Multiple currencies.

[RunningMountain]

Whadaya say? We can have ceramics for the desert elf tribes. Obsidian coins for allanakis and wooden chips with the sun kings sunburst on 'em fer dem tulukis.

[Kennath]

I think it would be awesome. Why do Tulukis have Allanaki coins anyway?
-Ken

[Irulan]

I think it would be awesome. Why do Tulukis have Allanaki coins anyway?
-Ken

This has always bothered me. Why would they want to use southern coins?

-Irulan

[bloodfromstone]

Yeah, it would be nifty. Then the exchange rate could screw people from other cities over.

[RunningMountain]

Yeah, it would be nifty. Then the exchange rate could screw people from other cities over.

Yes indeed.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

This is a good idea, and makes much sense, but what exactly is the economical gold standard in this world?  Is it obsidian?

It's more of something that I'd like to understand than something I am debating, with no intent to derail.  Who controls how much obsidian coins can be pressed, and in turn, who would control how many wood chips are pressed, etc?  What backs the coins (other than the region defined resources they are pressed from)?

I'm having a little trouble envisioning how the economy works in a military state where a small portion are commoners who hold less than one percent of the wealth.  Limited mercantilism?

[elvenchipmunk]

I don't like the idea. While I find it strange that Tuluk uses Allanaki coins, I think a better solution would be to make a more global currency, instead of making two types of currencies. Making two different currencies would be more annoying [edit - it would be annoying OOCLY] than anything else, imho.

[Kennath]

I like frustrating. If your character would get pissed off because of the exchange rate because both city-states claim there money is worth more GET ANGRY and reach across the desk and demand more.

-Ken

[RunningMountain]

I don't like the idea. While I find it strange that Tuluk uses Allanaki coins, I think a better solution would be to make a more global currency, instead of making two types of currencies. Making two different currencies would be more annoying [edit - it would be annoying OOCLY] than anything else, imho.

Foolish mortal, this is the point. Even though it's a small world, the 3 main dominant civilizations, (allanak, tuluk, and elves), SHOULD have different forms of trading currency.

While ont he subject I find it despicable that elves even use allanaki coins, just touching the taint of the black pit should be a curse in their minds. With all the destruction the tribes have seen come from the place. Honestly why would they not stick to trading and haggling, what they are renowned for. Or at least using something like a ceramic elven currency they come up with.

[Cuusardo]

My guess is it hasn't happened because Nenyuk doesn't want it to.  They're the ones who really rule things, don'tcha know.

[RunningMountain]

My guess is it hasn't happened because Nenyuk doesn't want it to.  They're the ones who really rule things, don'tcha know.

Nenyuk runs the banks, not the currency. The currency is dished out by 'Naks templars I'd assume. It hasn't happened because it hasn't been coded yet.

[Vesperas]

The core problem with this is that there isn't any universally valuable resource.  Metal, while rare no matter where you go, is simply TOO rare to be used as money.

The problem with obsidian is that while it is abundant in the south, it's a bit more valuable in the north.  However, using different currencies is just weird and unreasonable, even if the idea of making it ICly frustrating is an attractive one in keeping players stuck to one area of the game for longer periods of time (no more hunters that go from Nak to Tuluk every 2 IC days).

What would possess Tuluk to trade its currency (wood chips here) for obsidian chips?  Obsidian is valuable, but its sort of worthless at the size its been crafted down to to make coins.  The same goes to the south -- why would Allanak waste precisious money 'buying' worthless wood chips?  It's not a reuseable resource.  It's not backed by anything, unless wood chips and sid chips are just representative of some unseen stores of metal somewhere.

[Yokunama]

I think it would be awesome. Why do Tulukis have Allanaki coins anyway?
-Ken

Maybe they still use the same currency, because Allanak once owned Tuluk. And it would be hard for traveling and nomad traders, whom would mostly have obsidian coins in their pockets, to make purchases in Tuluk.

Thats just my opinion.

[Morrolan]

I can think of two "standards" for currency in Zalanthas.  One is water, and the other is magickal power.  Both are pretty much monopolized by the sorcerer-kings.

Obsidian isn't used in the south because it's worth something...it's used because it is cheap and plentiful.  Sure, it's worth a little, but I think of obsidian coins as akin to paper money...a note that marks a value, rather than something of value itself.

Morrolan

[RunningMountain]

The core problem with this is that there isn't any universally valuable resource.  Metal, while rare no matter where you go, is simply TOO rare to be used as money.

The problem with obsidian is that while it is abundant in the south, it's a bit more valuable in the north.  However, using different currencies is just weird and unreasonable, even if the idea of making it ICly frustrating is an attractive one in keeping players stuck to one area of the game for longer periods of time (no more hunters that go from Nak to Tuluk every 2 IC days).

What would possess Tuluk to trade its currency (wood chips here) for obsidian chips?  Obsidian is valuable, but its sort of worthless at the size its been crafted down to to make coins.  The same goes to the south -- why would Allanak waste precisious money 'buying' worthless wood chips?  It's not a reuseable resource.  It's not backed by anything, unless wood chips and sid chips are just representative of some unseen stores of metal somewhere.

Uh, do you know anything about currency? Why do we as modern day people accept PAPER as money? We buy all sorts of things with PAPER! That's ridiculous. The reason it's accepted as money is the CONCEPT of money. Yeah these pieces of obsidian are worthless, but stamp Tektolnes face on it and now it's money to buy weapons armor, food, to pay employees, etc.

The same should go for the major resource of Tuluk, wood. And for elves, ceramics would be an easy, abundant way of them having their own elven currency. The economy for both cities would finally be able to develop with their own currency. For example:
With 100 obsidian coins down in Nak you could buy a normal bone sword. But with 100 obsidian coins up north you could trade it in for 300 wooden sun king coins and buy all sorts of crap. The same would o for wooden coins down south.

Altering the exchange rates would really screw with players and would be fun! Nenyuk would finally serve a real purpose as a bank by having to deal with ursury and setting rates for exchange and all that shit.

[Vesperas]

Uh, do you know anything about currency? Why do we as modern day people accept PAPER as money? We buy all sorts of things with PAPER! That's ridiculous. The reason it's accepted as money is the CONCEPT of money. Yeah these pieces of obsidian are worthless, but stamp Tektolnes face on it and now it's money to buy weapons armor, food, to pay employees, etc.

Uh, yeah, I do know enough about currency to tell that modern value concepts won't always work in Zalanthas.

Unfortunately, Armageddon is NOT set in a modern period, and money is BACKED in most circumstances.  Zalanthas trades in actual materials and resources.

Altering the exchange rates would really screw with players and would be fun! Nenyuk would finally serve a real purpose as a bank by having to deal with ursury and setting rates for exchange and all that shit.

And how would they go about doing this?  There's a lot of potential here for seriously pissing off one city-states or both, by preventing trade or making it difficult for one or the other to acquire certain things.  They have to operate in both areas of the Known World.  They arn't a part of the governments -- they provide a service, granted a very lucrative one.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

It seems to me that, as the powers have consolidated into city-states, and that definite material resources (think noble houses, merchant family houses) back the coins, much in the way the economy worked in post-Rennaissance,  pre-industrial Europe.

Assuming the above is true, it is highly likely that Tuluk would have its own currency, as relying on Allanak for obsidian puts too much trade in favor of Allanak.  The two cities are hostile towards one another, but that is the nature of mercantilism.  One prospers, the other does not.  Wars are fought to levy the losses, keeping the two societies, in theory (though 'Nak is stated to be wealthier), at a balance.

More than anything, though, it does not seem IC at all for tribal peoples to use Allanak's coins (or even accept them, honestly), as they seem to linger more on the direct worth of individual goods and do not horde resources near to the capacity as the city-states.

Correct any of this if it is erroneous, as I'm fairly new to the game.  But to me, it does make complete sense that the city-states would use coinage that is abundant and costs nothing in trade.

[RunningMountain]

Eon pretty much summed it much. To assume that just because it's a fantasy world you're gonna throw out logic and rational in economic/currency debate is ridiculous. Every concept in games is taken from the history of earth in one way or another.

[Manhattan]

Oh krath, don't get me started on economics. I can go on for hours about monetary and fiscal policy. Shit.

Anyway, I think metal should be used as money in both states, branded with their respective sorceror king. That's the way it used to be on earth, even though gold was rare. Because of its inherent value, this won't be fiat money like you all assume wooden Tuluki chips would be.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

Oh krath, don't get me started on economics. I can go on for hours about monetary and fiscal policy. Shit.

Anyway, I think metal should be used as money in both states, branded with their respective sorceror king. That's the way it used to be on earth, even though gold was rare. Because of its inherent value, this won't be fiat money like you all assume wooden Tuluki chips would be.

That's not a bad idea, as metal has no seeming purpose but to be horded by the absurdly rich.  The problem is, there may not be enough metal to press into widespread currency.  Even if you made them small (like, say, 4 grams), you'd end up needing several hundred thousand kgs of ore to process into coins.

I'm not even sure that much metal exists.

[Intrepid]

I thought Nenyuk was also the mint that made the coins.  If so, it would be in Nenyuk's best interests to make expensive exchange rates so they could get their coins back and rip off the traveling consumer at the same time.

[spawnloser]

Myself, I'd almost prefer going back to pure Dark Sun style coins...ceramic pieces.  Simple, cheap and easy to mint...without wasting all that 'sid on material for money when it is better used to other ends.

[Northlander]

There was a suggestion a while back about giving all gemstones a fixed value, sellable to any seller at it. And another idea was to have 'offer item item'.

[spawnloser]

You can already 'offer item item,' but the way it works is kinda...crappy.  You can't haggle.

Oh, and all items in game have a 'fixed' value.  What causes values to apparently change in game from shop to shop is markup and taxes.

[mansa]

Currently, certain clans have a secondary currency.  So, in fact, we already have a multiple currency game.

We just need to expand on that.

I think the new immortals should work on it.

[Pantoufle]

There's already a lot of confusion and possible inconsistancies regarding the economics of Zalanthas without adding more unnecessary fuel to the fire.  For example, how does Tuluk maintain a steady supply of lumber without massive scale deforestation visible in game?  1 or 2 rooms indicating that a "few" trees which have been chopped down is hardly indicative of the requirements to build, let alone maintain, a city comprised largely out of wood (from city walls to buildings to items of trade).  Anyone who studies economics and natural resources might have something to say about the current setup in game (most of which, like different currencies, is better off as a virtual phenomenon).  

Incorporating varied currencies, let alone monitoring and maintaining exchange rates, would further the unrealism.  Unless you're a professional in such fields as this, I don't think it's wise to open the door to inconsistancies and unrealism.  Moreover, it's really not necessary.  Zalanthas consists of 2 major civlizations.  They aren't countries but cities, both of which speak Sirihish as the major language.  The Known World is a small scrap of scarcely hospitable land on an otherwise withered and destroyed world.  The Known World could be traversed (realistically, no spam riding included) within 1 game day, 2 at the most.  There's simply not enough distance for things like different currencies to exist.  Maybe it doesn't make sense for Tuluk to use "Allanaki coins", but I see a simpler solution as calling them simply 'Obsidian Coins'.

In my country we utilize 3 major currencies, and the exchange rate changes every second!  From week to week I am keeping an ever constant watch on the value of the (crippling) U.S. dollar versus the (much stronger) Euro as both have a direct impact on my monthly earnings.  It is my opinion that unless you know about moneys and how they have an impact between different countries (not that Zalanthas even has countries, it only has 2 CITIES), you're only going to succeed in creating a laughable system at best.

[Barzalene]

The thing is, is haivng one currency based on economics, or just short sightedness when the game was designed. (Not insulting the came's creators, but a lot has changed since the start and two currencies might not have occurred to anyone at the inception.) And wouldn't the ease of implimenting a new currency have more to do with whether other currencies were introduced than academic economic theory?

[Cuusardo]

My guess is it hasn't happened because Nenyuk doesn't want it to.  They're the ones who really rule things, don'tcha know.

Nenyuk runs the banks, not the currency. The currency is dished out by 'Naks templars I'd assume. It hasn't happened because it hasn't been coded yet.

I was being facetious.

[flurry]

It might be neat to have more than one kind of currency, but I wonder how that would work codewise.  Would only banks do currency exchanges?  Would some merchants (like in Luir's) accept more than one kind?  

It might be more intersting to see this develop in-game, rather than put in and treated as if it always was.  

Speaking of currency, though, I would love to see different denominations of obsidian coins coded (or at least documented).   It just doesn't seem believable to me that the only coin is the 1-obsidian piece, when sometimes hundreds or thousdans of sid are changing hands.

[Tlaloc]

Actually, the reason there aren't more currencies in-game has nothing really to do with virtual economic theory, anything like that.

The reason is code.

Years, and years, and years ago, someone started this project and set up the basis of having different currencies in-game. As I understand it, however, as work progressed, this seemingly simple thing turned into a very complicated nasty piece of work, and the project was eventually tabled.

You may see this in the future, or...you may not. In any case, I think it's a good idea. It should be noted that Allanak and Tuluk are not just cities, but city-states. They are essentially tiny nations, and so...would likely want to use their own currency. As for desert elves and Allanaki coin...eh, I think RM's opinions on desert elf mentality might be slightly extreme. Not all Desert Elves despise "the black pit". Different tribes have allegiances to different places at different times - but that's a complete derailment.

The point is, elves would probably use anything that helps them gain over another. If Allanaki coins are the objects in question...they'd use those.

[LoD]

The point is, elves would probably use anything that helps them gain over another. If Allanaki coins are the objects in question...they'd use those.

In fact, I always thought of elves finding the concept of the Allanaki completely hillarious.  I give them a pile of these worthless pieces of rock, and they'll trade to me weapons, armors, food, water, real estate, favors.  No wonder these people are so easy to dupe.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

I don't think they'd see it as that simplistic.  Elves are possessed of, on average, higher degrees of intellect than humans and dwarves.  Some of the more curious elves would probably look into the situation, realize that obsidian has value and that they formed a legal tender for goods representation and might actually appreciate the idea.

This is assuming that the entire system of monetary exchange wasn't actually started by an elf scam.  It seems like the kind of thing an elf would invent, wouldn't it?

[amish overlord]

Currency was formed to make trade easier. BEfore with barter system example from my econ professor.

I have econ lessons to give and I want lunch. So would have to find someone who wants econ lesson and that they have a lunch I want.
This makes difficult because have to find the right person for the product you want, currency however sets a price for all these. 100bucks for econ lesson and 5 bucks for lunch.

Small groups can do the barter system trade obsidian sword to bob the fruit grower for 5 kalans and so on. But in a city or world, it is more difficult. They found currency almost always arises somewhere, in POW camps in WWII a popular exampke was cigarettes, prisoners trade cigarettes for things they wanted amongst themselves and guards.

For tribals within the tribe a barter system is probably use and prehaps some currency, but they would recognise the value of currency for getting good outside the tribe. So bob the tribal elf goes hmmm i make good bows, joe round ear city grebber will pay me x amount of coins and I can go buy that nice cloak i saw for y amount of what he pays me for the bow.
I do not see tribals seeing coins as something that tricks people, just something that makes trade easier.

So i could see two currencies one for tuluk and one for allanak, being major competitors but somehow an exchange rate, prehaps 1 for 1 being use. Luirs and other cities/towns can see using both. Maybe redstorm more nak coins.

What is also intresting during colonial period tobacco was used as currency, so could grow ones own money.

Amish Overlord  

[LoD]

I don't think they'd see it as that simplistic.  Elves are possessed of, on average, higher degrees of intellect than humans and dwarves.

Perhaps not city elves, but higher degrees of intellect don't compensate for cultural differences.  Desert elves wouldn't have much use for these coins back in their tent encampments.  The fact that coin might be used there is probably more a product of playability than accuracy.  Desert elves would place value on things such as water, food, skins, territory, mates, weapons, armors, tangible things that have a use.

Piles of rock don't do much for the starving elf in the sands, so it was to these peoples that I was referring when I said they'd view the concept of the Allanaki coin to be slightly foreign and backward.  Of course they'd understand that the people of this city-state associated value to the coin, but that doesn't mean that they (the elf) wouldn't find it a funny transaction to gain things of worth (listed above) by handing over these chunks of rock.

City elves would far better understand the use of coin as a currency in the city by sheer proximity.  There are lots of people around them that find these coins valuable and are willing to trade important things to them anytime they want.  People like that in the open desert would be much more rare, and so the value of coins would likely be less apparent than things required for survival (i.e. food, shelter, hunting gear, water).

-LoD

[Nao]

There's the desert elf outpost where coin has quite some value, so at least the elves that do a lot of trading would probably use coin - and if it's only to make trading even between delves from different tribes easier.

[Intrepid]

Perhaps not city elves, but higher degrees of intellect don't compensate for cultural differences.  Desert elves wouldn't have much use for these coins back in their tent encampments.  The fact that coin might be used there is probably more a product of playability than accuracy.  Desert elves would place value on things such as water, food, skins, territory, mates, weapons, armors, tangible things that have a use.

Cultural differences does not equal a lack of comprehension.  Elves are opportunists and smart enough to learn and adapt for the sake of grabbing that opportunity.  Now, pride might factor into this somewhat for some elves and prevent them from learning about the funny little stones, but when you're trading you don't just keep in mind what you want--you keep in mind what your fellow traders wants.  The better dupe and/or trade with them.

Cultural differences cause initial confusion, it doesn't necessarily consign them to an eternity of ignorance toward another group's ways.  They might think it amusing or they might think it clever that the dull-witted roundears came up with something like that.  Elves aren't so limited in mindset that a blanket statement works for them.

Piles of rock don't do much for the starving elf in the sands, so it was to these peoples that I was referring when I said they'd view the concept of the Allanaki coin to be slightly foreign and backward.  Of course they'd understand that the people of this city-state associated value to the coin, but that doesn't mean that they (the elf) wouldn't find it a funny transaction to gain things of worth (listed above) by handing over these chunks of rock.

Of course sid is worthless to them in the desert.  I don't think the is a single answer to the elven mindset, even the typical one.  I can see them seeing it as a foreign idea, but given their intellects, I could see them seeing a bigger picture than what is just in their own back yard, so to speak.  Some elves might find it a method to even better dupes, while some might find it more constricting in the haggling process because it implies a precise worth rather than an approximate one.  With a race as intelligent as elves, your mileage should vary.

City elves would far better understand the use of coin as a currency in the city by sheer proximity.  There are lots of people around them that find these coins valuable and are willing to trade important things to them anytime they want.  People like that in the open desert would be much more rare, and so the value of coins would likely be less apparent than things required for survival (i.e. food, shelter, hunting gear, water).

City elves, however, don't really have to learn it.  It's built into their culture.  The Known World is small enough that even "remote" tribes like the AkeiTa Var and the Soh Lanah Kah have had enough brushes of trade with dune traders and the nearest city/outpost that they've seen the monetary system in action for ages.

I think the difference is that you're defining tribal elves as savages, whereas I define them as barbarians.  Savages are tribes that are truly isolated from the civilized world, whereas Barbarians are tribes living on the fringes.  (Before anyone says anything, I am aware that elves have cultural and technological advancement nearly equal to humans.)  The Known World, in the manner in which it was designed, renders it impossible to live in one of the three primary landmasses and truly be isolated.  As a result, cultures retain uniqueness but are not immune to the ways of others.

However, since we're derailing this thread, I'm going to leave my last point at this: If the Red Fangs can adapt to dealing with gith on a semi-regular basis in amiable ways, then I believe elves have the ability to adapt to deal with anyone.

[Angela Christine]

I think an elven currency is a non-starter.  Elves printing their own money?  Yeah, that's going to be a problem.  Why would The Sand Jakhals trust a Silt Wind's coin?  Or the Dune Stalker's?  Or the Blackwing's?  Within the tribe currency is unnecessary:  An Arabet doesn't need coins to transfer a skin of water to another Arabet, a promise to repay or trade later should be enough.  Between the tribes I doubt that any single tribe has the wealth and stability to guarantee the value of a currency.  I can't see a tribal currency working unless the individual coins had intrinsic value.



For tribal people I believe that the use of currency is mainly an OOC convenience.  The barter code is clunky, so they use currency.  If you want to be realistic it would make more sense for tribal people to convert all of their coin to goods before leaving a town than to start printing their own money.  The tribesman brings in his trade goods, converts them to placeholder coins, and then converts those coins to useful goods and services as quickly as possible.



* * *

Since obsidian coins have no obvious intrinsic value, I assume that they are valued at what they cost to produce.  You don't get massive counterfeiting because it would cost about 100 coins to produce 100 coins.  It isn't clear how obsidian coins are produced.  The most obvious way would be carving, the same way that izdari pieces are carved, but carved obsidian would be sharp, brittle, and generally pretty dangerous to handle.  I think it is more likely that the coins are pressed glass.  Obsidian isn't easy to melt, but someone channelling the elemental plane of fire should be able to manage it.  Then the molten obsidian could be pressed using metal or ceramic molds.  Have slaves file off the dangerously sharp mold marks and you'll have a nice smooth coin. The molds provide good uniformity between coins, without the need for an extremely skilled group of stone carvers inscribing every single coin.  Economies of scale probably kick in at some point, making it cheaper to produce a huge number of coins than to produce just a few.



I used to play a MUD that had only one currency, but multiple denominations of that currency.  It sounds like a good idea, but it really didn't do anything to improve the fun.  It would be a small OOC hassle for almost no benefit.

I don't think it would be a huge hassle, because there are very few situations where you would ever need to convert your coins, even if you are a world traveller.  Before going to Tuluk, snag a couple scrab shells and some obsidian swords or other trade goods.  When you get to Tuluk sell your trade goods and receive Tuluki coins.  Use Tuluki coins to buy whatever you need while in Tuluk, and when you are ready to leave convert the remaining Tuluki coins into wooden gauntlets, tembo hide bracers and other trade goods.  When you get to Allanak sell those items to local shops to receive Allanaki coins.  Repeat as necessary.  Even a bynner could carry a couple of items for trade, so that he will have enough local currency to buy an ale wherever he goes.  It is even easier if you happen to be a crafter and are able to produce your own trade goods as needed.   You never need to go near a money changer.


I can see Tuluk and Allanak each producing their own currency, just to be ornery.  (The only rational for Tuluk to produce their own coins would be for cultural reasons, because they can probably trade wood products for obsidian coins more cheaply than they could produce their own coins).  Luir's would likely accept both currencies, but not bother to produce their own.  Red Storm's major trading partner is Allanak, and they would probably continue to use Allanaki coins -- they don't have a resource useful for making their own coins, unless they found a way to make coins out of silt, sand or grain.  I suppose Cenyr could produce their own pressed glass coins, but what would be the point?  Tribal coins are silly.  So we'd probably end up with just two currencies.  Meh.

[Intrepid]

We never suggested elves print their own money, AC.  We were discussing the elven mindset toward the human monetary system and what they felt about it.

I do agree with one point: Allanak and Tuluk would mint their own money just to be ornery.

[Jherlen]

What I'm curious about would be exchange rates, if such a system were implemented.

Allanak and Tuluk were at war, so it's likely that if they even chose to accept each other's currency, they would both devalue it heavily. 100 Allanaki coins might only be worth 1 Tuluki coin in Tuluk, and vice versa.

And what about the Merchant Houses who do most of the trading, how would they react to such a setup? They probably would have some opinions.

It'd be interesting if either Kurac or Nenyuk started operating a coin exchange where you could trade in obsidian chips for wooden ones. The logical place for that might be in Luir's.


All in all, though, I can see how this would get very complicated very fast. It's something that would be cool, but maybe too much work.

[Intrepid]

Allanak and Tuluk were at war, so it's likely that if they even chose to accept each other's currency, they would both devalue it heavily. 100 Allanaki coins might only be worth 1 Tuluki coin in Tuluk, and vice versa.

When are Allanak and Tuluk not at war?

The above scenario is why I believe Nenyuk should be handling the minting of coins.

[Jherlen]

Good point, I miswrote. They are at war and always have been.

I never saw Nenyuk as a mint, just a bank, though.

Maybe those Tuluki treehuggers gave into the environmentalist lobby and decided not to chop down trees to make currency, so they accept the 'nakki obsidian instead.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There was a suggestion a while back about giving all gemstones a fixed value, sellable to any seller at it.

I was going to suggest this myself. Gems are more prevalant to the North, and while you can go out and find them, I don't think it would devalue them any more than the obsidian is devalued in Allanak. I do think that a gem would be worth more in Allanak than in Tuluk, but that's a simple matter.

As far as that goes, if you wanted a tribal currency, gemstones would again be the way to go. There is no need to print them, and they are just about as easy to carry about as the obsidian coin, especially if you count the fact that a single gem would be worth more than a single obsidian coin.

I would like to see the item trading portion of barter improved. However, it seems like the entire thing would be complicated on the staff side.

[Rindan]

What I'm curious about would be exchange rates, if such a system were implemented.

Allanak and Tuluk were at war, so it's likely that if they even chose to accept each other's currency, they would both devalue it heavily. 100 Allanaki coins might only be worth 1 Tuluki coin in Tuluk, and vice versa.

If each city state had their own coins, they would not be able to directly 'devalue' the others.  The value of an Allanaki coin is that you can go to Allanak and buy something.  The value of a Tuluki coin is that you can go to Tuluk and buy something.  If some is willing to give you a 500 Allanaki coins which can buy you a very nice new kank in Allanak for 5 Tuluki coins that can only buy you a travel cake in Tuluk, it is pretty clear which has more value.

Basically, the value of the coins are independent of each other and set by city states.  If Allanak says that water from the fountain costs 50 'sid, then they basically set the price for everything else.  The city state of Tuluk would set price in a similar manner.  That isn't to say that the currencies might not fluctuate.  If it looks like Tuluk is about to get stomped by Allanak (again), traders that move between the cities might not be all that eager to trade Allanaki coins for Tuluki coins.

Personally, I think having two currencies would be neat, especially if there was no easy way to exchange them.  A smart trader could make a good living exchanging currencies.  Further, it would make going to a city state other then your own far more intimidating and far more risky.  

That said, as I think has already been said, the issue is more code limitations then a want to have two currencies.

[Angela Christine]

We never suggested elves print their own money, AC.  We were discussing the elven mindset toward the human monetary system and what they felt about it.

The very first post suggested a ceramic currency for elves.

[Intrepid]

The very first post suggested a ceramic currency for elves.

Ah, I see now.  My mistake.

[Spooman]

I just think, for simplicity's sake, to keep the Obsidian coins. Come on, give the staff a break, they've been making improvements like CRAZY, take it easy on them...

[Dresan]

I like the idea of two currencies but unfortunately due to RL cultures, people tend to avoid inconveniences. I'm not sure what effects two currencies would have, but it could very easily have a negative effect on travel and merchants.  Maybe thats a good thing, maybe its not...but we've seen how something being less convenient means its done or used less.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

I like the idea of two currencies but unfortunately due to RL cultures, people tend to avoid inconveniences. I'm not sure what effects two currencies would have, but it could very easily have a negative effect on travel and merchants.  Maybe thats a good thing, maybe its not...but we've seen how something being less convenient means its done or used less.

Personally, I think it would make planting yourself in one city a more desirable option.  Independent characters wouldn't necessarily be penalized, but life would definitely be more lucrative to focus on doing most of your business in one city-state.

[Angela Christine]

Personally, I think it would make planting yourself in one city a more desirable option.  Independent characters wouldn't necessarily be penalized, but life would definitely be more lucrative to focus on doing most of your business in one city-state.

Not really.  For most traders a multi-currency system wouldn't affect the bottom line at all, because they don't carry around money, they carry around trade goods.  This system would only penalize tourists and one-way merchants, both of which are pretty rare.

Tourists are people who travel between the cities, but have nothing tangible to trade.  They could be mercenaries, caravan guards, messengers, spies, or other people that travel but don't themselves carry trade goods.  If they wanted to buy anything (including food and water) outside their home city they would have to visit a money changer.

One-way merchants are people who take trade goods from one area to the another, sell all their goods, then return to the first area with nothing but cash.  Sometimes you can find an item that costs much less in one city than it sells for in the other city, so just that one product can make it worthwhile to make the trip and return with nothing but cash, but usually those goods quickly become well known, and are no longer a "sure thing" to make quick cash.  Certain raw materials traders do this too: Kill scrabs, then travel the known world selling scrab shells to everyone, or gather bimbal leaves, then travel the known world selling bimbal leaves to everyone -- they only collect materials in one area, but then sell everywhere.  These guys would either have to visit a money changer, or simply start carrying trade goods both ways on their trip.

I wonder how the banking system would deal with multiple currencies?  We have one bank with branches in several cities, but you can access your account from any branch.  Would the branches disconnect, and each one deal with just the local currency, or would each branch keep track of all your money in all currencies?


>balance
>You have 219 obsidian coins in this branch.

OR

>balance
> You have 219 obsidian coins,  132 wooden coins and 492 ceramic coins in your account.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

AC - A boy can dream, can't he?

[Lazloth]

I wonder how the banking system would deal with multiple currencies?

>balance
> You have 219 obsidian coins,  132 wooden coins and 492 ceramic coins in your account.

That's how HSBC/RBC work, right?  You have US and Canadian accounts; can transfer money between (at today's market rate - whatever fee), but they're kept autonomous.

I think on Zalanthas, it could work differently; a common monetary "unit" could exist invisibly.  When you check your balance at a given branch, it would default to the local currency (and do the appropriate math).

So, on this particular day, the raw conversion factor shows: (arbitrarily) 1 'Naki coin = 2 Tuluki coins = 10 tribal coins.

[ You have 219 obsidian coins,  132 wooden coins and 492 ceramic coins ]

In Tuluk:
> balance
> You have 536 coins in your account.

In Allanak:
> balance
> You have 334 coins in your account.

If you wanted to withdraw wood in 'Nak, you'd have to convert the funds (at whatever rate); same with depositing foreign currency.

[jstorrie]

The substance coins are valued against is water: a certain amount will always buy you a certain amount at the temple of the Dragon in Allanak. Theoretically, the Tulukis could have ceramic pieces and the same kind of system.

Currencies that sway in relation based on each city's access to water, the relative scarcity of water versus other goods, and the cities' relations to each other and perceived stability would be awesome. I'd like to see Nenyuki AND independent moneychangers, with the indies unreliable and sketchy but with varying prices.