Eating and Drinking at Taverns

[John]

This is something that has always bugged me. If all the VNPCs acted in taverns the way that PCs do, the taverns would be out of business. IMO people who go into a tavern buy food and/or drink. Now that can get fairly expensive so I don't expect us players to always do it.

But eating at a tavern with food you brought yourself, at the bar with the bartender watching you, surely this can't be considered good RP? Am I the only one that thinks it rather rude to sit in a tavern, refuse to order anything and then when I get hungry or thirsty popping out my own food and drink?

[Beux]

I'm thinking the taverns in Arm are more like taverns of the 'old days', where they were less strict business' and more just places where people gathered socially. Yeah, they'd probably buy a drink or two, but I doubt having their own food would be a problem, as most of the common population would be accepted as 'too poor' to buy 'expensive' food.

[Larrath]

Unless I'm playing a character that doesn't give a shit or is very poor, I avoid eating food or drinking water in a tavern that I did not purchase in the same tavern.
I don't buy food and water there, though, because the prices are ridiculously high.  It might actually make sense to lower them, since most taverns are supposed to cater to a broader, poorer population.

I want meals for 10 'sids!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree that food and drinks are way too much. A cup of ale, which doesn't quench your thirst, should be a few sid. Water should be the expensive thing, not brew. I should be able to play a drunk and not have a noble-house job.

[Cale_Knight]

Well, it would make zero sense for water to be more expensive than beer. Beer is water with a bunch of other stuff added to it.

I do agree that stuff in taverns is way too expensive, though.

[spawnloser]

I'm with Larrath.  I avoid eating or drinking in a tavern if I didn't pay for it there.

[Larrath]

Well, it would make zero sense for water to be more expensive than beer. Beer is water with a bunch of other stuff added to it.

When you sell water as water, people won't pay nearly as much if the water is dirty.  And since water is transparent, any dirt is very easy to detect.
Now, it's possible to take a barrel of water, bathe in it, and then brew it into beer.  Or wash your clothes (moderately wealthy Zalanthans and up most likely do that, particularly merchants), or use it for cooking or cleaning the apartment.

[Morfeus]

I -usually- avoid it too. I say usually because sometime... sometime I have IC reasons to do otherwise. I had a char who ate -only- fruits and spent hours and hours in one particular tavern. She would buy a drink at the bar and then eat her fruits. I don't think the bartender would care because she spent quite a lot of coin there on drinks. But usually I simply don't eat in taverns at all.

[Anonymous]

Well, it would make zero sense for water to be more expensive than beer. Beer is water with a bunch of other stuff added to it.

When you sell water as water, people won't pay nearly as much if the water is dirty.  And since water is transparent, any dirt is very easy to detect.
Now, it's possible to take a barrel of water, bathe in it, and then brew it into beer.  Or wash your clothes (moderately wealthy Zalanthans and up most likely do that, particularly merchants), or use it for cooking or cleaning the apartment.

Zalanthanian commoners don't do much bathing, from what I understand.

But if beer is made from tainted water, would YOU drink it? Knowing that it may have been used to wipe a baby's bottom first? Only out of pure desperation.

Also, if they're trying to pass the beer off as acceptable for consumption, they wouldn't lower the price.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, it would make zero sense for water to be more expensive than beer. Beer is water with a bunch of other stuff added to it.

Nonsense.  Theres places even today where beer is cheaper than drinkable water (the only alternative being nasty tap water).

Water goes bad, but the alcohol in beer is a preservative, hence why historically people in some places would quite often drink far more beer and ale than actual water.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I think the prices are a leftover from the time that one couldn't actually starve to death.

Very little of the food sold is really all that affordable, at least to people who aren't nobles aides and such. Even they probably don't buy food at the Silver Ginka very often.

[flaran]

I think that beer should cost less, personally.

[jcarter]

This is something that has always bugged me. If all the VNPCs acted in taverns the way that PCs do, the taverns would be out of business. IMO people who go into a tavern buy food and/or drink. Now that can get fairly expensive so I don't expect us players to always do it.

But eating at a tavern with food you brought yourself, at the bar with the bartender watching you, surely this can't be considered good RP? Am I the only one that thinks it rather rude to sit in a tavern, refuse to order anything and then when I get hungry or thirsty popping out my own food and drink?

That leaves us with two logical conclusions:

1)People should buy tavern food and eat it. At those prices, I don't see this happening.

2)People should stand, walk north, eat bread, walk south, sit. Just seems a little dumb to me.

If we want to get really anal about things, then it should also be considered bad form to even be sitting in a tavern without buying things. Why would the tavern owners even want those people in there, if they're just going to be taking up space?

In the end, taverns are one of those things were we suspend our disbelief.

[John]

2)People should stand, walk north, eat bread, walk south, sit. Just seems a little dumb to me.

That's exactly what I do. Although I'm a bit better then "n; eat cake; eat cake; eat cake; s." I'll go for a walk, look at a few stores.

In the end, taverns are one of those things were we suspend our disbelief.

I'm willing to suspend it to a degree for playability, but there's a line. IMO eating your own food in a tavern without buying anything crosses that line.

[Sephiroto]

I believe that the cost of food and such should be balanced considering that the cost of food has stayed the same even though:
:arrow:  Thirst and hunger values have been greatly increased over the past few years and...
:arrow:  The time bug was fixed which now means that Joe the Salarri Hunter still makes 300 coins an IC month but now that month takes twice as long RL

As it is poor Joe the Salarri Hunter can only afford to buy 10 of those 29'sid ales and not even have enough left to buy a sack of flour unless he's got a smooth tongue and can barter.

[jcarter]

In the end, taverns are one of those things were we suspend our disbelief.

I'm willing to suspend it to a degree for playability, but there's a line. IMO eating your own food in a tavern without buying anything crosses that line.[/quote]

How does taking a bite out of something cross the line but sitting and taking up space doesn't? Both have the same IC effect on the tavern: someone's taking up space and not bringing in any money. I'd expect the barkeeper to be just as likely to yell at the person taking up space as well as the person munching.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

2)People should stand, walk north, eat bread, walk south, sit. Just seems a little dumb to me.

That's exactly what I do. Although I'm a bit better then "n; eat cake; eat cake; eat cake; s." I'll go for a walk, look at a few stores.

In the end, taverns are one of those things were we suspend our disbelief.

I'm willing to suspend it to a degree for playability, but there's a line. IMO eating your own food in a tavern without buying anything crosses that line.

The Gaj even provides ovens and cooking pits for people to prepare their own food in. Doesn't that say something about the nature of the Zalanthanian tavern?

If you're in Trader's, then I agree. But not in the common person's bar.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Also, the taverns as they stand don't resemble a tavern in old England in that the food sold is presented as more as a tasty mouthful than a standard fare. Erdlu wings for 40 coins and an mostly empty stomach? Where is the bread, butter and a hunk of cheese, plus a bowl of dubious stew, or its Zalanthanian equivalent?

[John]

The Gaj even provides ovens and cooking pits for people to prepare their own food in. Doesn't that say something about the nature of the Zalanthanian tavern?

IMO the Gaj is only a small step above a 'rinthi bar (in fact the only reason it's a step above a 'rinthi bar is because it isn't located in the 'rinth). But yes, the Gaj is definitely an exception. But the Bard's Barrel? Try going to their kitchen and cook something, but make sure you wish up as you do.

[John]

How does taking a bite out of something cross the line but sitting and taking up space doesn't? Both have the same IC effect on the tavern: someone's taking up space and not bringing in any money. I'd expect the barkeeper to be just as likely to yell at the person taking up space as well as the person munching.

A playability line. Sorry I thought that was obvious. For playability sakes yeah, I ignore the fact most don't buy anything (most can't afford to). But when they flaunt it in the face of the bartender, then it seems a line has been crossed (IMO) that goes from ignoring something due to playability concerns and just flaunting your out of character behaviour (as IMO it is OOC to not buy anything in a tavern and just sit there, but is ignored for playabilities sake).

[jcarter]

How does taking a bite out of something cross the line but sitting and taking up space doesn't? Both have the same IC effect on the tavern: someone's taking up space and not bringing in any money. I'd expect the barkeeper to be just as likely to yell at the person taking up space as well as the person munching.

A playability line. Sorry I thought that was obvious. For playability sakes yeah, I ignore the fact most don't buy anything (most can't afford to). But when they flaunt it in the face of the bartender, then it seems a line has been crossed (IMO) that goes from ignoring something due to playability concerns and just flaunting your out of character behaviour (as IMO it is OOC to not buy anything in a tavern and just sit there, but is ignored for playabilities sake).

If someone was waving it around in front of the bar tender and going na na na, then why don't you just wish up about it?

[flurry]

Yeah, I've kind of favored the community center idea of taverns, rather than simply a business that expects you to buy something or get out.   That's not to say they won't ever get on your case for not spending money, but I think they'd be fairly laid back about it unless you annoyed them for some other reason.

I agree that, in most cases, the prices seem way too high, compared to what PCs get paid.   Are you going to spend 10% of your monthly pay on one drink?  Or maybe there just need to be more low end food/drink options in the taverns.

[Medena]

Regarding the Barrel and the Traders:

I figure the Barrel makes the most of its money from the gambling upstairs and then another chunk from kickbacks from its resident bard and other performers.  

The Traders probably makes a LOT of money from the rooms upstairs. And I'll bet the higher-class prostitutes who use them give a hefty kickback too.  And, actually, merchants do buy food and drink in there quite frequently. Nobles don't too much but why would they? They have far superior cooks and wine cellars back at their estates. And they probably figure they are doing the establishment a large favour by even being there.

[path]

If food and/or ale cost less in the bars and taverns, I would certainly buy my food and booze there more often, as at this point I don't.

Whether people should eat things they bring in themselves? I mean...I can't be the only one who sneaks cokes into movie theaters from time to time becauce I'm cheap. Heh heh. Sometimes I even bring a flask into bars. But regardless,  mainly I think this is a nit picking sort of thing.

I certainly don't think it's any kind of twinking and I do believe people should roleplay as well/deeply as they can/see fit and hope to raise the bar for others ingame.

The outside food issue can probably be rationalized in character in a way that satisfies me and I'm not going to go into the various reasons in which that situation could arise, as in my opinion they are manifold.

[Dalmeth]

Well, some people complain how independent commoners are often so rich.  It's because they buy the cheapest food and water available.

[Jherlen]

That argument doesn't work at all - clanned characters get food and water for free.

[Dalmeth]

Clanned characters have miniscule fixed incomes.  It explains it perfectly.

[Cuusardo]

I think part of the reason people aren't buying food at the tavern is because the overpriced food is not as filling as its cheaper, craftable counterparts.

And I'm sorry, but beer is not just water with stuff added.  Neither is wine.  Both of them also tend to dehydrate a person, unlike water.

[Tamarin]

The issue of tavern food being overpriced is not an isolated thing.  It is one component of the overall economic system of the game which is itself completely out of whack.  Changing the way food exists in the game would mean overhauling a bunch of other stuff as well.

I think it would be a good overhaul, mind you.  I just wish someone would take the time to study the economics and readjust things to make them more realistic.

[Cale_Knight]

And I'm sorry, but beer is not just water with stuff added.  Neither is wine.  Both of them also tend to dehydrate a person, unlike water.

Obviously. My point is that the ingredients it takes to make beer, wine, or even liquor are going to be much more expensive than a like amount of water, regardless of the actual physical effects of drinking it.

As for the arguments about using bathwater to brew beer... I'm fairly sure that simply wouldn't work. Even using a dirty bucket is likely to screw up the brewing process, let alone using filthy water.

[Jherlen]

Well, some people complain how independent commoners are often so rich.  It's because they buy the cheapest food and water available.

Independents are not rich because they're buying cheap food and water. It can't possibly be because of this, because clanned PCs get it even cheaper, and yet are not rich.

Independents are rich because you can make vastly more than 400 coins in 2 RL weeks, even after you take food expenses into account.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

Not to steer off course from the original situation presented in this thread, but I definitely agree that food and drink costs should be lowered.  It seems out of proportion to the economy.  I can go out and buy a weapon or armor for the same price I'd spend on an ale.  Given that water is a sparse commodity in this world, I still agree that it is out of proportion.

Now, as for eating in front of a bartender in his establishment?  Use discretion.  Whipping out a steak and ocotillo meal?  Naw.  Eating some fruit or some other trifle?  Don't see why they'd care.  You bring your dinner plate to a real bar, and you're likely to get booted.  But if you pull out a cookie, you might get a second look, but no more.

[John]

Independents are rich because you can make vastly more than 400 coins in 2 RL weeks, even after you take food expenses into account.

If they didn't eat the cheapest food (which I personally believe many PCs do) they wouldn't be as rich though.

[Ghost]

In one of the stories in Armageddon website, a patron complains why the ale is 3 sid that night.  He says he only has 4 sids.

Something that made me curious though.  That is exactly what should happen in zalanthas.  Ale should be much much cheaper (like 3 sid) and you should be able to be a drunk beggar even if you can't afford water.

[Nao]

And I'm sorry, but beer is not just water with stuff added.  Neither is wine.  Both of them also tend to dehydrate a person, unlike water.

As for the arguments about using bathwater to brew beer... I'm fairly sure that simply wouldn't work. Even using a dirty bucket is likely to screw up the brewing process, let alone using filthy water.

It was done and it worked just fine - stuff tasted horribly but people bought it anyway - I can clean, pure watewr being really expensive and the less quality stuff being used to make cheap beer - this would fit just great into the Gaj.

[veryalien]

Fix spice and tavern prices. In commoner areas everything should be 10 sids or less. It costs twenty sid to keep my kank stabled indefinetly.

Make PC templars and militia kick out grubby sand travellers from nice places that are expensive.

[veryalien]

Independents are not rich because they're buying cheap food and water. It can't possibly be because of this, because clanned PCs get it even cheaper, and yet are not rich.

Independents are rich because you can make vastly more than 400 coins in 2 RL weeks, even after you take food expenses into account.

This should probably be a topic on its own. Independants risk more than clanned PCs who get a fixed salary to remain within the confines of civilization. If you're being sent out to travel a lot start asking for cuts from the profits.

This is very similar to the way long distance trading took place in renaissance Europe and medieval Asia.

[Fnord]

My feeling is that taverns should carry a wider range of prices. Cheap food (couple sid) should be gross. Expensive food should be nicer. (That way it can be a money sink for anyone of any financial bracket, yay imms!)

Certain taverns would carry a range from cheap to expensive. Other places would only have cheap or expensive, so you knew what kind of crowds to expect. Want to mingle with everyone? Go to the Barrel. Want crass fun, go to the Gaj. Want to get away from broke dicks, go to the Trader's.

If things were structured in such a way, nobody would have an excuse to be loitering and never drinking or eating.

[Alamos]

Most of my characters when they visit a tavern will feel some obligation of patronage.  This is because they probably realize that tavernkeepers have some expectation of business.  Therefore, I will usually throw down some coins for a drink or two.  In these taverns that are often busy and crowded, it's the equivalent of 'paying' for your seat when you would otherwise get your ass thrown out to make space for a potential customer.  It's like a day pass.

As for buying food in taverns, if you've ever had to cook or forage for three meals a day, every week, you might find it quickly becomes more than a small annoyance.  As such, my characters will occassionally treat themselves to a prepared meal at a tavern if only to have some respite from slicing and dicing and burning and baking.  In this case, you're paying for convenience.  And sometimes, heck, your character just has a thing for this one dish at Amos's Chaltonhouse.  What's his recipe???

Now, the topic of prices is a bit trickier.  The more my characters struggle to collect the bare necessities, the more I tend to enjoy playing them.  A good day for me is when my character is forced to choose between a pissy ale, a gulp of water, or a (mostly) roasted tuber, and ends up going for one more pinch of spice instead.  I realize that sort of style is not meant for everyone.  I also realize price inflation is not necessarily the best way to reach a gritty environment.  That being said, I think everyone who hasn't closely read the documentation on Senate proposals in Allanak might find some clues as to why ale simply isn't being sold at cost + markup.  Perhaps it's as much as an IC issue as it is an OOC one?

[Aldiel]

This is something that has always bugged me. If all the VNPCs acted in taverns the way that PCs do, the taverns would be out of business. IMO people who go into a tavern buy food and/or drink. Now that can get fairly expensive so I don't expect us players to always do it.

But eating at a tavern with food you brought yourself, at the bar with the bartender watching you, surely this can't be considered good RP? Am I the only one that thinks it rather rude to sit in a tavern, refuse to order anything and then when I get hungry or thirsty popping out my own food and drink?

Dude, this is a really good point, although I think if I ate food every time I went to the bar, I'd be out of my 300 sid a month paycheck in less than a week.

On a serious note though, I would like to try eating and drinking more when I'm at a tavern since that's really what it's about.  I just never really thought about it, honestly.  This post made me think.  I like posts like this that remind me how I can be a better RPer.

[Saphreal]

And sometimes, heck, your character just has a thing for this one dish at Amos's Chaltonhouse.  What's his recipe???

Feck, ya, I can't do without my spicy tandu wings!

[Anonymous kank with wings]

If you're looking for a really excellent way to keep people out of taverns, demanding that they buy something every time they show up is it.

[John]

If you're looking for a really excellent way to keep people out of taverns, demanding that they buy something every time they show up is it.

Which wasn't what I said at all.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

If you're looking for a really excellent way to keep people out of taverns, demanding that they buy something every time they show up is it.

Which wasn't what I said at all.

No, but you didn't offer a solution either, other than the implicit "hahaha I get to call you a twink for eating your own food in a tavern!".  :lol:

[John]

If you're looking for a really excellent way to keep people out of taverns, demanding that they buy something every time they show up is it.

Which wasn't what I said at all.

No, but you didn't offer a solution either, other than the implicit "hahaha I get to call you a twink for eating your own food in a tavern!".  :lol:

When hungry either a) buy something from the tavern or b) go outside and eat (although standing outside the tavern door is just tacky. Pretend you have an errand to run. Perhaps go to another tavern for a while. Perhaps go do whatever your job is. Leave the tavern for whatever reason and on your way to wherever, eat and drink).

[Anonymous kank with wings]

If you're looking for a really excellent way to keep people out of taverns, demanding that they buy something every time they show up is it.

Which wasn't what I said at all.

No, but you didn't offer a solution either, other than the implicit "hahaha I get to call you a twink for eating your own food in a tavern!".  :lol:

When hungry either a) buy something from the tavern or b) go outside and eat (although standing outside the tavern door is just tacky. Pretend you have an errand to run. Perhaps go to another tavern for a while. Perhaps go do whatever your job is. Leave the tavern for whatever reason and on your way to wherever, eat and drink).

Ah, so you do want people to buy their food in the tavern. Since we both agree that eating out on the street, especially in the middle of a raging sandstorm, is rather tacky, and given that a lot of characters don't necessarily have a home to go to. Not to mention the difficulty of holding a normal conversation among several different people each at their own point on the relentless hunger and thirst countdown. "Excuse me, Bob, but I have to walk across the city to eat this travelcake before I faint with hunger. I'll be back in two hours".  :lol:

Sorry, but it doesn't work. Can we dismiss the issue now?

[John]

Since we both agree that eating out on the street, especially in the middle of a raging sandstorm, is rather tacky, and given that a lot of characters don't necessarily have a home to go to. Not to mention the difficulty of holding a normal conversation among several different people each at their own point on the relentless hunger and thirst countdown. "Excuse me, Bob, but I have to walk across the city to eat this travelcake before I faint with hunger. I'll be back in two hours".  :lol:

Sorry, but it doesn't work. Can we dismiss the issue now?

No. Because I do do this. It's called playing the role. If I'm so poor I can't afford an apartment (and I'm unclanned) I'll roleplay being poor. I'll roleplay being homeless. That means having to suffer the difficulties in being homeless. And there are always narrow alleyways (check the direction of the wind, then head to an alleyway that has a wall blocking the direction the wind's coming from). If you can't tell the direction, pick a narrow alleyway and just go there. Go in the receess of a doorway. Go "window shopping" and eat while you enter stalls and tents. Interrupting a conversation is an unfortunate consequence. It's called roleplaying.

I prefer actually roleplaying my circumstances rather then just ignoring the virtual and NPC world of the game.

[Alamos]

I believe, like John, that this is an issue that can be solved with the notorious creativity a desperate, poor, and hungry individual possesses without comprimising gameplay by completely 'dismissing' the unfortunate consequences of a filthy life or ignoring the likely preferences of a tavern owner.

My practical suggestion would be not to insult players when they do eat or drink their own supply in a tavern (or, for that matter, dissuade them from discussing the subject on this forum), but to provide example to others with displays of creative roleplaying; which is what this thread should also function as - a discussion of methods seeking harmony with the environment, rather than forgoing it.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

No. Because I do do this. It's called playing the role. If I'm so poor I can't afford an apartment (and I'm unclanned) I'll roleplay being poor. I'll roleplay being homeless. That means having to suffer the difficulties in being homeless. And there are always narrow alleyways (check the direction of the wind, then head to an alleyway that has a wall blocking the direction the wind's coming from). If you can't tell the direction, pick a narrow alleyway and just go there. Go in the receess of a doorway. Go "window shopping" and eat while you enter stalls and tents. Interrupting a conversation is an unfortunate consequence. It's called roleplaying.

I prefer actually roleplaying my circumstances rather then just ignoring the virtual and NPC world of the game.

Well, I don't accept this position in this particular context, because it's too unworkable. My opinion is that if the bartender or someone else takes issue with my character eating a travelcake in his tavern, he'll get a snappy retort along the lines of "What th' feck? When this place starts offurin' some food at a price a common feck can affurd, then I'sle start feckin' buying it! Fur Krath's sakes, what yur complainin' for? Yur already got all the 'sid I can spare on yur kank-piss ale this month anyhow. And if I ain't here and my friend Bob comes by, well, he'll just leave rather then buying yur kank-piss ale either! And look around, ain't like there's 'xactly a lack of seats to plant some butts in! Krath, just get out of my face."

Give us a "two penny ordinary" to buy at taverns and then I'll agree with you on this.

[Alamos]

Now, as for eating in front of a bartender in his establishment?  Use discretion.  Whipping out a steak and ocotillo meal?  Naw.  Eating some fruit or some other trifle?  Don't see why they'd care.

This seems fair.

[Nightstring]

If I've missed something and somebody has already made this point, then just ignore this.

Isn't it the case that you don't get hungry or thirsty while you're logged out? You don't have to pay for food or drink that your character is virtually eating to stay alive. With this in mind, it is my opinion that high food prices are 'even Steven', so to speak.

Digression:
Of course, this is mildly exploitable: you could log in just to work and get a profit, then log out as soon as you are done to minimize your losses from having to feed your character as much... but requiring that players check on their characters like some kind of tamagotchi to feed them is hardly plausible.. so you have the system we have in place now for playability reasons.

To digress even further: I think that, while it is important to minimize the amount of jarringly unrealistic 'glitches' in the fabric of Zalanthan reality.. you must draw a line somewhere and apply suspension of disbelief and just turn a blind eye.

Trying to make Armageddon as realistic as any reality, even one taking place in a fantasy world, is like squaring the circle.. you can get close, but it's just a MUD, so you can only get so close. To add an unnecessary and possibly obnoxious example: Even the Matrix from that gratuitously overrated sci-fi trilogy had glitches in its reality, and I doubt even the most complex MUD code is even comparable to whatever it is that *that* runs on.

[spawnloser]

Anonymous Kank With Wings, I wouldn't be surprised if your characters get kicked out of taverns.  Your character is too poor to eat at the tavern?  Get the fuck out.  Go somewhere s/he can afford to eat when you're hungry.

Ignoring the realism of the owner/operator of an eatery potentially getting upset when you bring outside food?  Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Anonymous Kank With Wings, I wouldn't be surprised if your characters get kicked out of taverns.  Your character is too poor to eat at the tavern?  Get the fuck out.  Go somewhere s/he can afford to eat when you're hungry.

Ignoring the realism of the owner/operator of an eatery potentially getting upset when you bring outside food?  Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

*AKwW buzzes her wings in momentary irritation*

Firstly, did I say anywhere that my character eats in taverns? I gave a RP example for a fictitious character.

Secondly, I think this issue is simply an example of going over the top concerning what I call "mechanical RP". This is where people focus on trying to detail every little physical aspect of themselves and their environments. It adds color when used sparingly but frankly beyond that it just becomes pointless. Is it really that important to detail that that seat creaks when you sit down in it for the fifteenth time? Or to indicate that, to smile, you pull your lips upward at the edges? Or that you dip your head to perform a nod?

Mechanical RP has its place but I'd really rather concentrate on the core of RP, which is character development and interaction, and I'm going to find a lot more of that by staying in the tavern than ducking out to eat furtively under a shop awning over some, to be honest, bullshit technicality.

Let me ask you this, too. If you're so concerned about mechanical RP, do you visit the Jal pipes every four or five hours, drop your drawers and emote taking a crap? There are just places where one draws the line, and this is one of them.

Thirdly, I would say a strong case has been made that it would not be unreasonable for people to eat their own food in taverns. It's a dirt poor society and the tavern prices do not reflect that. Rather than going through contortions to get around this, I'm going to say that obviously on Zalanthas, bringing your own food into a tavern is OK. They're more than happy enough to collect your 'sid now and then when you can afford it, as well as that of your friends that you draw in. It's worked perfectly well since the mud opened and I see no reason to change now unless some cheap food is introduced.

[Cale_Knight]

Seriously, wouldn't you be upset if you owned a restaurant (no matter how much the menu items are priced at) and someone walked in with a picnic basket and started eating?  Assume the tavern- and inn-keepers in game would have a similar reaction.

I would be, if I were the owner of the local Olive Garden. Maybe not so much if I owned Joe's Tavern, a medieval establishment in a post-apocolyptic desert world.

You really, really can't compare the two cultures.

[Quirk]

Secondly, I think this issue is simply an example of going over the top concerning what I call "mechanical RP". This is where people focus on trying to detail every little physical aspect of themselves and their environments. It adds color when used sparingly but frankly beyond that it just becomes pointless.

To wander off-topic for a moment, I actually appreciate a lot of this. Why? Because I use look sparingly, and I never read mdescs in any detail. I skim them, trying to find a notable feature or two, but usually I've just got to the line about "her olive-skinned cheeks have a delicate roseate hue" when the screen's scrolling and I go down to respond to an emote or say, and in the course of so doing I forget about 90% of what I just read. You could give me a line-up of character faces that my character RPs with regularly, and the only way I'd be able to pick any of them apart is via the sdesc.

So, I rely largely on people filling in the gaps for me to get my immersion. The dude who reminds me he's wearing a drab cloak and lets me know there are some gaping holes in it has my gratitude. The old woman who every now and then lets me know that her nose would be no disgrace to a mid-sized eagle is doing me a favour, particularly if she's neglected to mention it in her sdesc. My picture of them is otherwise going to be that bit hazier, and if they never fill in those details, I might as well be in a chatroom. And - I forget. If you've not mentioned how your long hair blows in the wind to me, specifically, in the past week, I'm probably at the stage where I've mostly forgotten just how long it is.

And this goes doubly for the more unusual things they might choose to do. I especially hate seeing someone cast magick without throwing out at least one or two emotes to describe what they're doing, and what the result is. Even if it's the same thing they always do, it really helps me visualise the scene in a way I won't (and often can't, through insufficient information) if they leave it to my imagination. Besides, I have to restrict my imagination; giving it free reign often leads me to think of what they've just done in a way different from the way they've thought of it in their head, and when those differences come to light, they're jarring.

Is it really that important to detail that that seat creaks when you sit down in it for the fifteenth time? Or to indicate that, to smile, you pull your lips upward at the edges? Or that you dip your head to perform a nod?

Ah, the tugging lips, the dipping head. Yes. These are seen way too often, largely because people find themselves stuck for synonyms when relating their character's body language during a conversation. It sounds horridly stilted. But the two alternatives are scarcely more pleasant: divorce the body language from the conversation, which can really hurt your ability to get across the tone you're trying to convey, or render your victims speedily sick of the words "nod" and "smile", especially in conjunction with overused adverbs and modifiers.

As regards taverns, though, I think the food and drink is heavily overpriced. You can spend a hundred sid or more in many a tavern and not fill your belly - and don't get me started on the price of water. Most of us don't want to have to devote so much of our game time to making money that we can afford to live off tavern food. (And no, you don't have to pay to eat while logged out. You aren't earning any sid while logged out, either, unless you're on a salary, and most of the time if you're on a salary you also get free food.)

Of course, it's barely cheaper to have a cooking habit. If a dish requires you to purchase fifty sids' worth of ingredients to end up with what looks like a very modest bit of home cooking, is it any wonder that most cooks stick to the cheapest and most basic dishes they can make?

Ah, but what about the hunters? The price has to stay high for them to be able to make a living, right? Well, given how many creatures several times their size they have to slay to get a full belly, I'd suggest that maybe, just maybe, it would make sense for hunting to produce more (and cheaper) meat?

When filling my belly on tavern grub costs significantly less than eight or nine weeks' wages for an artisan in a Merchant House, sure, I'll be eating there. Until then, I don't see the set-up as realistic, and I'll be eating only the occasional dish for the purposes of RP colour; and because I don't see the food set-up as in any way mirroring realism, I will have no shame in eating my own food there, unless it's a really very high-class joint and overblown prices might make some kind of sense.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm with Quirk. Paint your world. Don't draw stick figures.

[spawnloser]

Oh, winged one...you said if you were given flack by tavern-keepers about eating your own food instead of there offerings, you would respond with some belligerant sass back.  To that I responded with my thoughts on a character of yours being kicked from a tavern.

Secondly, there is a difference between doing something while ignoring the RP and simply not roleplaying a certain aspect of real life that is not represented in the game to begin with.  Oh, and yes, I've had my characters go to evacuate bladder or bowel before, a few times.  The usual condition is that my character is getting piss drunk.  Reasons for this?  First, when drinking, you're bringing in fluid that's gotta go somewhere.  Second, it's more entertaining for the people around my character when s/he announces and then goes stumbling out and is gone for half an hour IG.  See, I do it when it is appropriate for my character and when it is appropriate for the story.

Now, just so we're clear, I'm not saying you can't eat in a tavern.  I'm saying that eating a full on meal instead of a snack is RUDE to the person running the joint and I would be fully in support of that person coming down on someone that pulls such.  I'm saying that ignoring the possibility that the owner/operator would get mad isn't so great.  I'm saying that your character getting belligerant when confronted by the owner (a scenario that you introduced) is starting to get militant in the direction of eating what you want when you want damn the realism.  I'm saying that there is a middle ground of realism...which doesn't require eating nothing unless purchased at the bar, but also doesn't allow people eating full meals imported.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I'm saying that eating a full on meal instead of a snack

Alright. I can live with people being limited to snacks in the taverns then.

[mangler]

I've got a couple point to make:

1) Earlier, some people were saying that beer is make of dirty water, bathwater, whatever, but if it was, the stuff would taste like piss, my father is an experienced brewer, and i've learnt a few tricks, and you simply can't make beer with dirty water, if you did, then why doesn't it say, when you take a sip from that 20 'sid mug of ale:
"This ale tastes like beggars piss."

and...

2) Also, what the tread was originaly about, reminded me of another thread, about having a PC bartender, I though that was a good idea at the time, but now it could be even more usful, as he could kick out people who just sit there all day sipping on their muddy water, and chewing at their travel cake.

[joyofdiscord]

Oh geez, not this argument again.  Would it be -so- hard to go looking for old threads where these issues were already addressed?  I mean, c'mon, sjanimal had this same complaint two years ago.  And John, you've been around since at least two years before that thread was made.  I can remember at least one thread since then with the same gripe, and probably a second one, too.

Just so everyone remembers (because I remember these sort of things and I hate when the same misconceptions have to get cleared up over and over again because people just can't resist flinging accusations of twinkery at other players, accusations based on ideas firmly rooted in the real world and not Zalanthas), here is Xygax's response from the above linked thread:

To some degree, I think the concept of taverns on Zalanthas is a bit different from what it is in modern-day western society. The owners of these taverns don't expect every occupant of the tavern to be a paying customer. In fact, the people in these taverns may be conducting their own business... for a tavern owner, though, even the non-paying customers can be profitable, since they likely bring other customers by who -will- buy things, by virtue of their simply being there.

Furthermore, some of the lower-quality taverns are as much "public houses" as they are taverns, and so not only expect customers to being laying about half-dead and half-drunk (or at least generally motionless), but in fact largely exist for that purpose (at least they aren't clogging up a central "financial artery" like Caravan Road).

-- X

You guys are confusing the Gaj and the Barrel with Ponderosa and Applebees.  Comparisons to RL restaurants are bad, bad, bad, wrong!!  They are not valid, for a myriad of reasons.  I suspect that income from food and drinks would represent a relatively small chunk of a tavern's total income.  Come on guys, you've all been around Zalanthas long enough to suspect what -really- goes on in these taverns.  

The bartender and servers are probably busy subtly listening in on your conversations to sell you out to the Templarate, the Guild, or whoever is paying.  That slimeball rinther in the corner who never buys anything?  Guess what, he's probably bribing the bartender to look the other way while he finds buyers for spice in the tavern.  My characters, especially criminal types, have bribed NPC bartenders regularly, and I find it hard to believe that no VNPC criminal has thought of the same thing.  Some of my bribes have been more than all other PCs probably spent in that bar all together over a couple IC days.  Guess whose business that bartender probably valued more, travel cakes or no.  Crooked (or semi-legit) gambling, con games, prostitution, all this is probably common in lower-class taverns (which I define to include the Bard's Barrel), and the tavern surely gets its cut of the action one way or another.

Now, if someone is actively causing trouble in the tavern -and- not buying anything, that could be a problem.  I've seen IMMs animate the bartender to make that abundantly clear on those occasions when it has happened.  Seriously, though, if someone is causing trouble, the 20 sid they laid down on ale is not going to keep them in anyone's good favor.

2) Also, what the tread was originaly about, reminded me of another thread, about having a PC bartender, I though that was a good idea at the time, but now it could be even more usful, as he could kick out people who just sit there all day sipping on their muddy water, and chewing at their travel cake.

Your PC bartender would quickly become a pauper.  You -really- want to stifle the kind of business that PCs bring when they congregate in taverns, as PCs are apt to do, and instead concentrate on selling 12 sid ales that probably make you 6 sid profit, tops?  Uhmm... sure... whatever makes you happy I guess.  I just hope your ale brings in enough money to pay off the Templarate when they come knocking.

[Tisiphone]

There's a simple solution. Play an asshole who doesn't care if the bartender gets offended.  

[Morfeus]

To be honest, I always compared Zalanthian taverns with pubs we 'build' for our historical fencing actions (no, they are not the same as you have in US. But that is not my point). So, lets say, the bartender comes and builds up a tent in which he provides some food and lot of drinks. People come and go. Some people buy some food and drinks, some don't. Some people come just to chat a bit. Some of them come with things they want to sell to look if there is anyone interested. Some even bring own bottles. Why the bartender doesn't care? Because having all that people seated there and coming to do business and meets their friends into his tent raise the possibility they will buy his food and drinks. If he gets annoying, we would take our drinks/food/wares/friends and go sit elsewhere, outside, for example. There is strong possibility we will drink less that way, because going back to the tent to buy a drink means leaving your friends, chats and business for a moment and walking back to the annoying bartender. Yes, we -still- would buy drinks from him. But he will gain less.
I agree that this discussion is too much about irl restaurants. I still would buy food from bartender in Barrel, unless I have reason not to. The fact I am coinless is IMHO valid reason not to buy anything - but why would be the bartender angry? I might have friends with money or customers with money or I might gain more next month or I serve that Important person or... or...
All IMHO, of course.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Bing bing bing Morfeus. Agree totally.

And cheap food? Hell yeah! In a world where water is scarce, why would my food cost more than my ale?

And why is ale less expensive than water? In real life, cheap beer is 'watered down' but in Zalanthas, what if cheap ale was '[other ingrediant]ed down' ? I had this discussion with someone once, and I think we came up with the conclusion that Zalanthan ale was probably real thick with other ingrediants so they could use as little water as possible.

[creeper386]

Obviously. My point is that the ingredients it takes to make beer, wine, or even liquor are going to be much more expensive than a like amount of water, regardless of the actual physical effects of drinking it.

You have expensive water. You add in cheaper ingredient which end up increasing the volume of liquid you then have. You then sell it. The price of the cheaper ingrediants DOES help lower the price.

And alot of places, a bottled water is more then a beer. The water is pure, the beer is diluted water. It may not have a large percentage of other stuff in it, but it does have more then water in it.


Creeper

[Marauder Moe]

Beer was/is cheaper than water because without modern storage materials, water goes bad.  The alcohol in beer acts as a preservative.

[House Rising Sun]

Extremely poor people living in tiny apartments in densely populated cities haven't been able to cook for themselves at times in the past, partly because there was no place to cook. Taverns made giant pots of stew and prepared hearty meals for the whole day, and people would eat cheaply. I can imagine that in our cities (especially Allanak), where there isn't exactly farmland to spare. The taverns would sell cheap, really crappy stew or something, probably thickened up with inedible plant fiber or anything else that's cheaper than actual food.

What I can't feature at all is a place selling finger food like they do in modern bars. Potato skins and buffalo wings to go with your five dollar beer? Totally inappropriate.

[jmordetsky]

Extremely poor people living in tiny apartments in densely populated cities haven't been able to cook for themselves at times in the past, partly because there was no place to cook. Taverns made giant pots of stew and prepared hearty meals for the whole day, and people would eat cheaply. I can imagine that in our cities (especially Allanak), where there isn't exactly farmland to spare. The taverns would sell cheap, really crappy stew or something, probably thickened up with inedible plant fiber or anything else that's cheaper than actual food.

What I can't feature at all is a place selling finger food like they do in modern bars. Potato skins and buffalo wings to go with your five dollar beer? Totally inappropriate.

Seconded. As a past byn runner, the cheapest thing in these taverns to get drunk is a 16 coins shot of whiskey in the Gaj. If you are making 50 sid for a block of obsidian, or 25 sid a contract you aren't going to spend all of it on a three shots if you still need to eat.  That's why travel cakes and flour are so popular.

If you want to see more people eating in taverns, stick a 3 sid bowl of slug in the gaj and a 4 sid glass of watered down ale. You'll see more people eating and drinking in the taverns.


[edit] As an aside, I think some of the farming village taverns have it down. There was one that I recall had a really grimy atmosphere and a downright barebones cheap menu.