Subdue - Code Change Discussion.

[Quirk]

Not necessarily.  Someone can be pinned and held immobile without dropping to the ground.

Unless one party is a half-giant, or a drunk in the grip of a stronger man - no, not really. Go along to your local judo or wrestling club and try it.

Which is reflected in the subdue attempt.  If someone attempts to subdue you and fails, you can attempt a subdue on your own or just engage in melee while he is in the delay.
If you mean someone should be able to reverse subdue after getting subdued successfully, it is also supported in the game.  You flee, break free and then you can make an attempt on your own or engage in melee.

Well, more to the point, it's almost impossible to subdue someone of superior skill unless you have mighty other advantages, and sometimes not even then. Initiating the subdue doesn't mean squat, it won't last more than seconds against someone better than you are.

You can put someone in a lock without dropping to the ground.

I addressed this in a previous post. Putting a standing lock on a non-compliant opponent is hard, even when punching isn't allowed. It is possible, but even if you're much more skilled than they are, they have to make a mistake that leaves them open to it or it's not happening.

A restraining lock put on after they've surrendered and come along quietly or you've swarmed them with people, yes. One on one? It almost never happens. Check out how many MMA matches or judo matches have ended with a standing submission - very, very few.

Also, if you're putting someone in a lock, you should be able to break their arm. It's the whole point of an armlock.

Even in the ground, if they are both immobile, you know your target is there and not moving.  The first attack, therefore would be more likely to hit home.

Most of your target is covered by your ally, however, and the likelihood is that both your ally and the person underneath are moving. This is the reality of grappling - you need to be constantly altering your position as they attempt to escape.

[williamson]

Here is an old idea of mine:


Skill: Choke

This skilled is used by warriors who have subdued their victims. A successful choke will place the subdued victim into a choking headlock. As the choke is maintained, the victim will eventually lose conciousness if the attacker has the stamina to maintain the hold. Once placed in the choke, the victim will lose stun points and the attacker maintaining the choke will lose stamina. If the victim loses all of her/his stun points, she/he falls unconcious. If the attacker loses all of her/his stamina, the attacker is forced to release the victim.

Example:

subdue templar
>You subdue the balding, obese templar.

choke templar
>You position yourself behind the balding, obese templar and place him in a rear naked choke.

Failing the choke:
>You try to position yourself behind the balding, obese templar, but he escapes your grip.

After success each tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as he gasps for air.

Tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as the color of his face begins to turn a shade of blue.

Tick:

You release the balding, obese templar as he collapses to the ground, unconcious.

Once in the choke hold, victims could type flee and try to break free just like a subdue.

-Williamson

[Marauder Moe]

Fact: It takes about a minute and a half for someone in a choke hold to pass out from asphyxiation.

Fact: With a more precise application of pressure, ie flexing your bicep, constriction of the jugulars will cause someone to pass out in about nine seconds.

These are the kinds of fun things you learn when one of your co-workers is a Major in the U.S. Marine Corps.

[LoD]

The problem is that subdue does not seem to be designed to be used for this situation. You're again referring to it as though it were a grappler's subdue rather than a stand-in for binding someone's hands.

My goal is not to make the movement more realistic, but to make the use of the skill more playable and used in situations that have more to do with holding, and less to do with striking.

I agree with your points about grappling with someone.  It's hard enough to keep them pinned to the ground than to worry about picking them up and moving them anywhere.  However, I believe that there is functionality here made convenient by the subsdue skill for which we don't need realism.  Realism is not always the best solution.

Realism in many of the game's situations would lead to instant and inescapable death.  We suspend our disbelief to allow us a greater range of potential scenes and interactions when dealing with the physics and physiological results of combat.  

Backstab would be nearly fatal everytime if the damage mirrored the echo given upon a successful strike.

Taking an arrow, or a thrown knife, to the neck would pretty much write somebody's final chapter.

As I mentioned before, subdue in its current form within the game seems to be used most often in conjunction with NPC law enforcement and PK attempts.  My suggestions are aimed to broaden the applications of the ability while removing some of the PK elements to discourage the more unrealistic parts of how the skill was being used.  So while I appreciate the notion that the subdue skill doesn't "quite make sense", my opinion is "that's fine with me" as long as it works for the purposes intended in the game.

[jmordetsky]

The addition of a threaten command might take away some need for subdue to be all things to all people.

Soldiers should use threaten rather then subdue anyhow.


Maybe it would be best if subdue *was* a combat skill like bash and received a penalty if it was during combat but a bonus if it was used to initiate combat.

*shrug* Just a thought.