Googly-eyed people

[Alberic]

I think the problem isn't with people looking at you, the problem is with the difference between people's behaviors when you have your hood up or not. I can walk down the street in-game with my hood down and not have one person look at me, but as soon as the hood goes up every single player I run into takes a look. It's hard to argue that players aren't making an OOC decision when the reaction is so noticably different.

Also, I like the circular logic going on in this thread and others. Here people have every right to look at you if you do nothing out of the ordinary and say if you want to not be noticed then sneak, and then in other threads people complain when pcs either sneak alot (cause they are twinking) or say they have every right to pay lots of attention to you if you fail to sneak well. So basicly sneaky types get double fucked. If we walk normally, people will look at us. If we sneak, people will look at us.

The arguement that we should trust the players to just be trying to see if someone is doing something wierd kind of falls flat too. If someone is parading down the street waving a severed head or whatever, then why can't you trust them to emote it rather than look at every single person that passes by? Of course people don't look at everyone that walks by, just those with a hood up.

PS: If you don't think this applies to you then maybe it doesn't, but it does to most people.

[jcarter]

If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.

It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.

What do you want us, the GDB, to do about it?

[Alberic]

If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.

I agree, but you should only have an idea if you take a close look. The way I see it, there is no way to stop people from looking at everyone that walks by, but if I am doing something sneaky and see someone paying close attention to me (like I see the look echo) I think I am justified in killing that person to cover up witnesses, or if I'm playing a jerk getting pissed off and in your face for eyeballing me. After all, life's harsh and you should be careful whose business you're sticking your nose in.

[jcarter]

If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.

I agree, but you should only have an idea if you take a close look. The way I see it, there is no way to stop people from looking at everyone that walks by, but if I am doing something sneaky and see someone paying close attention to me (like I see the look echo) I think I am justified in killing that person to cover up witnesses, or if I'm playing a jerk getting pissed off and in your face for eyeballing me. After all, life's harsh and you should be careful whose business you're sticking your nose in.

This is the root of the problem. The two sides have completely different expectations and views on what look should be used for, and how often. The problem with this is that there's two commands for everyone that can be used to gather information on them: look and assess. Between the two of them, there's a huge gap of information.

If I'm walking through the mall, I'll oftentimes look at almost everyone. Just sweeping over things, making getting the attention of a shirt's color, a funny hat, whatever. Maybe one out of every fifty or so people will catch me looking at them, because I'm not lingering for long.

Looking around yourself and at other people is natural. Everyone does it, it's hardwired into our brains to notice moving and living things. You're justified to do whatever you want as long as it's within your character's personality. If your character walks along the rode, eyes down at all times, then don't look at anyone. Most of mine tend to be normal and do glance over people, hence why most of my look emotes will give an indication of that.

In the end, looking at something is just nerves recognizing reflected light from surfaces. That's all. It doesn't mean someone's paying you special attention, people are looking for you, obsessed with you, or whatever.

[rishenko]

Tagging on an emote to indicate that is just a glance is unnecessary, I assume that a single look is merely the normal glance that you give everyone in a crowd as you move through.

I'm a command emote whore.  For some odd, obsessive reason I feel compelled to tag some form of emote onto nearly every command at nearly any given opportunity.  Personally, I feel it adds spice, although the 6,745th -

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l angela (omfg he's glancin' with a nod)  
- can get a bit tiresome.

*shrug* I suck, what can I say?

I practically ignore the look echo.  Occasionally I'll use it as an excuse to look back and tag a command emote, especially if nobody is doing a damned thing in the tavern.  Unless you're a slave told to stare at the ground, your eyes wander - over things, over people, over landscapes.

[Barzalene]

I disagree that hoods should hide that much. If I see you head on or from the side and you have your hood on, I'd probably be able to pick you out of a line up. Unless you have the magick cloak of invisibility.

[Quirk]

I disagree that hoods should hide that much. If I see you head on or from the side and you have your hood on, I'd probably be able to pick you out of a line up. Unless you have the magick cloak of invisibility.

Wouldn't that depend very much on circumstances? I mean, heck, people often have a hard job picking a criminal who attacked them out of a line-up a little while later, never mind someone who passed them on the street two days ago. Me, I think you'd need to be paying fairly serious attention if you wanted to try a trick like that - but I freely admit that I'm not observant enough to remember strangers' faces all that well, never mind hooded ones, and maybe other people are better.

[Barzalene]

It absolutely would. And I think I should probably confess to overstating.

I might be able to pick them out of a line up within the hour, or if they were very good looking or remarkably ugly within a day.

My real point is that a cloak doen't make you just a cowled figure like in the cartoons, where death wears a hood.

I completely overstated.

I mean, no! You're wrong! I am right! Neh neh neh neh boo boo! I want to fight your brother!

[Alberic]

Again, there is a difference between the normal person glancing at someone and then moving on and sizing someone up totally and noticing every little trait about that person.

You can't have it both ways. If moving anonymously down a crowded street can only be accomplished by codedly using sneak and hide then fine. But if the code also says that when you look at someone it's obvious and it gives you every single detail about what that person is wearing and looks like then it's only fair that we react accordingly. The only way I can imagine everyone on a street noticing me looking at someone is if I am blatantly staring and examining them in detail. If you don't want people to think this is what you are doing to them, then stop reflexively using the look command.

Edited to add: I think assess -v gives you a pretty fair idea of what you should get from a glance. It tells you how big they are, how wounded, how tired, and if they are carrying weapons. Anything more would take more than a glance. After all, all you people who claim they examine every person they see in real life, what was the eye color of the third person you saw in passing yesterday? Not someone you know or deal with on a regular basis, just some guy on the street when you were driving or something.

[spawnloser]

The problem with that sentiment, Alberic, is that you have to look at them to see if there's something you should notice.  Look is the only thing we have to give us this information.  The problem is when people assume that everyone is going to notice everything.  Look can be an in depth examination or a casual glance.  Don't get bent out of shape when someone looks at you.

[Alberic]

Why shouldn't I? Think about if in real life whenever you walked down the street everyone started blatantly starring at you and giving you a head to toe visual examination. I'd get pissed pretty fast or paranoid. Or when you walked into a bar and everyone turned from their conversation to stare at you for a few moments, eyeing you in every detail.

Seriously, you want PCs to accept that since cloaks aren't coded to cover your mdesc everything is visible, fine, I disagree but accept that is how it works. However, you can't expect me to then ignore the way look is coded to give an echo to everyone in the room. If the Imms didn't want look to be blatant then it wouldn't echo. Same logic as you are giving for cloaks.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

However, you can't expect me to then ignore the way look is coded to give an echo to everyone in the room. If the Imms didn't want look to be blatant then it wouldn't echo.

By your own argument ...

If everyone in the room notices when someone else looks at another, and it is not feasible at all for everyone in the room to notice this information, then it should be understood that it is up to the roleplayer's discretion how to interpret it.  

If you're actively watching someone across the room, chances are you would not have noticed.  If you're the target, and there's a line of sight, you probably notice.  If you're standing next to the target, you might mistake the look to be at you.  Use your imagination.  After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I don't think you have to take it so seriously when someone looks at you, but if it's in your character to be a cock, so be it, that's the game.

It's already been said, and I agree, you're just going to have to trust your fellow players not to use every minute detail of your character's description or attire.  Again, it's up to player's discretion what someone is going to choose to notice.

[jcarter]

Why shouldn't I? Think about if in real life whenever you walked down the street everyone started blatantly starring at you and giving you a head to toe visual examination. I'd get pissed pretty fast or paranoid. Or when you walked into a bar and everyone turned from their conversation to stare at you for a few moments, eyeing you in every detail.

Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.

[Alberic]

Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.

Then how do you explain everyone noticing you doing it?

Again, we come down to RP trust. In your opinion it's my duty to trust you not to abuse the information you get from look and I should pretend I don't notice you looking at me. You also claim that because the code doesn't allow hoods or facewraps to conceal the mdesc you can see everything. All I'm saying is that since the code doesn't conceal your looking at me, I have every right to roleplay you blatantly staring as that is how the code describes it.

[jhunter]

Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.

Then how do you explain everyone noticing you doing it?

Again, we come down to RP trust. In your opinion it's my duty to trust you not to abuse the information you get from look and I should pretend I don't notice you looking at me. You also claim that because the code doesn't allow hoods or facewraps to conceal the mdesc you can see everything. All I'm saying is that since the code doesn't conceal your looking at me, I have every right to roleplay you blatantly staring as that is how the code describes it.

The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.

[Alberic]

The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.

How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously starring?

[Cegar]

The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.

How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously starring?

Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.

[spawnloser]

To look at someone is to turn your eyes towards them.  That is all.  Nowhere does it say that you're staring when you look at someone.  You're taking the fact that you get the equipment list and main description to mean that it is staring.  You're reading into things too much.

Editted to add: Others notice?  So?  They may be watching the person being looked at.  They should use the same discretion as the person being looked at when it comes to this...and don't assume that the looker is staring and that's why they noticed and looked too, or maybe not even have their character notice at all?

[EonBlueApocalypse]

How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously staring?

That dude with his head down on the table didn't notice, I promise.  People have the -choice- of whether they notice it.  Seriously, if you think it needs to be changed, Ask The Staff or try Code Discussion.

This is -not- staring.  I think most people would indicate if they were staring.

[marko]

The code for staring or, rather, watching someone and noticing all their actions is watch person.

Look can be anything from a glance, to a smiling hey how are you widdle of the eyebrows, to a wannabe scary glare.  It's anything.  Look just allows you to see what the other person looks like.

It's really not a big deal.  Why does it echo?  'cause it does.  That's the best answer I can think up.

[Alberic]

Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.

The arguement is that there is nothing wrong with people looking at everyone that enters a room as it is a reasonable IC response to check if they have anything wierd like a chicken on their head or are carring a necklace of severed heads. Players should just trust each other not to use info like the person's description against them if they are wearing a greatcloak and facewrap.

My arguement is that if that is true then since looking at someone echoes to the whole room there should be no problem if an assassin decides you are paying too much attention and kills you for examining him. The looking is so obvious to everyone that it's not unreasonable, in my opinion, to treat the person looking as being too nosy for their own good.

Editted to add: In response to the people saying look isn't starring, the freaking code says everyone notices you looking. I don't know how much more cut and dry it could be. Either it is obvious to everyone or it would only be noticed by the watch command like assess currently is. If it wasn't obvious it wouldn't echo. Just like how someone wearing a cloak isn't hidden unless they hide.

[Cegar]

Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.

The arguement is that there is nothing wrong with people looking at everyone that enters a room as it is a reasonable IC response to check if they have anything wierd like a chicken on their head or are carring a necklace of severed heads. Players should just trust each other not to use info like the person's description against them if they are wearing a greatcloak and facewrap.

My arguement is that if that is true then since looking at someone echoes to the whole room there should be no problem if an assassin decides you are paying too much attention and kills you for examining him. The looking is so obvious to everyone that it's not unreasonable, in my opinion, to treat the person looking as being too nosy for their own good.

Editted to add: In response to the people saying look isn't starring, the freaking code says everyone notices you looking. I don't know how much more cut and dry it could be. Either it is obvious to everyone or it would only be noticed by the watch command like assess currently is. If it wasn't obvisious it wouldn't echo. Just like how someone wearing a cloak isn't hidden unless they hide.

Well, in that case, it is my opinion that you are wrong.

[Marauder Moe]

Uh... the code echos a lot of subtle things that most people wouldn't notice.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

You must be talking about when this happens this:

A big-nosed human man looks at you.

No, wait, he is staring at you.

A big-nosed human man turns his head back to a silly looking table.

He knows what you're doing ...

At a silly looking table, a big-nosed man speaks.

...

You should kill him.

[Alberic]

More like when this happens:

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west
A dingy bar [E]
A bar blah blah blah.
A big-nosed human is here.
A small-nosed human is here.
A no-nosed elf is here.
A fat-nosed dwarf is here.
A hook-nosed mul is here.
A tentacle-nosed cthulu is here.

A big-nosed human looks at you.

A small-nosed human looks at you.

A no-nosed elf looks at you.

A fat-nosed dwarf looks at you.

A hook-nosed mul looks at you.

A tentacle-nosed cthulu looks at you and you are driven mad.


So I am supposed to accept that all these people saw everything about me but I can't notice them noticing me?