The Labyrinth: how to improve it?

[spawnloser]

I believe apartments would add a dynamic to the rinth which would be positive to play in that area of the world. The rinth deserves attention of some sort, and I think that rather than the CONSTANT nay saying of interesting, creative ideas, spawnloser should go hide forever in a hole and starve to death and rot.

Constant naysayer?  Pshaw.

Okay, seriously, the Rinth is one gigantic, dirty, dangerous slum.  Noone owns anything.  Everyone is a squatter.  Go fucking squat.  There's no renting apartment style.  You want something, you claim it.  You fall asleep and someone wanders in and kills you because you didn't have a gang to back you up?  That's how it is.  You want security, you join up with an organization that can provide that...or make your own gang and put a whole lotta work into it.

You want a place that you can go behind a locked door to get some rest after being beaten to shit?  I'd prefer backrooms in 'Rinth bars over apartments.

[jstorrie]

People live in the Rinth. It may be a slum, but it's not an anarchic, propertyless society. The existence of shops and taverns in that quarter is proof enough of that. The Rinth does not solely exist so that a sizable portion of the Allanaki population can take turns mugging each other.

[alger]

Well first of all I'm going to say that yeah I'm a newb.  I'm only on my 3rd character but nevertheless he's lived quite sometime in the 'rinth.

I don't actually get the whole apartments deal.  

Talking -

See I don't think apartments will stop someone from knowing your plans.  You're as vunerable inside your apartments, maybe even more so if you're comparing it to talking in some deserted alley.

Resting -

There are a lot of hidding spots in the 'rinth.  I can literally go down have a smoke and grab something to bite while I'm resting in there.  I think I can still count on one hand the number of times someone has actually passed by while I was resting even (I think twice and more because I got lazy and just sat down where I felt like it).  

Also I don't understand why it's such a concern in the sense that it's made to look as if people get stabbed in the 'rinth really often.  My whole stay in the 'rinth the only times I've ever been actually attacked (Being aggression was started by the opposing party and went though into combat) was by some immortal controlled npc (bastards are trying to kill me!) and a pc who mistook me for someone else.  I mean it does happen but I seriously find more pointless fighting southside than I do northside.

Another, if you ask me to put apartments and the rinth together what I think of is "deathtrap".  Everybody in the 'rinth will start using that one liner "We know where you live."

---

I'm all for fleshing out the 'rinth but while apartments would be interesting inside the 'rinth I don't think they're going to be used inaccordance to any of the points here.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Did I take a jab at Tuluk lovers?  Sure, why not.  What are they gonna do?  Hug me to death?

I love this man.

However, I agree that there should be apartments.  It has nothing to do with whether or not 'rinth PCs need them or not.  If they can find hidden places to sleep, hide their stuff, and hang out, then that's great, but people live in the 'rinth that aren't player characters, and when these people want something, they pay for it.

If a 'rinth character wants food, he buys it from the shopkeeper.  He doesn't kill the shopkeeper and take the food.

Similarly, if a 'rinth character wants to live somewhere, he gets permission from whoever is in control of the area.  While finding an abandoned area and clearing out any squatters is possible, it's by no means necessary.

The 'rinth is full of buildings.  In fact, the 'rinth is pretty much nothing but buildings.  I think it's more than concievable that there are people living in these buildings.

If living in these buildings means giving 50 sid a 'month for a room that has a hidden entrance who anyone can enter by, and is guarded by people that will mug anybody who looks like they have something valuable even if these people are current tenants, then so be it.  The 'rinth needs its flavor after all.

[Ghost]

There aren't a "few places" in the rinth where you can go - there are a friggin ton (metric). You are basically saying that you are aware of every single hiding spot in the entire rinth, with 100% certainty, and could track down any other player who was trying to hide from you in a matter of minutes. How much sense does that make? Do you really feel so confident in your rinth knowledge having only played characters who spent a large portion of thier time southside?

Not really.

There are some places where you can go and hide, or rest.  You are very much sure no one will find you there.  But they are not man.. There are not TONS of such places.  There are places that everybody knows.  There are semi-secret places some people know.  And there are secret places that very few people know or use.  

About the original poster's idea, the thing about some lockable places or houses is that, it should have very little security, or it should be very very secret, or it should be somewhere very damn hard to go.

Hard to go places exist.  Some people know about them already.  They are hard to go, no one wants to go there, so you are pretty safe there.

Secret places exist.  The thing is, they are not safe.  They won't be safe.  You are safe so long no one else knows about it.  If someone learns about it, it is no different than an abondoned building.  Now the idea to implement more places like this will have the same problem.  You will not know about them, so what difference will it make to you?  If you know about it, there is no telling someone else does not, so you are still, in a way, as safe as you are in an abondoned building.

Places with less security:  A door with a lock, a room rentable or a house which you stumbled to find an entrance.  The thing is, if it is very safe someone else will already be dwelling in it, either the Guild (if it is in the westside) or a certain elven tribe (if it is in the eastside).  And there is no way you can take the place from them.  If it is not safe, we are back to where we started:  That it is no different than an abondoned house.  It is even less safe, because since it is lockable, anyone who knows how to get in will visit it more frequently.  A lock does not make it decent enough to talk business.  Because, sadly, even in the safety of your rented houses, you are not alone.  People can get in there very easily.  The fact that you don't realize it does not mean no one is there.
Now that was for southside, where people spend big amounts to rent a place.  Places where you can talk about security.  Take it to the rinth, and I am expecting to see little to no security.  Which will be no different than the southside at all.
The rentable house idea in the rinth does not sound very realistic to me.  Because people do not have enough coins to rent a house to stay in.  A powerful organisation, such as the Guild can start to rent apartments with decent locks.  But I doubt they will.  Because if they are buying good locks, you are paying good rent.  If you pay good enough to rent a house like that, people are going to think you have something of value and your house will be lifted pretty soon.  You will realize it is not safe and you will stop renting.  The Guild will soon stop making a profit and it will be called off. The Guild can put a guard at the door, which will increase the payment, which will call even more thieves.  And in the lawless part of the city, your house will be lifted again sooner or later.

I still think the best way to put it right could be renting a backroom in the Folley for cheap (not  too much like it is in the Gaj or Traders).  You can talk your business, and it will be safe enough.  Living on the other hand, you are already living the way you are supposed to.  there already are abondoned houses there.  And that is where people actually are living virtually.  He is not supposed to have anything to put in a house, all valuables he has is probably in his pockets and his pack.

[jmordetsky]

If rentable apartments get put in the rinth I'll seriously stop playing.

Um? What?

No. God No.

More rooms, perhaps. An ability to board up, or bar a door, perhaps.

Rent, no. Rent is for the commoners quarter.

[Beux]

I think thats a bit narrow minded. Just because they're poor, doesn't mean that cranky old guy who owns the run down building at the end of the block won't rent out a few rooms to keep himself in bread and water.

[Ghost]

But that old man's house will be as safe as any other house.  And the rinth has a lot of avaliable empty houses.  You don't need to rent a house.  That is why there are abondoned buildings, representing the empty places where you can live.

[Doppelganger]

Well, if ERS puts it this way...
Gritting my teeth, I have to agree that apartments have place in the Rinth.

However, I picture it as a common room anyone can enter if they pay with a guard/toll collector posted at the doorway, not as something lockable, intimate and personal.

You may pay a couple of coins to achieve relative safety and comfort, but you shouldn't be safe from casual backstab anyways. Seriously, having safe conversation in the Rinth is a privilege that must be earned. If you have earned it and still don't have a place to go then major fortification effort is in order.

Big no for locks anyways, they are far too expensive to appear in the Rinth open. It makes more sence to hire defiler to protect your door, because this way you may be sure that noone will try to steal your defiler and sell it for some cash.

[spawnloser]

How do people in the slums get security?  They pay 'security fees' to the local gang.  They don't rent.  They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.

[EvilRoeSlade]

How do people in the slums get security?  They pay 'security fees' to the local gang.  They don't rent.  They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.

Then create a few gang member NPCs guarding a building that you're allowed to live in after you've paid your security fees.  What's the difference?

[jmordetsky]

I think thats a bit narrow minded. Just because they're poor, doesn't mean that cranky old guy who owns the run down building at the end of the block won't rent out a few rooms to keep himself in bread and water.

It's plausible, but

1) that guy would need to be one of the big players or paying the big players to stay in business or he'd be dead as soon as anyone got wind of him collecting good rent coin.

2) No one in the rinth has any coins to pay rent. Yea, yea...I know all the rinth PCs are rich, but seriously they're *supposed* to be poor.

3) If word got out that anyone who *did* had the coin to rent this dude's hovel was staying there, they'd be dragged out into the street and stabbed to death by all the poor.

I think LOD is on point to some extent. The rinth could use a bit more life, but not rentables. I'd like to see things like spice dealer merchants lingering not far from southside but backed up by gang colors.

Maybe more coded gang territories that you could join and get some level of protection.

The  concept of owning property in a gang infested area doesn't make sense. The rinth deziens are either part of a gang that "occupies" territory and if you are part of that gang you are safe, or they're skittering for scraps and hiding from the gangs.

I mean, maybe the gangs would rent you a hovel on their territory. But that's really "paying for protection".

What might be cool is if you could go to PC or NPC merchants and pay for very expensive a mark of some kind that entitiled  you to free passage though a portion of rinth territory. But it would only be applicable to specific gang npcs.

not sure. To be fair, I like the rinth the way it is.


[editted to add]

I look at the rinth the same way I look at tribes in the wild. In your tribal village you are safe, outside you are fuct. Join a tribe, or work to create your own.

[Ghost]

The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you.  They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.

If you pay a few NPC guards to stand in the entrance of the rented house, I think it will be reflected in the code.  It will be like the rentable houses in the southside.  Looks safe at first glance, but not safe enough to stop the thieves and assassins.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you.  They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.

They aren't guarding YOU against other gangs.  They're guarding their territory against other gangs.  You're just the guy who lives on their territory, paying them to leave you alone.

[Sokotra]

How do people in the slums get security?  They pay 'security fees' to the local gang.  They don't rent.  They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.

Then create a few gang member NPCs guarding a building that you're allowed to live in after you've paid your security fees.  What's the difference?

Hmm, sounds like 'apartments'.  Seems fairly logical to me.

I'm not extremely fond of apartments, but I still like the idea of a mass hallway of filthy, cockroach infested rooms in one of the bars or something.  Not like any 'rinther couldn't sneak in and get at you anyway, so why not?  

I still think a few halfway hidden shacks and alleys would be nice.  I've played this game for years and plenty of 'rinth characters and I still have trouble finding safe places - which is fine, but again... more places that you can find without having to know the exact "secretstonebrickpassage" word to 'open' so you can hide would seem reasonable.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't see how small dives are impossible when there are shops set up. It's the same thing, except you replace the counter and the goods with a bunch of tiny rooms, seperated by dividers or hanging clothes. You might have a 8x8 square foot area to yourself. I don't think anyone wants to incorporate the same types of apartments as Allanak has.

[spawnloser]

The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you.  They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.

No, that's wrong.  The concept of 'protection' from a gang standpoint is that you pay them to leave you alone while you are in their territory, yes, but they protect their territory from all that would try to muscle in...which means that they are protecting you from anyone else that would try what they do in their territory, which is to extort coin from anyone living there.

[Ghost]

But how can they stop an individual thief from lifting your house?  A thief won't flash himself, and if he is not a part of the gang, what will stop him from stealing?

[jmordetsky]

But how can they stop an individual thief from lifting your house?  A thief won't flash himself, and if he is not a part of the gang, what will stop him from stealing?

Thieves stealing in gang territory that weren't part of the gang would need to pay a tribute to the gang. If they didn't and got caught, they'd be in trouble.

[Ghost]

I am sold.  NPC guarding the entrance is something that can be done it seems.  But I don't think you will be even half safe you want to be in there.

[WarriorPoet]

A Stinking, Enclosed Warren of Tents and Lean-to's [NSEW Leave]
The reeking effluvia of the Labyrinth is increased tenfold in this sprawling, enclosed area, the rotten smell of humanoid waste, decaying garbage and sour body odor mingling into an almost overpowering foulness. It is obvious that the buildings that previously occupied the area have been dismantled and haphazardly cleared, the rubble used to effectively wall off the numerous roads that lead into it. The ground has been thoroughly recovered, however, the remains of building's foundations and small bits of leftover walls used to form sides of crude lean-to's and shacks. A multitude of wretched humanoids mill outside the hovels, cooking over dung fires, haggling over the price of stale rats, or laying about in aimless misery.
A communal cess-pit is here, overflowing into the paths between tents.
A few cudgel-armed men walk about, keeping order within the warren.
An overweight, toothless man sits here, collecting tolls.

>list

Available for rent:
1} Not available
2} A hovel with only three walls
3} A hollow under a slab of stone
4} A filth-smeared tent
5} Etc.

Sucking greedily at an erdlu-bone before tossing it away and addressing you, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
          "Toll is a hunnert coins a month for a hole. You don't like that, you can fuck yourself bloody."

Continuing, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
           "Your things gets stolen, keep it to yourself because I don't give a Highlord's fuck. I sell the space."

Thrusting out a grime-spattered hand, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
            "You give me any shit, now or after you rent from me, I'll have my boys bash your skull in and give you to the pots. Now, give up the coins or get out of my sight."

I wouldn't like rentable apartments, but a massive 'Hooverville' woulf fit beautifully.

-WP also LOVES LoD's idea about making the rinth more... alive.

[flurry]

On topic, I don't think it's a bad idea, as long as the apartments are suitably shabby, cheap, and poorly secured.

I'd also like to point out its not a quarter of the city.  Unless all the other quarters get renamed, it remains a small portion of the city.  If you feel like telling the Templarate they now live in a fifth instead of a quarter, more power too you.  In fact, you may feel free to use that as an idea for your character.

Of course, the Templarate will astutely point out that there are more than four quarters already.  Templars, Nobles, Merchants, Commoners, Elementalists.

At that point, they will immediately have you drawn and quartered.

[Forty Winks]

The original point of having apartments in the rinth, from what I've read so far, was to 1) have a safe resting place (which will be impossible to ever be considered 100% safe in the rinth other than inside your own gang-owned buildings...even then, never always guarenteed) and 2) discuss "secret" plots, which I fail to see why a rooftop or deadend isn't good enough for, cause if these places aren't good enough for your rinthi to chat quietly in, then I'm calling it OOC paranoia.  :wink:

So, the point being: no purpose for apartments in the rinth. The abandoned warehouses and such already set around the rinth are as close to "apartments" as I'd like to see, and think are even possible in the environment. If you're dead poor and starving, what's the need of privacy?

Now, as for improving the rinth, if people helped sending in writeups for NPC's to the southlands admin like Halaster suggested, might be a step to reaching that goal.  

In any case, I'm going to go set up a character in backup for when Sim-Rinth ever gets implemented.  :lol:

[Forty Winks]

On the flip side, while I still don't think codedly setting up apartments is worth it, I do acknowledge that there probably is space for a few virtual apartment buildings as people have mentioned. These are probably run by a tenant, likely either apart of or paying off the gang controlling the area, but instead of rooms, each level would just be one large 'room' with everyone mushed together for shelter on small 5 ft X 2 ft X 2 ft bunks or more like cubicles; a free-for-all for all those with the few sid to get off the alleys, under a roof, and on something softer than stone. I can probably imagine the "best" level of the building reserved for whores and business of that nature. In any case, no privacy at all most definitely IMO for discussing any risky topics, and to hide safely from some assassin? Count yourself sold out to the rinthi nearest the exit the moment you step in.

[edited to add] Oh, and these 'spaces' would likely only be rented out for a week, max, considering the high death rate of people from disease, infections, 'accidents', and starvation; not the month-long period like apartments in the southside or in Tuluk.

Makes me want to play a rinthi again...  :lol:

[creeper386]

To my understanding people live their whole lives in the 'rinth, I highly doubt that it's so horrible there that there is just this massively high death rate.

There should be a whole different society in the 'rinth. The few times I've been there though, it seems like there isn't any society, and there isn't even anything there codedly to represent it and I just didn't see any of the interaction.

How do people live their whole lives there if anyplace they go they are likely to get murdered because nothing is safe?