New Page for Review - Tuluki Societal Castes: V2

[Naiona]

I took many of your suggestions, along with some suggestions and some corrections from senior staff and compiled them into a new document for your enjoyment:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

I'm starting a new thread since the old one is so long.  Please post commentary.

[jhunter]

I like it.

[Esquillax]

Thank you.

And thank you for including proper titles in this document.  The trend of leaving Lord and Lady out of titles is still continuing (albeit by very few), and hopefully this documentation will clear that error up.

[LoD]

The chart mentions that the Commoner caste covers the majority of Merchant House employees, bards, assassins, and thieves, however, there is no further mention in the chart of Merchant House employees that are not merchants.

Here are a few groups that don't seem to be listed:

Merchant House - Officer Positions

The only two Commoner ranks mentioned are "Entry Level Positions" and "Independant Commoner".  Master Thieves, Master Bards, Master Assassins, and the ranks of Agents within the Merchant Houses are all listed, but there's nothing that would tell someone what, if any, social difference was granted to a Hunter, Sergeant, Lieutennant, Captain, or other ranked emplyee of the Merchant Houses.

T'zai-Byn

It seems that all of these positions are represented on the chart only by "Entry Level Position" - which many of them are not.  Would every rank of the T'zai-Byn fall into the category of "Entry Level Position"?  I'd imagine a Lieutenant, Captain, or Commander might pull a little more weight with twenty to a hundred fighting men serving directly under them.

Northern/Southern Born

With both the Great Merchant Houses and the T'zai-Byn, there are going to be people that are not born of the caste system and do not bear the tattoos.  How are these people to be perceived?  Is a Senior Agent that transfers from Allanak to Tuluk going to wield generally the same political influence?  It would be doubtful.  I wonder what effect southern birth would have on the general perception of their social status.

This would likely fall into the "intangible" category rather than something marked on a chart because much of it depends on the situation; how long they've been in the north, how charismatic they are, how much they are needed by others, etc...  Just something to think about, I suppose.

-LoD

[Beux]

I don't really have an opinion on Merchant House officer positions but...

Byn -

I don't think anyone in the Byn holds any sort of social status. Maybe people -of- caste rank might treat them better than they would a common citizen, I don't think common citizens would treat them any different than their own. Of course they have their own ranking system within, but I don't think it's something outsiders would particularly adhere to or take notice of.

It's like...my next door neighbour might be the head boss of his own garbage disposal company, but that doesn't make him any better than me.

North/South - I think thats something that should be addressed individually, rather than an issue that needs to be set in stone within this document.

Just my two 'sids.

[Gimfalisette]

Under the text for "Templar," I am concerned about this text:

Templars are addressed as their established rank followed by their given name, or as "Faithful Lord" and "Faithful Lady" followed by their given name, rank, and House name. I.e., "High Templar Lady Nanola Dasari of the Lirathan Order" or "Lord Templar Aretae Lyksae of The Jihaen Order" would both be formal introductions, while "Faithful Lord Aretae" would be an informal usage. The Templarate as a whole are referred to as "His Faithful."

To my knowledge, Tuluki templars would never be addressed as Lord Templar or Lady Templar, and in fact I've seen PCs be verbally slapped for doing so as this is the Allanaki mode of address of templars. Of course, if I'm incorrect about that, then carry on.

Under the text for "Hlum Noble," there was a necessary change missed:

Hlum nobility are the winners of the Grey Hunt and are exceedingly rare. A Hlum noble may rise from any caste except Untouchable and the title reverts upon their death.

Under the text for "Artisan," I find this to continue to be confusing:

The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above with noble or templar partisanship, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support.

Because in the rank table, bards of lower than Bard rank are listed in the Artisan category, while the text above seems to indicate that they shouldn't be.

In addition to LoD's comments above, I find myself wondering where specific types of employees of the templarate or nobility would fit in. For example, is a Sergeant of a noble house going to have the same social status/rank as a Sergeant of the Legions? It's not really possible to determine that from the chart without a good bit more detail. I think experienced players will probably "know" this stuff, but the chart is really kinda designed for those who don't know much about Tuluki society to start with--so more detail would be helpful. Perhaps just some footnotes at the bottom of the page with specific examples of types of jobs that fit in those categories could be included.

OVERALL I want to say that this document is getting really good and I'm very glad it's being done. Thank you!

[Dresan]

Shunned :cry: ...ahh well can't win them all, still good name though.

I noticed you have Entry Level Employees for merchant houses. I'd like to see what rank if any a Salarr sergeant, Kuraci Outrider or Kadius 'lead' hunter or higher would put you in the eyes of society. I'm thinking depending on your ranking and influence inside the merchant house maybe the person gets a social rank of the same if not slightly higher then junior merchant for the titles mentioned above. We could however,compare rank and influence of an employee with that of junior/senior merchants in the house and decide that way.


Otherwise its a damn good chart, real good work.

[LoD]

I don't think anyone in the Byn holds any sort of social status. Maybe people -of- caste rank might treat them better than they would a common citizen, I don't think common citizens would treat them any different than their own. Of course they have their own ranking system within, but I don't think it's something outsiders would particularly adhere to or take notice of.

You don't think that the officers or leaders of an organization representing 25-75 soldiers just in Tuluk alone warrants any place on the social chart?  I would agree that general T'zai-Byn members (Runners, Troopers, Sergeants) probably wouldn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things, but this chart represents potential political power and the resources those people can wield.

I'd think that someone commanding 25-50 mercenaries would be someone an "Independant Commoner" wouldn't want to insult, and someone that others hold in higher esteem because of the tangible weight their position can carry.

The T'zai-Byn didn't strongarm their way into the city.  There were several political and social concessions taken for their presence to even be allowed within the walls, and I don't think dismissing the few people controlling this "rabble" would be prudent for a good many people.

To illustrate the point, a good "test" of this chart would be to consider if Rank 'X" threatened Rank "Y" - who would have the more to fear from political or physical repurcussions?

Whom do you think has the more to fear from these actions?

:arrow: Independant Commoner threatens a Senior Agent of House Salarr.
:arrow: Seeker threatens a Master Assassin.
:arrow: Bard threatens a Lieutenant of the Legion.
:arrow: Jihaen Templar threatens a Junior Agent of House Kurac.

Now what you're saying is that this would make sense:

:arrow: Independant Commoner threatens Lieutenant of the T'zai-Byn.
:arrow: Junior Merchant of Kadius threatens a Captain of the T'zai-Byn.
:arrow: Private of the Legion threatens the Commander of the T'zai-Byn.

These people are not your "backyard neighbor".  They are officers of an organization that wields global influence and presence and has a very real and tangible resource at their disposal - soldiers.  They want to make your life hard by having a couple hundred soldiers show up when your caravan rolls through the countryside?  Someone can make that happen.

That's why it's different.

-LoD

[Jherlen]

I really applaud the staff for doing this and putting up with all our nitpicking. Thanks.

That said I shall nitpick some more:

:arrow:

For the purposes of Tuluki Society, citizens may change caste over the course of a lifetime, though such happenings are rare.

This statement seems misleading to me. Should it possibly be that citizens may change societal caste (i.e. change from a Commoner to an Artisan?) Otherwise it seems to imply that in rare cases, movement across any part of the caste table is possible. This might give people the idea that commoners could become Chosen Nobles, or nobility could become Templars, or extreme screw-up templars could get demoted down to the Legion caste. I didn't think Tuluki society was -that- fluid.

:arrow: Someone mentioned the Surif Noble designation in the other thread. Is it possible that Chosen Nobles could be renamed as that in the table? This might be more clear, especially since the doc states that even Hlum Nobility are still referred to as "Chosen Lord/Lady".

:arrow: I still would really like to argue for the Senior Merchant rank being bumped up to the level of a Master Bard. As I posted in the other thread, Senior Merchant types are the people right below the House Heads of the merchant houses, usually - the table makes them seem lower in status than they should be, IMO. I'd like to hear the rationale behind their current placement even if they won't be moved.

:arrow: I agree that people above "Entry Level" and not "Junior Merchant" in merchant houses should be listed on the table. I would suggest that guard officers, senior hunters, and other "experienced" positions be ranked next to "Junior Merchant" for the purposes of this table. It's still a fairly broad grouping of jobs, and even though usually people of Captain rank in merchant houses would be ranked above Junior Merchants, I'd say in the average case people with merchant family blood would probably have more social standing.

:arrow: If the Byn were to go anywhere I would put them just one notch above Independent Commoners on the table. Politically, I don't think the Byn have ever amounted to very much. That same blank square is also where I would rank partisans of templars/nobles who don't fall into any of the other categories. (A partisan hunter of somebody important is probably a notch above truly independent commoners.) On the other hand, that might be getting into too much detail.

edited re: the Byn in response to LoD: I would still say even the highest ranked Byn people would still not be much more important than a Legion Corporal. Until the northern Byn gives itself a facelift I don't think they'll be getting much love in Tuluk.

[Dresan]

I would say an established Byn Sergeant has no more social rank then a established Independent. Byn in the north are really looked down upon,  I've seen on countless occations where independents are treated way better then byners.

[mansa]

Why is the master thief ranked under master assassin?

:(

[LoD]

edited re: the Byn in response to LoD: I would still say even the highest ranked Byn people would still not be much more important than a Legion Corporal. Until the northern Byn gives itself a facelift I don't think they'll be getting much love in Tuluk.

I think that sounds quite reasonable to me, right now they aren't listed as anything.  I was making the point that someone in the Byn can make 200 soldiers show up if they really pulled their weight.  That "someone" should be on the list somewhere.  I don't think they need to be all that high, but they should be represented.

I would say an established Byn Sergeant has no more social rank then a established Independent. Byn in the north are really looked down upon, I've seen on countless occations where independents are treated way better then byners.

I agree.  Sergeants, Troopers, Runners - they should all fall into the category of Independant Commoner and perhaps even considered lower if they aren't northern born.  However, Lieutenants, Captains, and the Commander(s) (the officers of the T'zai-Byn) pull a lot more weight with what they can make happen.

The city doesn't necessarily have to like the person to appreciate their place in society.  Most people probably wouldn't like the Master Assassin as a person, but they respect what they are, and what they do.  It would be a mistake for many to lump these officers with the lowest of the low, because political power is not just the sway of your family name, it is the position of one's disposible power.

Templars can order a citizen dead on the street, if they so choose.  Senior Agents have the wealth and position to hire assassins simply to protect their image against a loose tongue.  Corporals of the Legion have done enough "good deeds" for the Ivory that no one would investigate too deep if a few loudmouth unaffiliated people went missing.

These are all excercises of one's political power.  If you have the ability, then you have the power, regardless of what people think of you as a person.  My point is that anyone that can call upon a significant amount of martial power, not just manpower, is someone that carries political clout.  They can be an ally or an adversary, a pawn or a player, but they're on the map and certainly merit some place amidst this chart.

-LoD

[marko]

Officers internal to Merchant Houses tend to have very little clout within that organization and thus have even less outside that organization.

Since most officers tend to rank below a Junior Merchant then their social status, no matter how many people they may command, would be below that of the Junior Merchant.  It may be that the senior rankings of officers are equivalent to a Junior Merchant and thus would exist within that social banding.

The Byn:  This is more difficult since the Byn is a set of mercenaries often made up of what, for all intents and purposes, are hunters, foreigners, or  misfits.  I can see the top level officers, assuming they are Tuluki, gaining a social standing of that of "seeker, junior merchant, junior employee" at this time.  Later on, if the Byn manages to maintain itself and expand its operations - perhaps that might rise to "family merchant" level for the top sword of the Byn.

Social status is not about who can scare who - that works outside the City Walls but inside, it's a different system of establishing the pecking order.  A better way to look at it is this:  if there is a massive party - who gets served first and then after that line up who gets listened to the most?

You put everyone in Tuluk in a line with the top ranking people at the front of the line.  The higher castes always get served before the lower castes - in other words, a chosen family member would get served before the head of a merchant house.  But, after the food and drink are served the Head of the Merchant House would command more clout in a conversation.  Of course, it would behove the Head of the House to not upset the Chosen Family Member and the converse is true (no Chosen Family Member would be wise to insult the Head of one of the Great Merchant Houses).

As per Senior Merchants being equiv to Master Bards - I wouldn't agree.  Master Bards hold more social status and clout than a Senior Merchant.  There can be an argument made that Circle Leader would be equiv to a Chosen Family Member, and, realistically individual ones will be comparable to other individual chosen family members (but, as whole, with this chart as our guide most chosen family members outrank most Circle Leaders).

What I would add to the list, under commoner, would be three Byn ranks (especially since the Byn has become active once more).  Byn trooper and below would be with "independent commoner,"  Byn mid-level "officer" (NCOs - sergeant) would be "Apprentice, Entry Level Employee, Private" and finally Byn Officer would live at "seeker, junior merchant, junior employee."

We should constantly remember that within every "level" of social standing are an infinite set of positions where people will fall into.  Further, the levels aren't really hard boundaries but rather soft ones.  The top tier of the level beneath will infiltrate into the lower part of the band above.  The chart is giving us a base guide which will then be further modified by such "soft" factors as patronage, accomplishments, social network, ability, etc etc.

One final note:  I would still advise removing the reference "family merchant" and replace that with "ranked merchant."  Family members of the merchant families may not all be family merchants, and even when they are, they may be "in training."  Further, I have a concern that with the terminology of "family merchant" ... oh wait.  Family Merchant might just mean a merchant of one of the great houses.  Yup, confusing

[LoD]

Social status is not about who can scare who - that works outside the City Walls but inside, it's a different system of establishing the pecking order.  A better way to look at it is this:  if there is a massive party - who gets served first and then after that line up who gets listened to the most?

I'd disagree.  It's always about who can scare who - how they go about scaring them just changes.  This is not a system based on personal merit, it's a system based on the placement of and potential for martial, financial, and productive power.  Social status is often a reflection of what your group (i.e. organization, bloodline) is capable of doing.

The pecking order has everything to do with who you know, and if that person is stronger than the next.  Everyone is a onion; many complicated layers sometimes must be peeled away to discover whether or not it will make you cry.  Why would anyone adhere to a social role if there weren't consequences to breaking them?

The entire notion of a pecking order must be based, in part, by who holds the most power.  The power over food, over water, over protection, over your freedoms, over your thoughts, over your life itself.  That defines the ranking system at every rung on the ladder.

If not the promise of ruin, what stays the hand of those seeking to climb?

What stops the commoner from threatening the templar?  Death.  What stops the Bard from insulting a noble too closely or publicly with their song?  Death.  What stops a Senior Agent from refusing business to a high ranking noble?  The understanding that his dad will talk to your dad and there will be trouble because they have lots of money which can either serve as profit for you, or payment to others to make your life hell.

I'd be interested see an example of a social role that doesn't maintain its position, when push comes to shove, by flexing their muscle?  How would anything ever be decided if someone didn't hold the power?  The people with the power rule over the people without, all the way down to the lowliest slave.  They rule with the promise of death, ruin, and loss.

People seem to read the word "political" and believe it has nothing to do with the ability to make a physical threat.  Sometimes, but the threat is every bit as real when someone is taking away your food, your water, or your business, are they not?  They are still exercising their power over you by displays of strength in resources upon which you are dependant.

Yes, I think political power has everything to do with scaring people at its very core.  It evolves into a softer version of the game where you forget what actually happens if someone has to play all their cards, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

-LoD

[Jherlen]

Officers internal to Merchant Houses tend to have very little clout within that organization and thus have even less outside that organization. Since most officers tend to rank below a Junior Merchant then their social status, no matter how many people they may command, would be below that of the Junior Merchant.  It may be that the senior rankings of officers are equivalent to a Junior Merchant and thus would exist within that social banding.

I disagree, and I italiscized where I think you are wrong. A Lieutenant or Captain in a merchant house guard will probably have more clout than a Junior Merchant inside their House, and likely a higher plateau of authority as well. Junior Merchant Amos Salarr/Kurac/Kadius can't go ordering the officers (Lts, Captains) of their guard to do whatever he wants on a whim. This gets tricky because these people tend to be in separate branches, but in the average case, the Junior Merchant will be junior in standing. This is also reflected in the Allanaki chart.

The Byn:  This is more difficult since the Byn is a set of mercenaries often made up of what, for all intents and purposes, are hunters, foreigners, or  misfits.  I can see the top level officers, assuming they are Tuluki, gaining a social standing of that of "seeker, junior merchant, junior employee" at this time.  Later on, if the Byn manages to maintain itself and expand its operations - perhaps that might rise to "family merchant" level for the top sword of the Byn.

Good points, I agree. I don't really know if the Byn is important enough an organisation to be explicitly listed on the table, though.

Social status is not about who can scare who - that works outside the City Walls but inside, it's a different system of establishing the pecking order.  A better way to look at it is this:  if there is a massive party - who gets served first and then after that line up who gets listened to the most?

You put everyone in Tuluk in a line with the top ranking people at the front of the line.  The higher castes always get served before the lower castes - in other words, a chosen family member would get served before the head of a merchant house.  But, after the food and drink are served the Head of the Merchant House would command more clout in a conversation.  Of course, it would behove the Head of the House to not upset the Chosen Family Member and the converse is true (no Chosen Family Member would be wise to insult the Head of one of the Great Merchant Houses).

I also agree here. Going back to the merchant thing again, I would almost like to see blooded Family Member merchants in their own caste, while commoner employees of the Merchant Houses would be listed in the commoner caste. In this way you might very well have Junior Merchant Amos Salarr getting served before his Captain at a party by virtue of higher caste, but the Captain would still hold a higher rank.

As per Senior Merchants being equiv to Master Bards - I wouldn't agree.  Master Bards hold more social status and clout than a Senior Merchant.  There can be an argument made that Circle Leader would be equiv to a Chosen Family Member, and, realistically individual ones will be comparable to other individual chosen family members (but, as whole, with this chart as our guide most chosen family members outrank most Circle Leaders).

Strongly disagree here. Senior Merchants are going to be immensely influential people, and very very very rich. A Master Bard will also be immensely influential and very very very famous. Both will no doubt have very strong political connections with the nobility and the templarate. I don't argue that the Circle Leaders will be above Senior Merchants in standing, but Master Bards and Senior Merchants seem similarly common and similarly powerful to me. I don't see why there is a disparity in their ranking. (Senior Merchants being a full three clicks below their House Heads also seems odd to me, another reason they should move up.)

One final note:  I would still advise removing the reference "family merchant" and replace that with "ranked merchant."  Family members of the merchant families may not all be family merchants, and even when they are, they may be "in training."  Further, I have a concern that with the terminology of "family merchant" ... oh wait.  Family Merchant might just mean a merchant of one of the great houses.  Yup, confusing

I agree. This is another good reason for putting Merchant Family Members in their own caste - in some cases there may be blooded family members who are junior to non-family members that gained higher ranks through merit.

[Tlaloc]

For all intents and purposes, the T'zai Byn would act as a 'Merchant House' on this list, and most of the rankings would follow the 'Merchant House' column. The only differences I would see is that the T'zai Byn Commander may rank a notch lower than a merchant House head, though...that's honestly debateable, depending on the situation.

However, as it stands, T'zai Byn Sergeants would equate to 'Junior Merchants' on this list, Lieutenants would be 'Family merchants', and Captains would be 'Senior Merchants'. Troopers probably rank as 'entry level' employees, though Runners likely don't since who knows if they'll even be even be worth it to the T'zai Byn to keep around - and that should be sayin' somethin'.

[marko]

I'd disagree.  It's always about who can scare who - how they go about scaring them just changes.  This is not a system based on personal merit, it's a system based on the placement of and potential for martial, financial, and productive power.  Social status is often a reflection of what your group (i.e. organization, bloodline) is capable of doing.

Yes, my bad of writing too fast without rereading.  I meant to say it isn't always about who can kill whom.  While that is important it isn't everything.  

Someone who can destroy someone else's reputation so no one will do business with them holds power that isn't based on fear of death.  It is based on, if you will, fear of repercussions.  

In a law based society the fear of death is often replaced with fear of reprisal.  Fines, penalties, even social ruin are all possible results of messing with the wrong individual.

People seem to read the word "political" and believe it has nothing to do with the ability to make a physical threat.  Sometimes, but the threat is every bit as real when someone is taking away your food, your water, or your business, are they not?  They are still exercising their power over you by displays of strength in resources upon which you are dependant.

Very true.  

A person can develop power without using fear though.  As an example, in a group of five people one person tends to stand out as the leader.  Usually, this not because the others fear the leader but because they respect, admire, and trust the leader's judgement.  As the leader causes more people to respect them then that leader's power and influence grows.  This growth is not based on fear but on prestige.  

Others may fear the leader because messing with them will possibly cause the minions to react and yet the initial growth of power isn't about fear so much as others offering it up.  Once that power is gifted then there may be individual fear of stepping out of line would cause the leader to no longer like them.  But, the initial act of power acquisition, influence, and prestige was not generated from fear.  

Even the maintaining of power and it being recognized by others can be done without fear.  The fear comes in when someone considers acting against the individual who is acquiring fear.

I know, splitting of hairs, since in the end once that power is given then a fear of going against it develops.

[Dresan]

Byn same social rank as a merchant house? I can accept ankle biting halflings and all powerful sorcerer-kings but thats too far fetched.

I've never ever seen the byn given that much consideration..at all. Maybe its like that in the south but in the north, i just haven't seen it. Most of the time they aren't even thought of worth more then just low grade meat shields and thugs.

In the north the Byn can be useful but don't think they are thought of as nessasary and usually that usefullness or at least the bulk of it is to the Merchants houses (kadius and possibly Salarr). Also merchant houses are more useful and usually have better ties then the Byn do to nobles and templarate. The byn can't really afford to piss anyone off in the north, esspecially the merchant houses, while a high ranked byner can show up to any place with 100 troops if someone pisses them off, its probably not healthy for their organization.

I agree with Jherlen even if the rank of corporal is still a bit generous, and thats only because these are people(byn) with access to good assassins most of the time. This is not to say that behind the scenes they don't have a few well paid powerful friends esspecially if they are to keep they northern compound but publically they are still...well thought of as shit.  :cry:

I don't have the experience of LoD or the insight of Tlaloc so take what i post with a grain of salt but i have seen how they are usually treated, talked about and thought of often behind closed doors and i honestly don't see them having the social rank anywhere near a house merchant.

[Dresan]

I just wanted to add that i don't think family merchant members need their own caste, they already get a huge social rank modifer within their merchant house, and therefore in society, they are important but not 'special' , though i agree that ranked merchant member should be in there somewhere.

I do also agree that officers of Merchant houses sometimes carry a ton of influence and political clout within their house esspecially Kurac where officers can sometimes rise and become one of the heads of the house. Kuracis officers should probably have one small social rank above other merchant house officer equivilants since they probably do have more say in what goes on in the house, not to mention the power they are given at Luirs.

[flurry]

Should "Accomplished Thief" appear on the table somewhere?

You have Accomplished Artisan and Accomplished Assassin, and Master for each of Artisan, Assassin, and Thief.

[ale six]

I did a double take when I saw the Byn being compared to a Merchant House, too. That seems to be making the Byn into a much larger and more influential organisation that it's been portrayed as ICly in the north. Byn officers would have the same social clout as merchants and bards? I'm surprised.

For merchants, I would support either putting everyone with merchant blood in their own caste on one hand, or removing any reference to merchant family blood in the table currently. On the one hand, a new caste would be acknowledging a social/prestige boost that having merchant blood would give somebody. The other option would just strip family blood from the equation and let rank given by the merchant houses speak for itself (which still gives the advantage to blooded members since they're the ones who tend to hold the higher ranks anyway.) The system as it stands is kind of unclear with the title "Family Merchant" - does that mean every merchant family member occupies a higher tier than those with high rank but no blood?

[marko]

Re: Byn.

I'm a little surprised at the apparent clout and power of the Byn in the North as well.  Since they are a relative newcomer to the North and have not been active for some time I would have assumed they would have kept their initial "new to Tuluk" status and thus wouldn't have developed the networks that the Great Merchant Houses have.

I had thought of the Byn as still lower in status than others as indicated in a previous message discussing them.

That the Byn's top person would have more influence than a head of a Circle and even more than a noble is... significant.  

I suppose it can be explained that while there was an apparent quiet from the Byn they were active in ingratiating themselves with the Society and power structures.

[Gimfalisette]

Pretty much agree with all the other posters who think that comparing the Byn in ranking with a Merchant House is a stretch. They need to be ranked somewhere, but that seems too high.

I also think it would be valuable to see on this chart or in the documentation somewhere exactly how non-Tuluki fit or don't fit in. The Byn is a good example--their officers won't necessarily be Tuluki. Does being a citizen of Tuluk give a slight social edge to modify apparent rank, or maybe NOT being a citizen somewhat degrades rank? Or does it not matter at all? (IMO, it should matter a little bit. Tuluki are fairly xenophobic and very proud of being Tuluki.) Or maybe it's a matter not just of citizenship, but of how "valuable and integrated" to the Ivory that character is seen as being? So a merchant family member not born in Tuluk could move from Allanak, might not be immediately accepted or given full social credit for their rank, but eventually become considered "as good as" a Tuluk-born merchant family member of the same rank.

[spawnloser]

Just thought I'd voice my agreement on the Byn situation.  They're there, but they've been there for how long compared to the GMH's?

[Jherlen]

I'm in agreement with everyone else about the Byn. Now let me make noise again about the merchant thing....

I think the confusion here on this branch is in terminology, and changes would probably make it more clear.

When I first read "Senior Merchants" in the table, I thought the rank corresponded directly to people who would hold Senior Merchant/Agent equivalent ranks in the merchant houses. This is misleading, because in some of the houses this term is for the people who are at the HEAD of house operations. Kurac, for example, has one person who is Senior Agent and one person who is Senior Merchant in the north. It's been longer since my experience in Salarr, but as I recall Salarr only has one or two Emissaries in the northlands that hold basically the same roles. These people are not the Magnate of the entire Houses, but for all intents and purposes they would be the head of all operations in Tuluk.

By their rank ICly these people would equate to House Heads for the purposes of this table; however the wording is such that you might think (like I did at first) that somebody whose title is "Senior Merchant" might actually be at the "Senior Merchant" spot on the table, which is significantly lower.

A better way to word things, I think, would be to make the top spot in the merchant rankings read "House Head / Senior Merchant". Below that you could replace the entry in the table that currently reads as "Senior Merchant" with one that would say something like "Master Merchant / Advisor". Below that would be "Ranked Merchant" or "Merchant / Agent" in the position that is currently "Family Merchant". Everything below that could stay as-is.

To say things more succinctly, I'm asking for clarification so that people understand that the "House Head" rank does not necessarily equate to only one single person who is the Magnate of a House, since that one person may not even always (or ever) be in Tuluk and may not be the person directing operations there personally. Instead, House Head should be broadened and defined as the person/people who are at the very top level of Merchant House operations for a House in its northern branch.

[marko]

The problem with Merchant Houses is that each has their own unique organization.  This leaves two possibilities - first, to indicate each house and reveal their internal structure to everyone or to use generic labels and hope that players figure it out.

Head of House is the Head of the House.  Each House has a Head or two (since they are families sometimes it is a mother and a father of the House) and that is what that rank refers to.  The Head of House is one or two people - no more.  Not even the Northern Branch leader but the actual Head of the House.

Senior Merchants would be things like - most senior members.  So consuls, stewards, envoys, Head of the Northern Branch, or whatever makes up the most senior grouping of the Merchant House.  We should keep in mind (and I think this probably needs to be made clearer) that within each "rank" are an infinite number of levels.  

Let's say a House has three "senior level" rankings internally.  Then all three of them fit in the same social rank.  When talking to one another, they defer to the senior as per their internal ranking.  When others are dealing with them they would realize that the most senior is the most senior.

The big difficulty that I've noticed with merchant houses are their guards, hunters,  and officers.  Each House treats their guards, hunters, and officers differently.  One House doesn't consider them to be particularly powerful within their organization while another might consider an Officer to have significant power.

I can only think that there may be a case to be made to break out the three Great Houses individually but only if their immortals are comfortable with doing so.

[Cuusardo]

I don't see why you can't compare the T'zai Byn to a merchant House.  They're still running a business, but instead of selling goods they sell services.

[Sokotra]

I don't see why you can't compare the T'zai Byn to a merchant House.  They're still running a business, but instead of selling goods they sell services.

In Allanak, yes.  In Tuluk, not quite so sure as of yet unless things have changed there.  It seemed obvious that the Byn are much more influential in 'Nak than they are in Tuluk.  Then, like someone mentioned, there's also the question of if the Officer/Merchant is born/raised in Tuluk or transplanted from somewhere else... very important.

[Red Sunrise]

Head of House is the Head of the House.  Each House has a Head or two (since they are families sometimes it is a mother and a father of the House) and that is what that rank refers to.  The Head of House is one or two people - no more.  Not even the Northern Branch leader but the actual Head of the House.

Senior Merchants would be things like - most senior members.  So consuls, stewards, envoys, Head of the Northern Branch, or whatever makes up the most senior grouping of the Merchant House.  We should keep in mind (and I think this probably needs to be made clearer) that within each "rank" are an infinite number of levels.

If this is true - and it's a valid interpretation giving the rankings that were enumerated on the table - then the Senior Merchant rank needs to be given more clout. The Head of the Northern Branch of any House should be on a power level at least equal to that of a Master Bard.

I personally favor the interpretation that "House Head" can be expanded to include more than the people at just the very very top. The people at almost the top but not quite are on that level too.

[Naiona]

This is updated with what will probably be the final version now.  I've taken a lot of the points discussed here and added notes in the text portion of the file.  I have still refrained from mentioning any organization other then the templarate by name, as this chart is not meant to be that rigid.

[Dresan]

Mmmm,looks good, very sexy...

Thats alot of power to the merchant house heads but it does make alot of sense and it does fit since the merchant houses were the ones to help rebuild Tuluk along with other IC details.

I think though that the document should make very clear that it isn't rigid and that there are alot of social modifers to take into consideration before assessing someones real social rank.

For fun though maybe we should make a list of common (maybe not so common) positive and negative social modifiers. For example being a half-breed, definately negative, maybe even give an example of how negative it could be.

Otherwise its a damn good chat and am glad to see it. Real good work, Naiona, thanks for taking the time to do it.  

[LoD]

I think though that the document should make very clear that it isn't rigid and that there are alot of social modifers to take into consideration before assessing someones real social rank.

I, too, would like to see some mention that this ranking table is a general guideline rather than a hard and fast rule pertaining to social rank in Tuluk.  As Dresan mentions, there may be many modifiers that shift people up and down the list despite the ranking their title deserves.

My fear would be that someone referesnces this chart as their primary IC justification for treating someone a certain way, rather than using it as a general reference. (e.g. Why aren't I being served the pickled gurth stew first, I'm higher on the chart!)

For fun though maybe we should make a list of common (maybe not so common) positive and negative social modifiers.

Possible Positive Social Modifiers[/u]

Northern Born (primarily for Merchant positions)
Pure Blooded Human (primarily for Merchant positions)
Associated with a heroic or patriotic act.(e.g. Fought in Red Desert War)
Public Recognition by Higher Rank (e.g. High Precentor compliments you publicly)
Public Recognition of Achievement (e.g. Won a festival tournament, bard competition)
Patronage from a Higher Rank
High Levels of Wealth (Particularly displays of wealth that have a positive impact on others)
Alliances and/or Informal Ties to Higher Ranls
Environment is Controlled (e.g. In House Lyksae War Camp)
City is at War (e.g. Superior powers/standing may be given to Legion and/or participating martial organizations)

-LoD

[marko]

Off the top of my head.

More modifiers:

Positive

Patronage (probably the biggest single influence so expanding it a little)
- How powerful the patron is
- How many partisans a patron has
- How successful the partisans are
Known favor of a templar
Known favor of a noble
Public accomplishments, eg:
- a bard winning a competition
- a hunter destroying an abomination and this being known
- an artisan completing a major work that's on public display
Known and apparently respected by many people

Negative

Publically talking about magickers
Publically talking about nobles in a negative manner
Publically talking about templars in a negative manner
Clumsily attempting to manipulate others and being found out
Clumsy acts of etiquette, some examples:
- Acting above your ranking
- Being rude in the wrong situation
- Blundering in social settings
Clumsy attempts at insinuation
Being imprisoned

[jcarter]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

[jstorrie]

Positive:
- created a great work (bard or craftsman)
- comissioned a great work (anyone with money, esp nobles/templars)
- known for an artful exploit (assassin or thief)
- recognized as a patriot
- associated with a succesful bardic troupe

Negative:
- failed to complete a license (assassin or thief)
- known for poor work (bard or craftsman)
- led a failed project (esp nobility)
- led a failed expedition or military attack (templarate and legion)
- known to not make appropriate concessions to nobility/templarate (merchants)
- frequently or has recently visited Allanak
- associates with southerners / associated with someone who was discovered as a magicker
- partisan or employee has commited a breach of custom or grossly illegal act (aide turned out to be magicker, pet bard insulted a templar, etc.)
- known to have employed an unlicensed assassin/thief

[Reiloth]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

Well, if you appreciate the arts and culture, they are. If you're just an independant hunter, the most important thing in your life is obsidian. So you don't need to give a shit, basically, but...It kinda is what it is.

[jstorrie]

My biggest beef is just the feeling of constantly having bards shoved down my throat in Tuluk. The ranking page just gives this idea that master bards are better than just about every other commoner.

The chart does clarify, however, that a patroned Seeker of Poet's Circle (the commonly-encountered rank of many an in-game artist) is only about as ranking as a House Sergeant or an average Kadian merchant. Ranking bards of the Poet's Circle are relatively accomplished and experienced PCs, and accordingly uncommon. Master bard PCs are downright rare.

That being said, I know the feeling. It felt like Tuluk was downright flooded with Bard PCs only recently, although things seem to have settled down lately. If you feel that a bard PC is playing at bigger than their station, and your PC has the station and motivation to call them on their bullshit, why not go ahead and do it?

[mansa]

BUMP.


This TULUK is an ENFORCED CASTE SYSTEM, all players of Tuluk should be reminded of this Document.

Be sure to read this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005



This is one of the failing points of Tuluk - Along with the Partisan / Patron relationship.   It's the hardest part, and very few people play along with it, as they are supposed to.

[Coat of Arms]

I have a question and I'm too lazy to see if it has been answered.

Chosen Nobles are addressed by the populace as "Chosen Lord" and "Chosen Lady", followed by their given name and their house. Ie, "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" is a formal introduction, and "Chosen Lady Eudora" would be an informal usage.

Does this mean that if I want to stay formal, I have to speak out the whole "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" verse every time I want to address them?

Code Select Expand

You say, in sirihish, inclining ^me head humbly:
   "Excuse me, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari, may I request an audience with you?"

The haughty, silk-clad snob says something.

You say, in sirihish:
   "Thank you, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari. Oh, and how is Chosen Lord Amos of House Dasari doing?"...sort of thing?

[Coat of Arms]

Oh, hey, this is an old thread.

[mansa]

I have a question and I'm too lazy to see if it has been answered.

Chosen Nobles are addressed by the populace as "Chosen Lord" and "Chosen Lady", followed by their given name and their house. Ie, "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" is a formal introduction, and "Chosen Lady Eudora" would be an informal usage.

Does this mean that if I want to stay formal, I have to speak out the whole "Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari" verse every time I want to address them?

Code Select Expand

You say, in sirihish, inclining ^me head humbly:
   "Excuse me, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari, may I request an audience with you?"

The haughty, silk-clad snob says something.

You say, in sirihish:
   "Thank you, Chosen Lady Eudora of House Dasari. Oh, and how is Chosen Lord Amos of House Dasari doing?"...sort of thing?

I believe that's the difference between Informal and Formal.

[mansa]

Oh, hey, this is an old thread.

Yeah, it is.

The thing is that Tuluk was being ramped up to be awesome, and have their social constructs implemented into the game with documents...  Something that people could use.

And then Naiona left.  And that project got left behind after she was gone.


Tuluk is -hard- to play in, because nothing is documented well.  Your social status is affected by so many things, and none of it is in the docs.

[Adhira]

Actually Mansa, you'd be wrong.

Tlaloc and Ashyom implemented a new structure for Tuluk into the game which is now in operation.

[mansa]

Actually Mansa, you'd be wrong.

Tlaloc and Ashyom implemented a new structure for Tuluk into the game which is now in operation.

Okay,

The chart that Naiona wrote up - is that still in effect?

Are most things discussed in this thread correct?

If they aren't, we should know which ones aren't.

Cool.

[WWYD]

I agree with Mansa on the 'stuff is wrong with the docs' point, just not specifically the chart (which seems fine and dandy for me).

I.E, on the Tuluki Caste page, it says that Tuluki nobles aren't completely exempt from the law, and 'probably won't be hauled to jail' with the templerate doing discreet stuff. Further down, it says they are completely exempt from the law, and as long as they didn't attack a milita member/someone as important as them/a templar they'd be fine.

There's bits and pieces that are pretty much C/Ped from the Allanak documents, the titles (both noble/templar and literal titles) altered, but otherwise the exact same (like what I said above).

[Gimfalisette]

"Chosen Lady Fifi Dasari" or "Faithful Lady Martha Negean" is the full title to be used during introductions.

"Chosen Lady/Lord" or "Faithful Lady/Lord" is fine for commoners to use to address Chosen/Faithful on a regular basis, or between nobles and templars.

It is also fine to say "Chosen Lady Fifi" or "Faithful Lady Martha" from a commoner to a noble/templar or between nobles/templars.

Sometimes, commoners also use just "Chosen Fifi" or "Faithful Martha." This is more familiar, and also fine, as long as the particular noble/templar doesn't get upset about it. (IMO, those who get upset about it are straying too close to Nakki-style nobility.)

Nobles and templars can address each other by the above, or just by first name, depending on their familiarity with one another.

Templars address one another as "Brother" or "Sister" depending on the gender of the person being spoken to, or about. This can also be combined with first name: "Brother Brandon" or "Sister Sarah", for example.