New Page for Review - Tuluki Societal Castes: V2

[marko]

The problem with Merchant Houses is that each has their own unique organization.  This leaves two possibilities - first, to indicate each house and reveal their internal structure to everyone or to use generic labels and hope that players figure it out.

Head of House is the Head of the House.  Each House has a Head or two (since they are families sometimes it is a mother and a father of the House) and that is what that rank refers to.  The Head of House is one or two people - no more.  Not even the Northern Branch leader but the actual Head of the House.

Senior Merchants would be things like - most senior members.  So consuls, stewards, envoys, Head of the Northern Branch, or whatever makes up the most senior grouping of the Merchant House.  We should keep in mind (and I think this probably needs to be made clearer) that within each "rank" are an infinite number of levels.  

Let's say a House has three "senior level" rankings internally.  Then all three of them fit in the same social rank.  When talking to one another, they defer to the senior as per their internal ranking.  When others are dealing with them they would realize that the most senior is the most senior.

The big difficulty that I've noticed with merchant houses are their guards, hunters,  and officers.  Each House treats their guards, hunters, and officers differently.  One House doesn't consider them to be particularly powerful within their organization while another might consider an Officer to have significant power.

I can only think that there may be a case to be made to break out the three Great Houses individually but only if their immortals are comfortable with doing so.

[Cuusardo]

I don't see why you can't compare the T'zai Byn to a merchant House.  They're still running a business, but instead of selling goods they sell services.

[Sokotra]

I don't see why you can't compare the T'zai Byn to a merchant House.  They're still running a business, but instead of selling goods they sell services.

In Allanak, yes.  In Tuluk, not quite so sure as of yet unless things have changed there.  It seemed obvious that the Byn are much more influential in 'Nak than they are in Tuluk.  Then, like someone mentioned, there's also the question of if the Officer/Merchant is born/raised in Tuluk or transplanted from somewhere else... very important.

[Red Sunrise]

Head of House is the Head of the House.  Each House has a Head or two (since they are families sometimes it is a mother and a father of the House) and that is what that rank refers to.  The Head of House is one or two people - no more.  Not even the Northern Branch leader but the actual Head of the House.

Senior Merchants would be things like - most senior members.  So consuls, stewards, envoys, Head of the Northern Branch, or whatever makes up the most senior grouping of the Merchant House.  We should keep in mind (and I think this probably needs to be made clearer) that within each "rank" are an infinite number of levels.

If this is true - and it's a valid interpretation giving the rankings that were enumerated on the table - then the Senior Merchant rank needs to be given more clout. The Head of the Northern Branch of any House should be on a power level at least equal to that of a Master Bard.

I personally favor the interpretation that "House Head" can be expanded to include more than the people at just the very very top. The people at almost the top but not quite are on that level too.

[Naiona]

This is updated with what will probably be the final version now.  I've taken a lot of the points discussed here and added notes in the text portion of the file.  I have still refrained from mentioning any organization other then the templarate by name, as this chart is not meant to be that rigid.

[Dresan]

Mmmm,looks good, very sexy...

Thats alot of power to the merchant house heads but it does make alot of sense and it does fit since the merchant houses were the ones to help rebuild Tuluk along with other IC details.

I think though that the document should make very clear that it isn't rigid and that there are alot of social modifers to take into consideration before assessing someones real social rank.

For fun though maybe we should make a list of common (maybe not so common) positive and negative social modifiers. For example being a half-breed, definately negative, maybe even give an example of how negative it could be.

Otherwise its a damn good chat and am glad to see it. Real good work, Naiona, thanks for taking the time to do it.  

[LoD]

I think though that the document should make very clear that it isn't rigid and that there are alot of social modifers to take into consideration before assessing someones real social rank.

I, too, would like to see some mention that this ranking table is a general guideline rather than a hard and fast rule pertaining to social rank in Tuluk.  As Dresan mentions, there may be many modifiers that shift people up and down the list despite the ranking their title deserves.

My fear would be that someone referesnces this chart as their primary IC justification for treating someone a certain way, rather than using it as a general reference. (e.g. Why aren't I being served the pickled gurth stew first, I'm higher on the chart!)

For fun though maybe we should make a list of common (maybe not so common) positive and negative social modifiers.

Possible Positive Social Modifiers[/u]

Northern Born (primarily for Merchant positions)
Pure Blooded Human (primarily for Merchant positions)
Associated with a heroic or patriotic act.(e.g. Fought in Red Desert War)
Public Recognition by Higher Rank (e.g. High Precentor compliments you publicly)
Public Recognition of Achievement (e.g. Won a festival tournament, bard competition)
Patronage from a Higher Rank
High Levels of Wealth (Particularly displays of wealth that have a positive impact on others)
Alliances and/or Informal Ties to Higher Ranls
Environment is Controlled (e.g. In House Lyksae War Camp)
City is at War (e.g. Superior powers/standing may be given to Legion and/or participating martial organizations)

-LoD

[marko]

Off the top of my head.

More modifiers:

Positive

Patronage (probably the biggest single influence so expanding it a little)
- How powerful the patron is
- How many partisans a patron has
- How successful the partisans are
Known favor of a templar
Known favor of a noble
Public accomplishments, eg:
- a bard winning a competition
- a hunter destroying an abomination and this being known
- an artisan completing a major work that's on public display
Known and apparently respected by many people

Negative

Publically talking about magickers
Publically talking about nobles in a negative manner
Publically talking about templars in a negative manner
Clumsily attempting to manipulate others and being found out
Clumsy acts of etiquette, some examples:
- Acting above your ranking
- Being rude in the wrong situation
- Blundering in social settings
Clumsy attempts at insinuation
Being imprisoned

[jcarter]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

[jstorrie]

Positive:
- created a great work (bard or craftsman)
- comissioned a great work (anyone with money, esp nobles/templars)
- known for an artful exploit (assassin or thief)
- recognized as a patriot
- associated with a succesful bardic troupe

Negative:
- failed to complete a license (assassin or thief)
- known for poor work (bard or craftsman)
- led a failed project (esp nobility)
- led a failed expedition or military attack (templarate and legion)
- known to not make appropriate concessions to nobility/templarate (merchants)
- frequently or has recently visited Allanak
- associates with southerners / associated with someone who was discovered as a magicker
- partisan or employee has commited a breach of custom or grossly illegal act (aide turned out to be magicker, pet bard insulted a templar, etc.)
- known to have employed an unlicensed assassin/thief

[Reiloth]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

Well, if you appreciate the arts and culture, they are. If you're just an independant hunter, the most important thing in your life is obsidian. So you don't need to give a shit, basically, but...It kinda is what it is.

[jstorrie]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

The chart does clarify, however, that a patroned Seeker of Poet's Circle (the commonly-encountered rank of many an in-game artist) is only about as ranking as a House Sergeant or an average Kadian merchant. Ranking bards of the Poet's Circle are relatively accomplished and experienced PCs, and accordingly uncommon. Master bard PCs are downright rare.

That being said, I know the feeling. It felt like Tuluk was downright flooded with Bard PCs only recently, although things seem to have settled down lately. If you feel that a bard PC is playing at bigger than their station, and your PC has the station and motivation to call them on their bullshit, why not go ahead and do it?

[mansa]

BUMP.


This TULUK is an ENFORCED CASTE SYSTEM, all players of Tuluk should be reminded of this Document.

Be sure to read this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005



This is one of the failing points of Tuluk - Along with the Partisan / Patron relationship.   It's the hardest part, and very few people play along with it, as they are supposed to.

[Coat of Arms]

I have a question and I'm too lazy to see if it has been answered.

Chosen Nobles are addressed by the populace as "Chosen Lord" and "Chosen Lady", followed by their given name and their house. Ie, "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" is a formal introduction, and "Chosen Lady Eudora" would be an informal usage.

Does this mean that if I want to stay formal, I have to speak out the whole "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" verse every time I want to address them?

Code Select Expand

You say, in sirihish, inclining ^me head humbly:
   "Excuse me, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari, may I request an audience with you?"

The haughty, silk-clad snob says something.

You say, in sirihish:
   "Thank you, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari. Oh, and how is Chosen Lord Amos of House Dasari doing?"...sort of thing?

[Coat of Arms]

Oh, hey, this is an old thread.

[mansa]

I have a question and I'm too lazy to see if it has been answered.

Chosen Nobles are addressed by the populace as "Chosen Lord" and "Chosen Lady", followed by their given name and their house. Ie, "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" is a formal introduction, and "Chosen Lady Eudora" would be an informal usage.

Does this mean that if I want to stay formal, I have to speak out the whole "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" verse every time I want to address them?

Code Select Expand

You say, in sirihish, inclining ^me head humbly:
   "Excuse me, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari, may I request an audience with you?"

The haughty, silk-clad snob says something.

You say, in sirihish:
   "Thank you, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari. Oh, and how is Chosen Lord Amos of House Dasari doing?"...sort of thing?

I believe that's the difference between Informal and Formal.

[mansa]

Oh, hey, this is an old thread.

Yeah, it is.

The thing is that Tuluk was being ramped up to be awesome, and have their social constructs implemented into the game with documents...  Something that people could use.

And then Naiona left.  And that project got left behind after she was gone.


Tuluk is -hard- to play in, because nothing is documented well.  Your social status is affected by so many things, and none of it is in the docs.

[Adhira]

Actually Mansa, you'd be wrong.

Tlaloc and Ashyom implemented a new structure for Tuluk into the game which is now in operation.

[mansa]

Actually Mansa, you'd be wrong.

Tlaloc and Ashyom implemented a new structure for Tuluk into the game which is now in operation.

Okay,

The chart that Naiona wrote up - is that still in effect?

Are most things discussed in this thread correct?

If they aren't, we should know which ones aren't.

Cool.

[WWYD]

I agree with Mansa on the 'stuff is wrong with the docs' point, just not specifically the chart (which seems fine and dandy for me).

I.E, on the Tuluki Caste page, it says that Tuluki nobles aren't completely exempt from the law, and 'probably won't be hauled to jail' with the templerate doing discreet stuff. Further down, it says they are completely exempt from the law, and as long as they didn't attack a milita member/someone as important as them/a templar they'd be fine.

There's bits and pieces that are pretty much C/Ped from the Allanak documents, the titles (both noble/templar and literal titles) altered, but otherwise the exact same (like what I said above).

[Gimfalisette]

"Chosen Lady Fifi Dasari" or "Faithful Lady Martha Negean" is the full title to be used during introductions.

"Chosen Lady/Lord" or "Faithful Lady/Lord" is fine for commoners to use to address Chosen/Faithful on a regular basis, or between nobles and templars.

It is also fine to say "Chosen Lady Fifi" or "Faithful Lady Martha" from a commoner to a noble/templar or between nobles/templars.

Sometimes, commoners also use just "Chosen Fifi" or "Faithful Martha." This is more familiar, and also fine, as long as the particular noble/templar doesn't get upset about it. (IMO, those who get upset about it are straying too close to Nakki-style nobility.)

Nobles and templars can address each other by the above, or just by first name, depending on their familiarity with one another.

Templars address one another as "Brother" or "Sister" depending on the gender of the person being spoken to, or about. This can also be combined with first name: "Brother Brandon" or "Sister Sarah", for example.