Subdue - Code Change Discussion.

[LoD]

I've moved this post over from the necro'd thread on subdue because  I wanted to create a discussion around these proposed changes rather than a debate on whether someone with a baseball bat or katana would let you subdue them.  Would these changes, taken as a whole or in part, help with some of the problems that we have with the overpowered nature of the subdue as they present stand?

Subdue - Possible Code Changes/Additions

Subdue should be be a holding position, not a striking position.

Subdue, for non-giants, should require constant attention and both hands to maintain their hold on the intended target. Most targets that are apprehended will be wielding sharp and dangerous weapons in both hands, and the idea that someone of relative size would be able to disable both of your arms while they wound a hand back for a strike is a bit far-fetched.

These are the changes I would like to see made to the subdue skill:

:arrow: Attacking (bare fisted or otherwise) would release the subdued target prior to the strike.

Code Select Expand

>subdue elf
You subdue the willowy, black haired elf, despite his attempts to struggle.

>hit elf
You release the willowy, black haired elf, who quickly moves away.

You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.
You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.

This would eliminate the subdue-hit tactic in 1v1 encounters. Flee;subdue would no longer be an effective method of attack because any aggressive movement toward the subdued victim would release them prior the strike, and would then use normal offense/defense rolls for success. This would also lessen the encounters were a 2-hour mul subdue-kils a 50-day warrior.

:arrow: Third parties would gain a bonus to the first strike (ONE blow) on a subdued target.  Engaging in any combat with a subdued target would release them after the first strike and regular combat would ensue.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

The stout, broad-shouldered man lifts his blade sharply as you struggle.

The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes you extremely hard on the head.
The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way.

While the bonus to strike would be removed from the subduer, third parties would be allowed a bonus to the first strike made against a subdued opponent. This still lends some very real danger to being subdued within a group of people, which should be played as a dangerous situation with consequences for non-compliance. (e.g. soldiers, raiders)

Additional commands associated with subdue.

The following command would be allowed while having a victim subdued to help control and maneuver:

Choke

When applying a choke hold, the subduer would be unable to move his/her opponent between rooms. If the victim tries to escape the hold of the subduer, they will lose an additional amount of stamina and stun to the normal drain associated with struggling.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

Jerking a thick forearm back, the half-giant soldier says, in sirhish:
   "Hey!  You stop squirmin'!"

The half-giant soldier stops, pulling a forearm tight against your throat.

>flee
You struggle in vain agains the half-giant soldier.
You choke and gag as the half-giant soldier closes his grasp.

The half-giant soldier releases his forearm against your throat.
The half-giant soldier walks east, dragging you behind him.

The following commands would be allowed when performed upon a victim that is currently subdued:

Strike

This command would allow a specific and singular strike to be made against the subdued victim for a small amount of health. Possible scenarios would be softening up a victim, interrogating a prisoner, teaching a lesson to someone who didn't pay for protection, giving someone some to remember you by, etc...

Code Select Expand

The lean, sinewy man is here, being held by the half-giant soldier.

Pulling on a taut, black leaher glove, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "I'm actually pleased you've decided to be so tight-lipped..."

His mouth curling into a sadistic grin, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "...I do enjoy my work.

>strike sinewy
You takes a step forward, backhanding the lean, sinewy man across the jaw.

Strip

The Strip command allows a third party to strip clothing, weapons, or other articles of clothing from a subdued target. The result is not 100% effective, and provides the target with a better chance to escape.

> Stripping held objects is harder than worn objects.
> Victim has an increased chance of escaping the hold when being stripped.

Code Select Expand

The burly, one-eyed dwarf is here, held by the half-giant soldier.

Approaching with a raised glove, the grizzled sergeant says, in sirihish:
   "Leggo that sword, runt!"

>strip sword dwarf
You try to strip an obsidian longsword out of the burly, one-eyed dwarf's hand.

<delay>

Got it!

Those are a few of my thoughts that would make the subdue skill more interesting, more useful in group situations, less overpowered in 1v1 situations, and better received all around as a RP tool rather than a PK and crim-code tool.

-LoD

[Blur]

EDIT:Miss post sorry

[jhunter]

I think half-giants should be able to subdue smaller humanoids with one hand and still be able to strike before releasing them. I also think that subdue is underpowered in the fact that anyone with a high flee skill can escape you too easily. It should be pretty much impossible for your average humanoid to escape the grip of a half-giant once they have you.

I would agree to all the proposed changes providing for the above. I think that if the intention is to make subdue more realistic, there are several weaknesses about it that are not realistic as well and should be corrected at the same time as making any other changes to it. Those changes would work but would severely nerf it for unrealistic reasons if the above ideas were not provided for in that change. The biggest problem as a whole being that someone who shouldn't be strong enough to break your grip in a million years can escape you simply because their flee skill is high enough. It should be strength vs. strength to break free.

[mansa]

:arrow: Attacking (bare fisted or otherwise) would release the subdued target prior to the strike.

Code Select Expand

>subdue elf
You subdue the willowy, black haired elf, despite his attempts to struggle.

>hit elf
You release the willowy, black haired elf, who quickly moves away.

You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.
You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.

I agree to that change.

:arrow: Third parties would gain a bonus on their first strike against a subdued target.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

The stout, broad-shouldered man lifts his blade sharply as you struggle.

The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes you extremely hard on the head.
The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way.

Are you saying that the code should only give a modifier on the FIRST STRIKE ONLY, or for EVERY STRIKE while the person is subued?

Additional commands associated with subdue.

The following command would be allowed while having a victim subdued to help control and maneuver:

Choke

When applying a choke hold, the subduer would be unable to move his/her opponent between rooms. If the victim tries to escape the hold of the subduer, they will lose an additional amount of stamina and stun to the normal drain associated with struggling.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

Jerking a thick forearm back, the half-giant soldier says, in sirhish:
   "Hey!  You stop squirmin'!"

The half-giant soldier stops, pulling a forearm tight against your throat.

>flee
You struggle in vain agains the half-giant soldier.
You choke and gag as the half-giant soldier closes his grasp.

The half-giant soldier releases his forearm against your throat.
The half-giant soldier walks east, dragging you behind him.

Or you could call it squeeze, too.  I would suggest that when you perform the choke/squeeze command, the SUBDUER takes a hit of 5 mv, and the SUBDUED takes a hit of 10 mv, and 5 stun.

The following commands would be allowed when performed upon a victim that is currently subdued:

Strike

This command would allow a specific and singular strike to be made against the subdued victim for a small amount of health. Possible scenarios would be softening up a victim, interrogating a prisoner, teaching a lesson to someone who didn't pay for protection, giving someone some to remember you by, etc...

Code Select Expand

The lean, sinewy man is here, being held by the half-giant soldier.

Pulling on a taut, black leaher glove, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "I'm actually pleased you've decided to be so tight-lipped..."

His mouth curling into a sadistic grin, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "...I do enjoy my work.

>strike sinewy
You takes a step forward, backhanding the lean, sinewy man across the jaw.

I like.  It gives something that can cause more terror to Templars, rather than just death.

Strip

The Strip command allows a third party to strip clothing, weapons, or other articles of clothing from a subdued target. The result is not 100% effective, and provides the target with a better chance to escape.

> Stripping held objects is harder than worn objects.
> Victim has an increased chance of escaping the hold when being stripped.

Code Select Expand

The burly, one-eyed dwarf is here, held by the half-giant soldier.

Approaching with a raised glove, the grizzled sergeant says, in sirihish:
   "Leggo that sword, runt!"

>strip sword dwarf
You try to strip an obsidian longsword out of the burly, one-eyed dwarf's hand.

<delay>

Got it!

I like that too.


Perhaps we can consider a 'force feed / force drink' situation here, too.  In addition to..

[LoD]

Are you saying that the code should only give a modifier on the FIRST STRIKE ONLY, or for EVERY STRIKE while the person is subued?

The FIRST STRIKE ONLY.  Once the first attack happens, the target is released from the subdued position and all normal combat modifiers resume.

Or you could call it squeeze, too.  I would suggest that when you perform the choke/squeeze command, the SUBDUER takes a hit of 5 mv, and the SUBDUED takes a hit of 10 mv, and 5 stun.

Well, it's not intended to be a command the subduer can use over and over, it's a stance the subduer would take which would place harsher penalties upon the subdued if they tried to flee.

They would give up the ability to move anywhere by enforcing the choke hold, and any struggling the subdued engaged in would subsequently cause their stun/stamina to drop pretty quick.  I wouldn't want players able to just "squeeze" or "choke" someone to death, but to give the subdued a reason not to keep spamming "flee".

To phrase it a different way: I'm OK with letting the person subdued knock themselves out by spamming flee, but I'm not OK with giving the subduer the ability to do it by spamming choke.

-LoD

[Ghost]

I like the additional maneuvers to the subdue command.

Additionally:

Or you could call it squeeze, too. I would suggest that when you perform the choke/squeeze command, the SUBDUER takes a hit of 5 mv, and the SUBDUED takes a hit of 10 mv, and 5 stun.

I also like this.  But I would make a little change on the numbers.  The subduer gets 5 stamina penalty, the subdued gets 10 stamina penalty and 10-15 stun penalty.

All other ideas however, are quite good and I would love to see them implemented.

[Twilight]

While I like the commands, I disagree with them being used while the person has the other subdued.  They should be modifiers to the subdue command to determine what kind of hole the subduer chooses to put the other person to.  They should only become useful with higher levels of skill, and should make it nominally harder for the subduer to keep their grip.

When you put someone into a hold is when you determine what kind of hold it is, not later.

[LoD]

While I like the commands, I disagree with them being used while the person has the other subdued.  They should be modifiers to the subdue command to determine what kind of hole the subduer chooses to put the other person to.  They should only become useful with higher levels of skill, and should make it nominally harder for the subduer to keep their grip.

When you put someone into a hold is when you determine what kind of hold it is, not later.

I'm not sure I follow which commands you mean.  There are three commands mentioned above: Choke, Strike, and Strip.

Choke is a command for the subduer (the person who is doing the subduing) that halts their movement and applies a choke hold to add some consequences to spamming flee above the normal stamina drain.  It's a passive stance that the subduer can take if their target is struggling overmuch.

Strike and Strip are commands that would be performed by somone who is not involved in the subdue.  For example, if a half-giant subdued an elf, he wouldn't be able to strike or strip his target.  That would have to be done by a third party in the same room (e.g templar).

I agree that the proposed Choke/Squeeze command would be something that could be offered at higher levels of skill.  The other two are mostly for RP or playability reasons; Allowing templars, thugs, raiders a way to inflict some pain on a subdued target (1-3 health) without having to resort to coded combat.

Perhaps you could give an example of what you mean.  I'm just not sure what you mean by determining the "type of hold" they're going to do.

-LoD

[jmordetsky]

>>>Subdue should be be a holding position, not a striking position.

Yes. Totally.

>>>Third parties would gain a bonus on their first strike against a subdued target.

Yes, but every strike no? Until you are no longer subdued? That might be harder to code.

>>>Choke

Would be nice.

>>>>Strike

Yes. Yes. Yes. Though, available in some ways via the whip objects.

Strike would be nice if it took into account a weapon like a dagger and allowed for an emote to be attached.


>>>Strip

Absolutely.


Big ups to LOD for taking the time to put this together.


[edit]
We're also saying that unless your size and strength SERIOUSLY over matches the target that weapons in hand make subdue more dangerous for the subdue, yea??

[LoD]

>>>Third parties would gain a bonus on their first strike against a subdued target.

Yes, but every strike no? Until you are no longer subdued? That might be harder to code.

Only on the FIRST STRIKE.  One blow.  The first swing.  There would be no sustained bonus after the first strike because the subdue would break and all regular combat modifiers would apply.  What this does is still make it possible for someone to do some legitimite damage to a subdued target in a group situation, but no longer 1v1.

Example:

The half-giant soldier has arrived from the west.
The tall, lanky sergeant has arrived from the west.

The half-giant subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

The tall, lanky sergeant spreads a cruel smile, sliding his blade loose.

The tall, lanky sergeant slashes you on your head, wounding you.
<target is no longer subdued>
The tall, lanky sergeant slashes at you, but you dodge.

And, yes, the following rules would apply to subue:

> Hands must be empty when the subdue attempt is made.
> Any weapons/objects currently held will be dropped if your PC attempts a subdue.
> Drawing a weapon or holding an object will release the subdued target.
> Attacking your target will release them prior to the strike. (Non-Half Giants)
> Attacking a subdued target held by someone other than yourself will result in ONE blow with extreme bonuses to hit, and will then release the subdued target.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

For those that practice martial arts that include grappling, part of the point is to get them in a grapple, and then hurt them in ways you couldn't have while not grappling.

I think the changes you're proposing are very well thought out, but I also think they would nerf HG's to some degree and would rather not see them go in.  Just my take.

Editted to add: I do like the Choke and Strip options, though.

[jmordetsky]

For those that practice martial arts that include grappling, part of the point is to get them in a grapple, and then hurt them in ways you couldn't have while not grappling.

I think the changes you're proposing are very well thought out, but I also think they would nerf HG's to some degree and would rather not see them go in.  Just my take.

Editted to add: I do like the Choke and Strip options, though.

I love the changes, but I agree with Spawn on this point. If these things were put into place, there would need to be exceptions for half-giants.

An HG should be able to grab you by one arm, lift you up and punch you in the chest. So the first block code isn't 100% applicable to them.

So, while I like all of these things, the HG's should get significant bonus to help them play through it.

[jmordetsky]

Only on the FIRST STRIKE.  One blow.  The first swing.  

Why though? If I put you in full nelson while my buddy tees off on your rib cage with a hammer, why do I need to let go?


Edit: Especially if I'm an HG?

[LoD]

Only on the FIRST STRIKE.  One blow.  The first swing.  

Why though? If I put you in full nelson while my buddy tees off on your rib cage with a hammer, why do I need to let go?


Edit: Especially if I'm an HG?

Alright, two things here:

Half-Giants

First - I mentioned in my psts that HG's are exempt from all these changes.  I agree that their size and sheer strength are enough to warrant them being allowed to use the subdue skill as it stands.  That is, grabbing someone with one hand, and behind able to still strike at them with an open bare-handed blow.

So the HG arguements are all moot, because they will be an exception to this proposed rule, which is meant to govern all the humanoid races of relative size.

Subdued Strikes

There are two main reasons why I believe any combat past the initial swing should revert to normal modifiers and free the subdued target; playability and a lack of damage type regulation.

Playability

It might be realistic that your friend could hold someone in a full nelson while you smack them in the stomach with a small hammer.  The code does not, however, have any kind of capacity for situations that might also be realistic:

> You swing and hit both the target AND your friend.
> You swing and the subdued target suddenly lurches forward, striking your friend.
> The subdued target kicks out at you while you swing.

There is a trade of disadvantages and advantages here, and if a subdued target had no form of retaliation or negotiation from a subdued position while they were being attacked - it would swiftly become lopsided and overpowered.  The ONE bonus strike is to simulate your friend holding the subdued target still while you got one good shot on him, then suddenly releasing him at the last moment to avoid any damage to himself.

Once released, normal combat resumes.  I think that's the fairest method to all parties involved (both the subduer, subdued, and extras) to ensure the best trade off for advantages and disadvantages inherent in the system.

Lack of Damage Type Regulation

The code will not be able to decipher between a hammer swung into the gut with enough force to hurt, but not enough to cause your friend any harm, and the slashing arc of a longsword, the pierce of a dagger, the jab of a long spear, the cleave of a polearm, etc...

If you want to soften the person up, then use the "Strike" command rather than beating on someone in a subdued position.  The bonus strike will still put you at a serious advantage as far as the fight goes, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect more out of the system.  Your friend holding the guy isn't going to want to have his fingers, feet, ribs, or head smashed as you try to hit a thrashing target with a variety of weapons.

-LoD

[UnderSeven]

i agree with LoD on so many occasions.  Besides, a one on one situation it is really hard to subdue another person who is struggling all their might.  Just watch wrestling, not the fake wrestling, but REAL wrestling, these are people who you can consider knowing their stuff, high subdue skills and most matches do not end with a pin, most matches run out of time!  Wrestling is hard, subdueing should be hard, subdueing an armed person should be really hard.  The code here needs work and I like some of LoD's suggestions.

[jmordetsky]

Only on the FIRST STRIKE.  One blow.  The first swing.  

Why though? If I put you in full nelson while my buddy tees off on your rib cage with a hammer, why do I need to let go?


Edit: Especially if I'm an HG?

Alright, two things here:

Half-Giants

First - I mentioned in my psts that HG's are exempt from all these changes.  I agree that their size and sheer strength are enough to warrant them being allowed to use the subdue skill as it stands.  That is, grabbing someone with one hand, and behind able to still strike at them with an open bare-handed blow.

So the HG arguements are all moot, because they will be an exception to this proposed rule, which is meant to govern all the humanoid races of relative size.

Subdued Strikes

There are two main reasons why I believe any combat past the initial swing should revert to normal modifiers and free the subdued target; playability and a lack of damage type regulation.

Playability

It might be realistic that your friend could hold someone in a full nelson while you smack them in the stomach with a small hammer.  The code does not, however, have any kind of capacity for situations that might also be realistic:

> You swing and hit both the target AND your friend.
> You swing and the subdued target suddenly lurches forward, striking your friend.
> The subdued target kicks out at you while you swing.

There is a trade of disadvantages and advantages here, and if a subdued target had no form of retaliation or negotiation from a subdued position while they were being attacked - it would swiftly become lopsided and overpowered.  The ONE bonus strike is to simulate your friend holding the subdued target still while you got one good shot on him, then suddenly releasing him at the last moment to avoid any damage to himself.

Once released, normal combat resumes.  I think that's the fairest method to all parties involved (both the subduer, subdued, and extras) to ensure the best trade off for advantages and disadvantages inherent in the system.

Lack of Damage Type Regulation

The code will not be able to decipher between a hammer swung into the gut with enough force to hurt, but not enough to cause your friend any harm, and the slashing arc of a longsword, the pierce of a dagger, the jab of a long spear, the cleave of a polearm, etc...

If you want to soften the person up, then use the "Strike" command rather than beating on someone in a subdued position.  The bonus strike will still put you at a serious advantage as far as the fight goes, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect more out of the system.  Your friend holding the guy isn't going to want to have his fingers, feet, ribs, or head smashed as you try to hit a thrashing target with a variety of weapons.

-LoD

All very reasonable. I am sold. Where are the keys?

[daedroug]

I like it, if left the way that LoD put it in the very beginning.

I especially like the choke hold, Oviously it makes sense that it would have much worse consequences if the subduer had all of their concentration on the victim instead of also worrying about dragging them along.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I like the release before hit, and the one strike from 3rd party before release.

The strike and choke option, not sure that I like these options, particularly when you are holding an armed opponent. The idea of choking someone or hitting someone while you're unarmed and they're holding a knife in each hand doesn't really work for me. I think your hands would be occupied with keeping their weapons out of your body. I'm not even convinced that subdue makes any sense against an opponent with weapons, so choking them and punching them and keeping them helpless while they're armed seems a little far fetched.

I know this will inspire someone to post something about having some kind of possible "disarm" command with subdue, but considering how easy it is to subdue someone in Armageddon.. I really, really don't like the idea of the subduer getting even more of an offensive advantage than they already have. If subduing was a more complex process than it currently is, i.e. not just an instant grab with no startup lag or echoed warning lag, and only a single skill check, I might be more in favor of seeing offensive commands added to subdue, but right now subdue seems already goofy as is. I know it's been done to death and beaten over and over again, but the raw core of how subdue works needs to be changed, I believe, if we're going to be able to do anything interesting with that command. There is no other command in the game that is instantly immobilizing with no lag whatsoever on startup. There's backstab lag, there's sap lag, there's casting lag, there's throwing/shooting lag, but subdue has no lag. It's just.. BAM you're CAUGHT! And you're GONNA DIE if you don't instantly break out with flee, because this guy's buddy is armed with a bludgeon weapon! HA! You're hit in the body!

Your vision goes black! And it only took LITERALLY one second!

You're dead! But it took a few more seconds, because both guys are recovering from subdue and kill lag.

[jhunter]

I don't like the idea of taking the one thing we have as players to keep people from instantly walking away, which is too easy to do, and adding a delay to grabbing them.

[bardbard#4]

It's not the only thing we have as players that prevent escape.

Locked doors.
Poisons.
Bash.
Numbers.
Unmentionables.
Roleplay.

*shrug*

[Quirk]

I've a number of disagreements with both some of this and the way things are, and I'm going to try and organise them here.

Firstly, subdue seems to be seen as two different things at the same time.

One, we have the moving subdue, where it stands in for militia being able to bind someone's hands and lead them away, or overpower them with superior numbers, or (perhaps, for a solitary militia guy who's forgotten his handcuff-equivalents) put them in some kind of armlock or hold after they've surrendered to ensure that they won't break and run.

Two, we have the wrestler's subdue, where you throw someone to the ground, pin them down and can then apply submissions such as chokeholds and joint locks. There are a number of things to be noted about this position:
- If you can be choked when fighting on the ground, you can be choked into unconsciousness (very quickly) and then to death. If there's ever a "choke" command, it should be potentially fatal.
- A good grappler can easily reverse an advantageous position held by an inferior opponent; in game terms, if you attempt to subdue a better grappler, you're likely to end up subdued yourself.
- Weapons trump unarmed combat in all ranges, and this includes close in, and goes doubly for people who know how to use those weapons. Also, unless you're a much better grappler, you probably won't be able to stop your opponent from drawing their weapon while you're both on the ground.

I think the first of the two subdues is more along the lines of what subdue was originally meant to be. Subdue's a law enforcement tool, not an accurate representation of grappling. And, unless subdue is being employed by a group who can just keep throwing people in against the target until he's overcome by weight of numbers, it requires the target to come quietly. In this scenario, yes, it should be possible to butcher, strike or strip the subdued person - but then they knew that this was a possibility when they toggled nosave subdue/arrest.

So, if you're going to use it as a law enforcement tool, then it should be hard to employ without consent from the other party or superior numbers - or half-giants.

Half-giants are of course something of a special case. I think if they attempt to subdue an unarmed, smaller target, they should get to do what they like with them, but subduing an armed target should be about as sensible as sticking their hand in a blender. They can definitely overpower small humans while both are standing up - though whether they can stop them drawing a shortsword and plunging it into the giant's wrist may be another matter.

[daedroug]

Since i don't think people have quiet graped the original idea behind the choke idea i'll reiterate it:
The idea is -NOT- supposed to be a offensive maneuver. It is simply meant so that if some one is struggling too much (spam flee) then they can sacrifice their ability to move to inflict harsher penalties for trying to escape. In other words the only thing choke would do is make you lose more stamina or stun then normal when you try to flee and fail. It's not so that you can jump some one and spam choke till they fall unconcious.
Thus Quirk, i think it was LoD's attempt to mix the two different ideas people have for Subdue.

As for armed people being subdued I believe LoD mentioned putting in a system where subdueing an armed person might easily cause bodily harm to the subduer and in any case you can subdue armed people with no worries as it is so even if everything else was put into place with out such an aforementioned system, then at the very least it wouldn't be making it any worse.

[LoD]

Half-giants are of course something of a special case. I think if they attempt to subdue an unarmed, smaller target, they should get to do what they like with them, but subduing an armed target should be about as sensible as sticking their hand in a blender. They can definitely overpower small humans while both are standing up - though whether they can stop them drawing a shortsword and plunging it into the giant's wrist may be another matter.

In a perfect world, I would like to see the armed status of both the subduer and the target come into play with the subdue attempt.

If someone attempts to subdue an armed target bare-handed, then I agree there should be some kind of "free attack" against them as they make their lunge.  However, if both parties are armed - then I consider it perfectly legitimite for the subdue to occur as a result of the subduer making a 100% attempt to simply "lock up" the opponent's weapons until they close range.  Remember, subdue cannot happen while in combat -- so the subdue often happens when the target is unaware.

Characters employing the use of a shield should be even better at meeting their target's weapons, then dropping the shield and weapon in order to grapple their opponent.  Many weapons are not nearly as effective at close range, especially if the opponent is wearing any kind of armor.

As for subdue not having a delay, neither does the east, west, north, south, or leave command.  The two seem to balance each other out, in my opinion, and if you removed the 1v1 threat of the subdue;kill, then you really encourage subdue to be used for more realistic settings; dangerous situations in group play, and more stalling/grappling to provide more RP opportunites in solo encounters.

-LoD

[Quirk]

If someone attempts to subdue an armed target bare-handed, then I agree there should be some kind of "free attack" against them as they make their lunge.  However, if both parties are armed - then I consider it perfectly legitimite for the subdue to occur as a result of the subduer making a 100% attempt to simply "lock up" the opponent's weapons until they close range.  Remember, subdue cannot happen while in combat -- so the subdue often happens when the target is unaware.

Characters employing the use of a shield should be even better at meeting their target's weapons, then dropping the shield and weapon in order to grapple their opponent.  Many weapons are not nearly as effective at close range, especially if the opponent is wearing any kind of armor.

The problem is that subdue does not seem to be designed to be used for this situation. You're again referring to it as though it were a grappler's subdue rather than a stand-in for binding someone's hands. For it to be a grappler's subdue, the following things would need to happen:
1) One or both parties would end up on the ground.
1a) There'd be no possibility of moving someone from room to room in this subdued state.
2) The attacked party, if sufficiently larger, stronger or most importantly more experienced in grappling should be able to reverse the subdue attempt and subdue the attacker instead; or at their option throw back the attacker and re-engage with weapons once again.
3) The subdue struggle would not necessarily prevent either party from drawing extra, smaller weapons and ventilating their opponent.
4) Combat against the eventually subdued person by a third party would be made more awkward, since they'd essentially be on the bottom of a pin; it's not at all the same as smashing into someone with their hands bound and a guard on either side.

Subdue's current incarnation only makes sense as a militia restraint tool, and as such it should only be possible to put it on as a result of the other party surrendering, or (at some risk) significantly greater raw physical force such as several people, a half-giant, etc.

As for subdue not having a delay, neither does the east, west, north, south, or leave command.  The two seem to balance each other out, in my opinion, and if you removed the 1v1 threat of the subdue;kill, then you really encourage subdue to be used for more realistic settings; dangerous situations in group play, and more stalling/grappling to provide more RP opportunites in solo encounters.

-LoD

Subdue is not in its current incarnation a realistic combat tool, and having no delay only encourages people to use it in an unrealistic manner. I'd be tempted to suggest that movement delays should perhaps be increased, especially in the case of outdoor rooms; it's ridiculous that a human on foot can spamwalk away from many wild animals. There are other sensible solutions to this problem - but using "subdue" isn't one of them.

The idea is -NOT- supposed to be a offensive maneuver. It is simply meant so that if some one is struggling too much (spam flee) then they can sacrifice their ability to move to inflict harsher penalties for trying to escape. In other words the only thing choke would do is make you lose more stamina or stun then normal when you try to flee and fail. It's not so that you can jump some one and spam choke till they fall unconcious.

Look - if you can choke someone, you can choke them unconscious. If you can't choke someone, you can't really impose any penalties on their stun/endurance via a half-sunk chokehold. If you're going to propose a new command for Arm, it should have some sort of real world analogue. After all, we're going to have to RP that this makes some kind of sense if it goes in, this isn't D&D.

[Ghost]

1) One or both parties would end up on the ground.

Not necessarily.  Someone can be pinned and held immobile without dropping to the ground.

2) The attacked party, if sufficiently larger, stronger or most importantly more experienced in grappling should be able to reverse the subdue attempt and subdue the attacker instead; or at their option throw back the attacker and re-engage with weapons once again.

Which is reflected in the subdue attempt.  If someone attempts to subdue you and fails, you can attempt a subdue on your own or just engage in melee while he is in the delay.
If you mean someone should be able to reverse subdue after getting subdued successfully, it is also supported in the game.  You flee, break free and then you can make an attempt on your own or engage in melee.

3) The subdue struggle would not necessarily prevent either party from drawing extra, smaller weapons and ventilating their opponent.

That I agree.  But I don't think it is too crucial.  I would love to see it implemented though.

4) Combat against the eventually subdued person by a third party would be made more awkward, since they'd essentially be on the bottom of a pin; it's not at all the same as smashing into someone with their hands bound and a guard on either side.

You can put someone in a lock without dropping to the ground.  Even in the ground, if they are both immobile, you know your target is there and not moving.  The first attack, therefore would be more likely to hit home.

[Quirk]

Not necessarily.  Someone can be pinned and held immobile without dropping to the ground.

Unless one party is a half-giant, or a drunk in the grip of a stronger man - no, not really. Go along to your local judo or wrestling club and try it.

Which is reflected in the subdue attempt.  If someone attempts to subdue you and fails, you can attempt a subdue on your own or just engage in melee while he is in the delay.
If you mean someone should be able to reverse subdue after getting subdued successfully, it is also supported in the game.  You flee, break free and then you can make an attempt on your own or engage in melee.

Well, more to the point, it's almost impossible to subdue someone of superior skill unless you have mighty other advantages, and sometimes not even then. Initiating the subdue doesn't mean squat, it won't last more than seconds against someone better than you are.

You can put someone in a lock without dropping to the ground.

I addressed this in a previous post. Putting a standing lock on a non-compliant opponent is hard, even when punching isn't allowed. It is possible, but even if you're much more skilled than they are, they have to make a mistake that leaves them open to it or it's not happening.

A restraining lock put on after they've surrendered and come along quietly or you've swarmed them with people, yes. One on one? It almost never happens. Check out how many MMA matches or judo matches have ended with a standing submission - very, very few.

Also, if you're putting someone in a lock, you should be able to break their arm. It's the whole point of an armlock.

Even in the ground, if they are both immobile, you know your target is there and not moving.  The first attack, therefore would be more likely to hit home.

Most of your target is covered by your ally, however, and the likelihood is that both your ally and the person underneath are moving. This is the reality of grappling - you need to be constantly altering your position as they attempt to escape.

[williamson]

Here is an old idea of mine:


Skill: Choke

This skilled is used by warriors who have subdued their victims. A successful choke will place the subdued victim into a choking headlock. As the choke is maintained, the victim will eventually lose conciousness if the attacker has the stamina to maintain the hold. Once placed in the choke, the victim will lose stun points and the attacker maintaining the choke will lose stamina. If the victim loses all of her/his stun points, she/he falls unconcious. If the attacker loses all of her/his stamina, the attacker is forced to release the victim.

Example:

subdue templar
>You subdue the balding, obese templar.

choke templar
>You position yourself behind the balding, obese templar and place him in a rear naked choke.

Failing the choke:
>You try to position yourself behind the balding, obese templar, but he escapes your grip.

After success each tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as he gasps for air.

Tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as the color of his face begins to turn a shade of blue.

Tick:

You release the balding, obese templar as he collapses to the ground, unconcious.

Once in the choke hold, victims could type flee and try to break free just like a subdue.

-Williamson

[Marauder Moe]

Fact: It takes about a minute and a half for someone in a choke hold to pass out from asphyxiation.

Fact: With a more precise application of pressure, ie flexing your bicep, constriction of the jugulars will cause someone to pass out in about nine seconds.

These are the kinds of fun things you learn when one of your co-workers is a Major in the U.S. Marine Corps.

[LoD]

The problem is that subdue does not seem to be designed to be used for this situation. You're again referring to it as though it were a grappler's subdue rather than a stand-in for binding someone's hands.

My goal is not to make the movement more realistic, but to make the use of the skill more playable and used in situations that have more to do with holding, and less to do with striking.

I agree with your points about grappling with someone.  It's hard enough to keep them pinned to the ground than to worry about picking them up and moving them anywhere.  However, I believe that there is functionality here made convenient by the subsdue skill for which we don't need realism.  Realism is not always the best solution.

Realism in many of the game's situations would lead to instant and inescapable death.  We suspend our disbelief to allow us a greater range of potential scenes and interactions when dealing with the physics and physiological results of combat.  

Backstab would be nearly fatal everytime if the damage mirrored the echo given upon a successful strike.

Taking an arrow, or a thrown knife, to the neck would pretty much write somebody's final chapter.

As I mentioned before, subdue in its current form within the game seems to be used most often in conjunction with NPC law enforcement and PK attempts.  My suggestions are aimed to broaden the applications of the ability while removing some of the PK elements to discourage the more unrealistic parts of how the skill was being used.  So while I appreciate the notion that the subdue skill doesn't "quite make sense", my opinion is "that's fine with me" as long as it works for the purposes intended in the game.

[jmordetsky]

The addition of a threaten command might take away some need for subdue to be all things to all people.

Soldiers should use threaten rather then subdue anyhow.


Maybe it would be best if subdue *was* a combat skill like bash and received a penalty if it was during combat but a bonus if it was used to initiate combat.

*shrug* Just a thought.