Eating and Drinking at Taverns

[Nightstring]

If I've missed something and somebody has already made this point, then just ignore this.

Isn't it the case that you don't get hungry or thirsty while you're logged out? You don't have to pay for food or drink that your character is virtually eating to stay alive. With this in mind, it is my opinion that high food prices are 'even Steven', so to speak.

Digression:
Of course, this is mildly exploitable: you could log in just to work and get a profit, then log out as soon as you are done to minimize your losses from having to feed your character as much... but requiring that players check on their characters like some kind of tamagotchi to feed them is hardly plausible.. so you have the system we have in place now for playability reasons.

To digress even further: I think that, while it is important to minimize the amount of jarringly unrealistic 'glitches' in the fabric of Zalanthan reality.. you must draw a line somewhere and apply suspension of disbelief and just turn a blind eye.

Trying to make Armageddon as realistic as any reality, even one taking place in a fantasy world, is like squaring the circle.. you can get close, but it's just a MUD, so you can only get so close. To add an unnecessary and possibly obnoxious example: Even the Matrix from that gratuitously overrated sci-fi trilogy had glitches in its reality, and I doubt even the most complex MUD code is even comparable to whatever it is that *that* runs on.

[spawnloser]

Anonymous Kank With Wings, I wouldn't be surprised if your characters get kicked out of taverns.  Your character is too poor to eat at the tavern?  Get the fuck out.  Go somewhere s/he can afford to eat when you're hungry.

Ignoring the realism of the owner/operator of an eatery potentially getting upset when you bring outside food?  Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Anonymous Kank With Wings, I wouldn't be surprised if your characters get kicked out of taverns.  Your character is too poor to eat at the tavern?  Get the fuck out.  Go somewhere s/he can afford to eat when you're hungry.

Ignoring the realism of the owner/operator of an eatery potentially getting upset when you bring outside food?  Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

*AKwW buzzes her wings in momentary irritation*

Firstly, did I say anywhere that my character eats in taverns? I gave a RP example for a fictitious character.

Secondly, I think this issue is simply an example of going over the top concerning what I call "mechanical RP". This is where people focus on trying to detail every little physical aspect of themselves and their environments. It adds color when used sparingly but frankly beyond that it just becomes pointless. Is it really that important to detail that that seat creaks when you sit down in it for the fifteenth time? Or to indicate that, to smile, you pull your lips upward at the edges? Or that you dip your head to perform a nod?

Mechanical RP has its place but I'd really rather concentrate on the core of RP, which is character development and interaction, and I'm going to find a lot more of that by staying in the tavern than ducking out to eat furtively under a shop awning over some, to be honest, bullshit technicality.

Let me ask you this, too. If you're so concerned about mechanical RP, do you visit the Jal pipes every four or five hours, drop your drawers and emote taking a crap? There are just places where one draws the line, and this is one of them.

Thirdly, I would say a strong case has been made that it would not be unreasonable for people to eat their own food in taverns. It's a dirt poor society and the tavern prices do not reflect that. Rather than going through contortions to get around this, I'm going to say that obviously on Zalanthas, bringing your own food into a tavern is OK. They're more than happy enough to collect your 'sid now and then when you can afford it, as well as that of your friends that you draw in. It's worked perfectly well since the mud opened and I see no reason to change now unless some cheap food is introduced.

[Cale_Knight]

Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

I would be, if I were the owner of the local Olive Garden. Maybe not so much if I owned Joe's Tavern, a medieval establishment in a post-apocolyptic desert world.

You really, really can't compare the two cultures.

[Quirk]

Secondly, I think this issue is simply an example of going over the top concerning what I call "mechanical RP". This is where people focus on trying to detail every little physical aspect of themselves and their environments. It adds color when used sparingly but frankly beyond that it just becomes pointless.

To wander off-topic for a moment, I actually appreciate a lot of this. Why? Because I use look sparingly, and I never read mdescs in any detail. I skim them, trying to find a notable feature or two, but usually I've just got to the line about "her olive-skinned cheeks have a delicate roseate hue" when the screen's scrolling and I go down to respond to an emote or say, and in the course of so doing I forget about 90% of what I just read. You could give me a line-up of character faces that my character RPs with regularly, and the only way I'd be able to pick any of them apart is via the sdesc.

So, I rely largely on people filling in the gaps for me to get my immersion. The dude who reminds me he's wearing a drab cloak and lets me know there are some gaping holes in it has my gratitude. The old woman who every now and then lets me know that her nose would be no disgrace to a mid-sized eagle is doing me a favour, particularly if she's neglected to mention it in her sdesc. My picture of them is otherwise going to be that bit hazier, and if they never fill in those details, I might as well be in a chatroom. And - I forget. If you've not mentioned how your long hair blows in the wind to me, specifically, in the past week, I'm probably at the stage where I've mostly forgotten just how long it is.

And this goes doubly for the more unusual things they might choose to do. I especially hate seeing someone cast magick without throwing out at least one or two emotes to describe what they're doing, and what the result is. Even if it's the same thing they always do, it really helps me visualise the scene in a way I won't (and often can't, through insufficient information) if they leave it to my imagination. Besides, I have to restrict my imagination; giving it free reign often leads me to think of what they've just done in a way different from the way they've thought of it in their head, and when those differences come to light, they're jarring.

Is it really that important to detail that that seat creaks when you sit down in it for the fifteenth time? Or to indicate that, to smile, you pull your lips upward at the edges? Or that you dip your head to perform a nod?

Ah, the tugging lips, the dipping head. Yes. These are seen way too often, largely because people find themselves stuck for synonyms when relating their character's body language during a conversation. It sounds horridly stilted. But the two alternatives are scarcely more pleasant: divorce the body language from the conversation, which can really hurt your ability to get across the tone you're trying to convey, or render your victims speedily sick of the words "nod" and "smile", especially in conjunction with overused adverbs and modifiers.

As regards taverns, though, I think the food and drink is heavily overpriced. You can spend a hundred sid or more in many a tavern and not fill your belly - and don't get me started on the price of water. Most of us don't want to have to devote so much of our game time to making money that we can afford to live off tavern food. (And no, you don't have to pay to eat while logged out. You aren't earning any sid while logged out, either, unless you're on a salary, and most of the time if you're on a salary you also get free food.)

Of course, it's barely cheaper to have a cooking habit. If a dish requires you to purchase fifty sids' worth of ingredients to end up with what looks like a very modest bit of home cooking, is it any wonder that most cooks stick to the cheapest and most basic dishes they can make?

Ah, but what about the hunters? The price has to stay high for them to be able to make a living, right? Well, given how many creatures several times their size they have to slay to get a full belly, I'd suggest that maybe, just maybe, it would make sense for hunting to produce more (and cheaper) meat?

When filling my belly on tavern grub costs significantly less than eight or nine weeks' wages for an artisan in a Merchant House, sure, I'll be eating there. Until then, I don't see the set-up as realistic, and I'll be eating only the occasional dish for the purposes of RP colour; and because I don't see the food set-up as in any way mirroring realism, I will have no shame in eating my own food there, unless it's a really very high-class joint and overblown prices might make some kind of sense.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm with Quirk. Paint your world. Don't draw stick figures.

[spawnloser]

Oh, winged one...you said if you were given flack by tavern-keepers about eating your own food instead of there offerings, you would respond with some belligerant sass back.  To that I responded with my thoughts on a character of yours being kicked from a tavern.

Secondly, there is a difference between doing something while ignoring the RP and simply not roleplaying a certain aspect of real life that is not represented in the game to begin with.  Oh, and yes, I've had my characters go to evacuate bladder or bowel before, a few times.  The usual condition is that my character is getting piss drunk.  Reasons for this?  First, when drinking, you're bringing in fluid that's gotta go somewhere.  Second, it's more entertaining for the people around my character when s/he announces and then goes stumbling out and is gone for half an hour IG.  See, I do it when it is appropriate for my character and when it is appropriate for the story.

Now, just so we're clear, I'm not saying you can't eat in a tavern.  I'm saying that eating a full on meal instead of a snack is RUDE to the person running the joint and I would be fully in support of that person coming down on someone that pulls such.  I'm saying that ignoring the possibility that the owner/operator would get mad isn't so great.  I'm saying that your character getting belligerant when confronted by the owner (a scenario that you introduced) is starting to get militant in the direction of eating what you want when you want damn the realism.  I'm saying that there is a middle ground of realism...which doesn't require eating nothing unless purchased at the bar, but also doesn't allow people eating full meals imported.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I'm saying that eating a full on meal instead of a snack

Alright. I can live with people being limited to snacks in the taverns then.

[mangler]

I've got a couple point to make:

1) Earlier, some people were saying that beer is make of dirty water, bathwater, whatever, but if it was, the stuff would taste like piss, my father is an experienced brewer, and i've learnt a few tricks, and you simply can't make beer with dirty water, if you did, then why doesn't it say, when you take a sip from that 20 'sid mug of ale:
"This ale tastes like beggars piss."

and...

2) Also, what the tread was originaly about, reminded me of another thread, about having a PC bartender, I though that was a good idea at the time, but now it could be even more usful, as he could kick out people who just sit there all day sipping on their muddy water, and chewing at their travel cake.

[joyofdiscord]

Oh geez, not this argument again.  Would it be -so- hard to go looking for old threads where these issues were already addressed?  I mean, c'mon, sjanimal had this same complaint two years ago.  And John, you've been around since at least two years before that thread was made.  I can remember at least one thread since then with the same gripe, and probably a second one, too.

Just so everyone remembers (because I remember these sort of things and I hate when the same misconceptions have to get cleared up over and over again because people just can't resist flinging accusations of twinkery at other players, accusations based on ideas firmly rooted in the real world and not Zalanthas), here is Xygax's response from the above linked thread:

To some degree, I think the concept of taverns on Zalanthas is a bit different from what it is in modern-day western society. The owners of these taverns don't expect every occupant of the tavern to be a paying customer. In fact, the people in these taverns may be conducting their own business... for a tavern owner, though, even the non-paying customers can be profitable, since they likely bring other customers by who -will- buy things, by virtue of their simply being there.

Furthermore, some of the lower-quality taverns are as much "public houses" as they are taverns, and so not only expect customers to being laying about half-dead and half-drunk (or at least generally motionless), but in fact largely exist for that purpose (at least they aren't clogging up a central "financial artery" like Caravan Road).

-- X

You guys are confusing the Gaj and the Barrel with Ponderosa and Applebees.  Comparisons to RL restaurants are bad, bad, bad, wrong!!  They are not valid, for a myriad of reasons.  I suspect that income from food and drinks would represent a relatively small chunk of a tavern's total income.  Come on guys, you've all been around Zalanthas long enough to suspect what -really- goes on in these taverns.  

The bartender and servers are probably busy subtly listening in on your conversations to sell you out to the Templarate, the Guild, or whoever is paying.  That slimeball rinther in the corner who never buys anything?  Guess what, he's probably bribing the bartender to look the other way while he finds buyers for spice in the tavern.  My characters, especially criminal types, have bribed NPC bartenders regularly, and I find it hard to believe that no VNPC criminal has thought of the same thing.  Some of my bribes have been more than all other PCs probably spent in that bar all together over a couple IC days.  Guess whose business that bartender probably valued more, travel cakes or no.  Crooked (or semi-legit) gambling, con games, prostitution, all this is probably common in lower-class taverns (which I define to include the Bard's Barrel), and the tavern surely gets its cut of the action one way or another.

Now, if someone is actively causing trouble in the tavern -and- not buying anything, that could be a problem.  I've seen IMMs animate the bartender to make that abundantly clear on those occasions when it has happened.  Seriously, though, if someone is causing trouble, the 20 sid they laid down on ale is not going to keep them in anyone's good favor.

2) Also, what the tread was originaly about, reminded me of another thread, about having a PC bartender, I though that was a good idea at the time, but now it could be even more usful, as he could kick out people who just sit there all day sipping on their muddy water, and chewing at their travel cake.

Your PC bartender would quickly become a pauper.  You -really- want to stifle the kind of business that PCs bring when they congregate in taverns, as PCs are apt to do, and instead concentrate on selling 12 sid ales that probably make you 6 sid profit, tops?  Uhmm... sure... whatever makes you happy I guess.  I just hope your ale brings in enough money to pay off the Templarate when they come knocking.

[Tisiphone]

There's a simple solution. Play an asshole who doesn't care if the bartender gets offended.  

[Morfeus]

To be honest, I always compared Zalanthian taverns with pubs we 'build' for our historical fencing actions (no, they are not the same as you have in US. But that is not my point). So, lets say, the bartender comes and builds up a tent in which he provides some food and lot of drinks. People come and go. Some people buy some food and drinks, some don't. Some people come just to chat a bit. Some of them come with things they want to sell to look if there is anyone interested. Some even bring own bottles. Why the bartender doesn't care? Because having all that people seated there and coming to do business and meets their friends into his tent raise the possibility they will buy his food and drinks. If he gets annoying, we would take our drinks/food/wares/friends and go sit elsewhere, outside, for example. There is strong possibility we will drink less that way, because going back to the tent to buy a drink means leaving your friends, chats and business for a moment and walking back to the annoying bartender. Yes, we -still- would buy drinks from him. But he will gain less.
I agree that this discussion is too much about irl restaurants. I still would buy food from bartender in Barrel, unless I have reason not to. The fact I am coinless is IMHO valid reason not to buy anything - but why would be the bartender angry? I might have friends with money or customers with money or I might gain more next month or I serve that Important person or... or...
All IMHO, of course.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Bing bing bing Morfeus. Agree totally.

And cheap food? Hell yeah! In a world where water is scarce, why would my food cost more than my ale?

And why is ale less expensive than water? In real life, cheap beer is 'watered down' but in Zalanthas, what if cheap ale was '[other ingrediant]ed down' ? I had this discussion with someone once, and I think we came up with the conclusion that Zalanthan ale was probably real thick with other ingrediants so they could use as little water as possible.

[creeper386]

Obviously. My point is that the ingredients it takes to make beer, wine, or even liquor are going to be much more expensive than a like amount of water, regardless of the actual physical effects of drinking it.

You have expensive water. You add in cheaper ingredient which end up increasing the volume of liquid you then have. You then sell it. The price of the cheaper ingrediants DOES help lower the price.

And alot of places, a bottled water is more then a beer. The water is pure, the beer is diluted water. It may not have a large percentage of other stuff in it, but it does have more then water in it.


Creeper

[Marauder Moe]

Beer was/is cheaper than water because without modern storage materials, water goes bad.  The alcohol in beer acts as a preservative.

[House Rising Sun]

Extremely poor people living in tiny apartments in densely populated cities haven't been able to cook for themselves at times in the past, partly because there was no place to cook. Taverns made giant pots of stew and prepared hearty meals for the whole day, and people would eat cheaply. I can imagine that in our cities (especially Allanak), where there isn't exactly farmland to spare. The taverns would sell cheap, really crappy stew or something, probably thickened up with inedible plant fiber or anything else that's cheaper than actual food.

What I can't feature at all is a place selling finger food like they do in modern bars. Potato skins and buffalo wings to go with your five dollar beer? Totally inappropriate.

[jmordetsky]

Extremely poor people living in tiny apartments in densely populated cities haven't been able to cook for themselves at times in the past, partly because there was no place to cook. Taverns made giant pots of stew and prepared hearty meals for the whole day, and people would eat cheaply. I can imagine that in our cities (especially Allanak), where there isn't exactly farmland to spare. The taverns would sell cheap, really crappy stew or something, probably thickened up with inedible plant fiber or anything else that's cheaper than actual food.

What I can't feature at all is a place selling finger food like they do in modern bars. Potato skins and buffalo wings to go with your five dollar beer? Totally inappropriate.

Seconded. As a past byn runner, the cheapest thing in these taverns to get drunk is a 16 coins shot of whiskey in the Gaj. If you are making 50 sid for a block of obsidian, or 25 sid a contract you aren't going to spend all of it on a three shots if you still need to eat.  That's why travel cakes and flour are so popular.

If you want to see more people eating in taverns, stick a 3 sid bowl of slug in the gaj and a 4 sid glass of watered down ale. You'll see more people eating and drinking in the taverns.


[edit] As an aside, I think some of the farming village taverns have it down. There was one that I recall had a really grimy atmosphere and a downright barebones cheap menu.