diseases there.

That'll really give 'em something to bitch about, so maybe they'll stop caring about apartments.

There's already at least one disease. Probably not exactly what you have in mind, but it's a start.

[DEATH]

although i agree that people lioving in the 'rinth are by and large squatting. its not like they sleep somwhere new every night. even in real life a squatter/group of squatters will stay somwhere till they get kicked out by an owner (which there isnt in the 'rinth) or muscled out by a larger/better armed group.

these groups of squatters work very similar to a street gang. they are a civilian force trying to p[rotect what is theres. they have only a few posessions, and there family need somwhere to stay. so they band together. claiming a building, an alley, a dead end street. and protecting it.

the people who live there know who should be there, and who shouldnt. and they dont steal from each other, or soon enough there co operation will break down and they will all have to fend for themselves, somthing that is much harder than working together.

now because they dont steal from each other, and they know that the "black headed, green eyed man" from a rival gang/ protectorate/whatever was hanging about. so they think he took there stuff.

which = a revenge attack/ revenge theft. soon you have full on rivaries between IG player run clans, and have an entire political system running.

it also consentrates the stealing activities on outsiders, because realy, why bother stealing from somone in a hopeless possition like yourself, might as well take a risk and gain bigger rewards. and if you fail in your burglary attemps or mugging you have somwhere you can run too.

i belive the onous needs to be more on players to start these gangs and get imm support later, not on imms to set them up to begin with

[Moofassa]

1. Fill it with sand.
2. Remove the left leg of every character currently living in the rinth.
3. Everyone who enters the rinth, gets the curse of "Find mental".


That would make it alot better.



Seriously, the rinth is awesome as it is. I'd say more players, but that's a pretty common problem.