Googly-eyed people

[Anonymous kank with wings]

A contrived example. Not a log. Room descriptions omitted for brevity.

>think The sun is beating down so harshly today.
>raise hood
>e
Caravan Way [EW]
The man with gigantic eyes is standing here.
>
The man with gigantic eyes looks at you.
>e
Caravan Way [EW]
>
The tiny little girl arrives from the west.
>
The tiny little girl looks at you.
>e
Caravan Way [EWS]
>em lets herself be carried along by the thick crowd.
AKwK lets herself by carried along by the thick crowd.
>
The big fat man arrives from the west.
The slope-browed half-giant arrives from the west.
>
The big fat man looks at you.
>
The slope-browed half-giant looks at you.
>
The slope-browed half-giant burps.
>s
[Theyak's Walk] [NS]
>em walks along at a relaxed pace, letting a thick dwarf making his way through the crowd create a path for her.
... walks along at a relaxed pace, letting a thick dwarf making his way through the crowd create a path for her.
>s
[Theyak's Walk] [NSE]
>e
[Dorna's Doorknob Shop] [W]
A hawk-nosed, dark-eyed woman tends the shop here.
>
A lanky thatch-haired half-elf arrives from the west.
>
A lanky thatch-haired half-elf looks at you.
>

Am I alone in being driven crazy by this? It's like have someone walk up to you and shove their face right into the cowl of your hood everywhere you go.

In the middle of a heavy crowd? It doesn't matter.

Walking down a darkened street with heavy shadows? It doesn't matter.

They will home in on you like the proverbial vestric.

Blah.

[Ghost]

Well, people can't really have a realistic interaction with the NPC and vNPC world so they are just trying to see who is around and is not an automated robot.  I don't really see what is wrong with it at all.

If you really want not to be bothered by the PCs, you should use some stealth skills or magick to cloak your presence.  After all, there is a coded way to get lost in the crowds.

[Marc]

Not to mention that a PC can't tell if you're wearing something they would notice without looking.  How do you know they arn't looking for the guy/gal wearing a red-cloak? or keeping their eyes open for a Kuraci?  Maybe they are searching for something with blue skin or emerald eyes?  Not everything is obvious via sdesc.  Just because a player 'look's doesn't mean they are getting right up in your face.  If they are, they should emote it.  If they don't, they didn't.

*plink plink*

[Quirk]

This is the perennial problem with the lack of a "glance" command.

At least assess -v tells you if someone's armed, these days. But it's still not possible to walk past a random stranger, paying them no particular attention, and be aware of the colour and design of their cloak, aba or robe unless they've got their hood up. If you're looking for a Kuraci, say, you have to scrutinise everyone you pass with such attention you can count the rings on their fingers - just so you can see their affiliation.

I do find "look" jarring when it's used on people who're merely crossing peripheral vision, and I try to use it only on people who have my character's attention. But this can lead to problems when someone is nearby wearing something very noticeable that my character should respond to, but we haven't entered conversation.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

I personally try not to use look unless I am giving that particular PC attention.  If I do briefly glance, I make use of command emotes to signify that it's a passing glance.  The reason I do this is because, yes, the look command can become jarring, and it also signifies some level of interest that may or may not be there.

This makes me want to put my chips in on an alteration to the look command.  Not a glance command like everyone is suggesting, but a revision to look to be more realistic, going off of a watch check (which amounts to your characters perception of his/her surroundings), and only displaying a message to characters who pass their watch check.  Highly affected by whether you are actively watching target or initiate.

[Lizzie]

If you\'re looking for a Kuraci (to use the example) you can just

Code Select Expand


l lanky\'s dun

If he\'s a Kuraci, something he\'s wearing will have the word \"dun\" in its list of keywords. If he\'s wearing a dun-something, then you know you\'ve found a Kuraci (if not the specific Kuraci you\'re looking for) and can do the \"look lanky\" with an emote showing that you\'re noticing his dun-thing and appear to be interested in him.

You can do that with most clans, since most of them have something in their uniform that isn\'t common for people not in their clans. Aba is a good keyword to look for, if you\'re trying to find out if that girl over there is a militia guard or a Bynner. If she isn\'t wearing an aba, then she isn\'t either one of them.

Armbands, aba, dun, blaze, gem, signet, cloak, sun, cross

All keywords that can help you find out if the person in the room is someone your character -would- take interest in, or if it was someone they would want to intentionally ignore. And all of those things are things that your character -would- notice, even if the guy\'s hood was up.

L. Stanson

[Anonymous kank with wings]

If you really want not to be bothered by the PCs, you should use some stealth skills or magick to cloak your presence.  After all, there is a coded way to get lost in the crowds.

I shouldn't have to dart from doorway to shaded alley to doorway just to be someone anonymous.

It's like I'm wearing a blazing neon pink batgirl outfit with steel accessories. Drawing all eyes from every direction.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

How do you know they arn't looking for the guy/gal wearing a red-cloak? or keeping their eyes open for a Kuraci?  Maybe they are searching for something with blue skin or emerald eyes?  Not everything is obvious via sdesc.  Just because a player 'look's doesn't mean they are getting right up in your face.  If they are, they should emote it.  If they don't, they didn't.

*plink plink*

This would explain one or two mysterious looks, but definitely not getting special attention from every single PC you happen to cross paths with.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

If you\'re looking for a Kuraci (to use the example) you can just

Code Select Expand


l lanky\'s dun

If he\'s a Kuraci, something he\'s wearing will have the word \"dun\" in its list of keywords. If he\'s wearing a dun-something, then you know you\'ve found a Kuraci (if not the specific Kuraci you\'re looking for) and can do the \"look lanky\" with an emote showing that you\'re noticing his dun-thing and appear to be interested in him.

You can do that with most clans, since most of them have something in their uniform that isn\'t common for people not in their clans. Aba is a good keyword to look for, if you\'re trying to find out if that girl over there is a militia guard or a Bynner. If she isn\'t wearing an aba, then she isn\'t either one of them.

Armbands, aba, dun, blaze, gem, signet, cloak, sun, cross

All keywords that can help you find out if the person in the room is someone your character -would- take interest in, or if it was someone they would want to intentionally ignore. And all of those things are things that your character -would- notice, even if the guy\'s hood was up.

L. Stanson

You don't even need to do that in many cases. If it's a Kuraci you're looking for, and she has her hood up, you'll see a figure wearing a dun-colored cloak.

[Larrath]

I look at people even if my character can hardly notice them.
Why?

Because maybe they're holding someone's disembodied head (what draws attention from the VNPC crowd).
Maybe they're wearing a ten-foot cactus as a hat.
Maybe there is something about them that my character would find completely unignorable, which I as a player cannot determine before looking at them.

At other times, I just do it to see if it's an NPC or a PC.  I'm not as big on solo-RP as I used to be, unfortunately, and if I see an NPC wandering around I won't often emote around them.  If I can identify the character as a PC, I know to start doing things.


The method of "look person's signet/dun/whatever" to determine whether they belong in a particular clan is very prone to mistakes.  Many characters will simply not be wearing their clan gear, or they might have clan gear you don't know.  They might have clan tattoos you won't be able to see, either coded or in their mdesc.
It's a good method in limited situations, but I prefer to just "look man" instead of doing this:

Code Select Expand


> checkout [<-- custom alias] dude
look dude's signet
look dude's robe
look dude's epaulette
look dude's braids
look dude's shoulder
look dude's dun
look dude's jade
look dude's templar
look dude's spice
look dude's striped
look dude's sash


[Ghost]

I shouldn't have to dart from doorway to shaded alley to doorway just to be someone anonymous.

Actually, not really.  In the crowded places, city hide works out as getting lost in the crowd.  The hide command in crowded places does give that echo to you as well.  

> hide
>You attempt to blend in the crowds  (or something similar to that)

So yes, if you really don't want attention, there is the code for it.  If you don't have it, or prefer not to use it, then some of the people will look at you in the road.  

By the same token, there is like lets say 50 people in the street.  And two of them looked at you passing by?  I don't see anything wrong at this picture.

[ale six]

Just a note: not all Kuraci wear dun cloaks, not all Kadians wear armbands, not all merchants/nobles will have their signets visible (some will be wearing gloves), and so on: the list of exceptions is fairly long. Lizzie's method, while convenient sometimes, isn't always reliable.

Personally, I think a look is just a look. I don't notice when everyone looks at me and neither will my pc. Looking at somebody doesn't have to be a long stare, it can just be a brief glance.

Walking down even a shadowy alley with your hood up does not mean "omgz I am invisible now anyone who looks at me is a poor rper!" It means, you are a person, with a hood up, walking down a shadowy alley. If I passed you I'd probably look at you too, to make sure you weren't going to jump me.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.

Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.

[ale six]

Most people will be nice and not use all the info look gives them if someone is hooded, wearing a facewrap, etc. Some will, but some people will always be twinks.

Again, as Ghost said: If it's really that important that you go unseen, then use seldom-traveled routes and/or employ some kind of stealth skills or magick. A hood is not a magickal shield against attention.

[jcarter]

When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.

Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.

For christ's sake, it's only look. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.

Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.

For christ's sake, it's only look. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.

It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.

[Ghost]

If I am looking at you, I am looking at you.  I would not be after a sdesc or something specific for a passerby.  I would be after something out of the place.  Just like Larrath said.  I would look for a weapon in the hand, for a really striking tattoo, for nakedness, for lost limb, for a glowing amulet.

If anything did happen to be out of place about you, I would pretend that I saw it.  If not, I would pretend some nobody just passed me.  What do I care?  So it is left to the PC on the other side of the deal.

On the other hand, still it is all too realistic to get looks on your PC.  

Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list,

Actually, asses -v does it.  Does not echo, gives your sdesc.  And you get to see the visible inventory from the desc the room provides for you.

[Ghost]

It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.

As I said earlier, why is it a big deal?  You are walking with like 20-50 people in the street.  Why is it so annoying a few people looked at you as walk by?

[Marc]

Thats a load of crap Anonymous.  If I look at you and your hood up, that doesn't mean I'm making more effort then if you don't.  If people are role-playing and taking environment into account (and you have to assume they are, even if they're not like they should be) they will realize they can't see that tattoo on your ass that's in your mdesc because you are wearing a pair of jeans and not your regular clear plastic skirt.

To play and enjoy armageddon you simply have to have faith in other players staying in character.

Since it is just lines of code there will always be ways to find a loophole or abuse ooc information or identify someone based on that mdesc ass tattoo.  It's just in the cards.  If you feel someone is 'cheating' email the mud account and the staff will handle it.  That's where karma comes in.  karma=trust and if a player abuses situations they lose it.  Perfect?  Not hardly.  Is there a solution?  Not really.

We could have character descriptions formulated and ppl just enter information in fields:

What color are your eyes?  Blue
What color is your skin? Green
What color is your hair? Ivory
What cup size is your chest? B
etc etc etc

and then just have a cheesy ass standard vanilla description for everyone where parts that are covered by clothing don't show up.  Someone can probably come up with a more elegant solution, but my point is if the code takes care of too much, we the players lose out on being creative with our descriptions or anything really depending on the the subject.

Trust fellow players just don't trust their characters.

I know that, if my character is conscious and at all paying attention to his surrounds (ie has the possibility of seeing a pc, periphrial [sic?] or not)I will look at them.

Oh yeah:  there is a SKILL that lets you see sdesc and equipment lists without echoing.  It's called peek.  Problem is it DOES echo if you fail the skill check which wont help the majority of players

[Anonymous kank with wings]

It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.

As I said earlier, why is it a big deal?  You are walking with like 20-50 people in the street.  Why is it so annoying a few people looked at you as walk by?

Because they're getting information that feels like an invasion of privacy.

If my hooded character is walking down the street across from yours, and yours gives her a casual glance, do you get to note the style of her hair? The color of her eyes? The shape of her face?

Not unless you practically shove your face into hers.

It like having each person walk up, grab her hood and go "yoinks!"  :shock:

A silent look or a different command with a difference message (glance or whatever) that just gives sdesc, equipment, held objects and gender would solve this perfectly.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

[quote}For christ's sake[/quote]

This is a load of crap

Hmm, well, I think I've said enough. If people can't understand the simple point I'm trying to make, I don't know what more I can add.

[Lizzie]

Oh, I know it isn\'t always reliable. But I RP with it that way on purpose. To me, it makes sense that a noble, who is in a bar, without his guard, and his hands covered with gloves, could possibly be confused with a noble\'s aide or high-ranking member of their house guard. I don\'t see his signet ring, I see only some silk clothing with the house insignia on it, and he\'s not with his guard. So sure, he\'s with the house, but he might not be a noble. Or he might be. How would my character react to this confusion? It\'s fun to play that out, and so I use this method on purpose.

The same goes for dun. Most Kuraci members I\'ve seen either have a dun cloak, or a dun container, or a dun spice pipe, or something with the keyword \"dun\" in it. So it makes sense that I would wonder why this girl who is -not- wearing something with dun on it, is serving the Kuraci at the table next to me. Is she a Kurac aide? Or is she just some slovenly no-body trying to suck up to the Kuraci for free spice? How would my character react to that confusion?

Things that most characters, in most clans, would typically wear or have intheir hands, are things that I allow my character to notice when she is trying to find out how they are affiliated, and if they are affiliated. If my character can\'t find those things, it makes good sense for her to wonder, be confused, make incorrect assumptions, etc. etc. It raises the potential for conflict, to -not- bow to someone in nice clothing but not displaying their signet ring. And the potential for conflict is always fun, for me. It gives me something to RP off, and encourages me to use the \"think\" command even more. Or maybe way my girlfriend across the room talking with her boyfriend to ask her if she knows who that silk-wearing guy is. Or otherwise get some interaction going. It may not work for everyone. It doesn\'t work in every situation. But I\'ve enjoyed doing it that way so far.

L. Stanson

[Marc]

People understand the point you are making.  You don't want people to see you when you're not hiding, not invisible, not wearing an mdesc mask.  You want to be incognito without using the coded tools available.  You want a new tool so people wont look at your mdesc.

Sounds crazy to me.  Understandable lunacy, but insanity all the same

[Ghost]

But by the same token, you are holding a neon lamp in your hand, and passing me by and I am not seeing it?

Or you are wearing an amulet that is shining bright?

Or a funny hat?

Or you have your face covered with hair?

Or you are naked and flashing your boobs in my direction?

Or your boots are metal?

Or there is a spider carved in your leggings which was mine before but it was stolen?

Or your hands have needles sticking out.

Or there is a tattoo carved somewhere on you and I have been looking for a person having that tattoo (Really this happened to be a case once)

...
....

There could be more but I am cutting it here since I believe I covered almost all of the wear locations.  About your ldesc, well, your hands could be blue and your face could be green and I would probably notice that too.

So I think look is good as it is.  This way we don't lose information that is crying out loud.  Just lifting your hood up does not make you invisible.  It even draws more attention if you are pulling it up when there is no storm.

[Marauder Moe]

I think people understand, we just flat out disagree.