Something to Think about During the War

[Pantoufle]

Fine, point taken.  We likely agree more than we disagree on the subject but our different choice in wording leads to miscommunication.  But try to understand, it's hard not to react when one considers the following.

Please, I'm really not trying to be rude

I don't give a flying fuck

Anyway, moving forward.  The root of this entire discussion centers around the difficulty of maintaining fear in an increased surrounding of magick.  When insisting we RP out our fears more, one must always consider the age old adage: You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed. Sure, there's hundreds of years of fear and superstition, and sure, Allanak thrives on this, but every culture gradually ends up accepting the outcasts. Either that or it kicks them out.

Rappers are the biggest selling music stars in America. Skateboarders have a bleeding channel on TV. Goths have highly patronized stores called 'Hot Topic'.

I'm just saying, it wouldn't be outside the realms of IC believability for mages to become more 'acceptable' in Allanak. On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.

[Ghost]

Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

Magickers' being the heroes of a battle is actually quite acceptable.  Each one has much more powerful than a mundane soldier right, and each one can crush enemies and enemy moral and switch the balance of the tides.  So what is wrong with hearing something like "Allanak has won because of the mages!!!" I would not picture it in any other way already.

[Morrolan]

That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.

Agreed.  When this all shakes out in Allanak, and the Mages are told to go back to their quarter with a pat on the back, or blamed for the loss of the war, or whatever, THEN we will see if anything has changed.

Anyone interested in such things can look up the book Ceremony by Leslie Mormon Silko.  It's about a Native American who comes home from WWII a war hero, and is suddenly "just an Indian" again.

We'll see what happens...

Morrolan

[Dre]

On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.

**Crosses his fingers and giggles like a school girl** :twisted:

Unfortunately to do it properly it would have to be ICly sponsored by a templar and done with the OOC approval and support of an imm.

[jhunter]

On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.

**Crosses his fingers and giggles like a school girl** :twisted:

Unfortunately to do it properly it would have to be ICly sponsored by a templar and done with the OOC approval and support of an imm.

And hopefully it wouldn't turn into this unrealistic scramble of sword-toting jackasses scrambling to join. Their motto should be:

The few, the psychotic, The Magehunters.

[cyberpatrol_735]

To those in the 'nakki camp, good job.

I play/played, won't say which a magicker, and people were afraid of me consistantly.. then again, I'm just a scary fuck, but.. get my point?

I'm with halaster on this one.

[Kank who walks alone]

Personally? And this is just me....

While I'd really hate to see the Allanaki forces lose, I think a lot of the issue is the cooperation.

The reason that I've always feared the gemmed hoarde is because they are unpredictable, uncontrolled, and they can do things that I have absolutely no defenses against. In a world where just about anyone will stab you in the back to get some bread, that's a terrifying concept.

Furthermore, familiarity does breed contempt. Not knowing what a witch can or can't do is a big part of it. "I need your true name to assist you." "Never! You'll capture me into a glass bottle for seven eternities!" When you see what they do every day, and most of it isn't harmful, but helpful, it's hard to be really afraid of them anymore. There are only so many times you can yell "aaaaaah!" and act frightened of the same thing.

An unforeseen result of the HRPT war has been that people are... well... cooperating. To the exclusion of intrigue in a lot of cases. This is apparent on the mundane side, too. People are too worried about who is going to win the war to consider intrigue against their fellow man or the overall forces. The mages know, if the Tuluki's win, they're going to be extinct - or practically so when you consider what life is like if both citystates are off limits.

So there's no real reason to fear them unless you're in the enemy army (whichever that might be). And even then, you have to assume that the others are like the ones you know. If the gemmed in the forces had more apparent personal agendas instead of seeming like they're the well kept pets of the templarate and/or nobility who are just as eager to please and obey as the average swordsman pulled into the ranks, there would be much less reason to appreciate them.

[jhunter]

Furthermore, familiarity does breed contempt. Not knowing what a witch can or can't do is a big part of it. "I need your true name to assist you." "Never! You'll capture me into a glass bottle for seven eternities!"

I still disagree with the average Joe Commoner knowing that a "true name" is anything of importance to a magicker.

[Cegar]

War breeds strange bedfellows.

Or something like that.

[SpyGuy]

Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed. Sure, there's hundreds of years of fear and superstition, and sure, Allanak thrives on this, but every culture gradually ends up accepting the outcasts. Either that or it kicks them out.

That was a point I made and I agree with you mostly.  It very well might happen and if Allanak wins because of mages, and everyone from camp comes back with an attitude of mage acceptance and that infects a new generation of PCs then the game world very well may need to change because of that.  The game world changing because of PC actions is not a bad thing.

You seem to be attacking my post like I said it was some horrible thing for magicker relations to change, I didn't.  I still don't think I'd like to see it change though.  The vast majority of my post was to give people, leaders and grunts alike, ideas for how to use mages without them becoming heroes.

In the end I'll say this, to call a mage a hero is not only putting them on an equal basis but it also praises that individual.  To call the mages of the war heroes implies that all gemmed mages have equal use and validity in Allanaki society.  The traditional view of mages in Allanak, as I see it, is that to the templarate they're useful tools to be controlled, to most nobles they're a fearful unknown and to commoners they're unknown, terrifying and more likely to curse you than help you.  If that traditional view is changing then more power to it.

This discussion is good.  I really hope people on the frontlines don't take this as severe criticism though, most people I've seen have interacted well and done a great job.  But discrimination is part of what makes Arm feel real and gritty, my posts have merely been to try to promote more discrimination or ways to discriminate that reflect the typical views of Allanak.  Mages coming back as heroes will change things, a lot.  But that's certainly not a given and I'm interested to see what exactly happens in the end.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If the gemmed in the forces had more apparent personal agendas instead of seeming like they're the well kept pets of the templarate and/or nobility who are just as eager to please and obey as the average swordsman pulled into the ranks, there would be much less reason to appreciate them.

I'll agree with that, but I'd also add that it is highly likely that most of them are eager to please and obey. They are citizens just like you and I, from an OOC viewpoint.

Spyguy, I was in no way attacking your points. I was using that statement as a crux for my post. I didn't misread your contribution to the thread.

[jstorrie]

Tulukis - especially many of those who volunteered to join the front lines - are often fanatical about Muk Utep. When you're standing right next to a famed, powerful Faithful Lord or Lady, it's not unreasonable to summon up a little courage and have faith that they'll protect you.

Most of the Tuluki PCs I have seen are playing appropriately around magic: scared silly of magick when templars aren't around, biting the bullet and putting their faith in friend templars when they are. There have been a few exceptions but I don't think it's quite as bad as some may think: many may just be putting on a brave face while they would still freeze up when actually presented with a magickal threat. That said, any Allanaki magicker who shows vulnerability near a teeming mass of Tuluki troops should expect to get shanked. At least one of the dozens will grit his teeth and charge, it's just a matter of odds, and the mob mentality is a great source of temporary courage. Further, anyone should expect that in a situation like this the Tuluki templarate would turn around and downplay the magicker threat in order to keep their troops from fleeing from the face of every battle.

I can't speak for the Allanaki side as I haven't observed them.

[Boggis]

Veterans of this war could conceivably come back with an even greater fear of magick than they had prior to the war. Most people in Allanak never see magick during their day-to-day life and probably never will. Gemmers are there wandering around the city but they're on a leash and you don't see any public displays from them generally. In Tuluk virtually everybody never sees magick ever. Sure they hate and despise it but it's not in their face and most citizens will go through their lives without ever seeing any and be delighted to do so. For people in both city-states magick is the realm of superstition and rumour which, while scary, won't actually harm you. Possibly anyway. Soldiers on both sides, however, get to see magick right up in their face, get to see -precisely- how bad it can be. Nakki soldiers get to see the beneficial side sure but they also get to see what happens when nice Liv the Viv who healed up Malik's leg wound neat as you like the other day suddenly shows the other side to their power and draws down some horrible magicks on people. In my opinion, the rumour that Uncle Amos' house burned down because he looked at a Krathi funny isn't quite as scary as actually seeing a Krathi set ten men on fire with a flick of his wrist.

This doesn't mean that soldiers on both sides can't push through this fear. Many humans can and will adapt to terrifying situations and shut down their fear to an extent to get themselves through it. In WWI men went over the top and advanced on machine gun emplacements over and over again for years. It had to be terrifying every time but they did it despite it appearing insane to us now. Whether it was a belief in their cause, a desire to not let down their comrades, a fear of what punishment lay behind them if they did not advance or whatever they managed it. I can see soldiers from both city-states getting on with the job in front of them in an attempt to survive but this kind of tortuous punishment of a person's fears takes it toll psychologically and they usually end up paying for it sooner or later (especially if the war continues for any length of time). Perhaps when back home in Tuluk even the thought of magick could bring back all the terrible magicks they saw inflicted upon their comrades. Or when back in Nak a gemmer sits down beside them in a tavern - they know full well that should that gemmer wish it they could incinerate half the bar in the blink of an eye. I can see quite a few jittery veterans being even more wary of magick instead of being inured against it once the hostilities are over.

This could also have an even further negative effect on mages in Nak as, if successful in the war, they may come home expecting praise or acceptance for it but in fact may suffer even more hostility, fear and suspicion because of their actions. Before they were the stories of superstition and half of them were relatively benign but now people might hear veterans mutter of the time the Rukkian opened up the earth that swallowed half a unit or the Whiran that lifted fifteen men into the sky easy as you like and let them fall back to earth and people will know that such a story is quite likely to be true. Might make the general populace even more uncomfortable being around them and make mages bitter towards the public who don't appreciate how they too bled for Nak.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Another excellent senario.

[jhunter]

I was thinking the same thing while reading that post.

[jstorrie]

Something as eventful as a full on magick-fueled war will be interpreted many different ways. Soldiers who were the victims of magickal attacks may fear them more and have flashbacks, or instead having survived them, feel invincible; soldiers whose friends were killed by magickers/foreign templars (and we all know the other city's templars are just well-dressed finger-waggler witches, right?) may hate them even more; soldiers (on the Tuluki side especially) who had the good luck to only be present for failed magickal attacks may find them demystified and less threatening. Magickers may feel entitled or disenfranchised. Allanaki soldiers may look up to magickers for being heroes, resent them for stealing the glories of battle, or feel ashamed that their templars used such foul forces as tools of war.

Don't paint in too broad of strokes is all I'm saying.

[SpyGuy]

Another excellent senario.

Totally, good points Boggis.  Hopefully this will all give those lucky few who survive the war to be called veterans some food for thought.

[Armaddict]

I didn't read much of the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else on this.  There are a couple things involved that make 'keeping the fear' in the military camps next to impossible:

a) Templars -love- the magickers.  If there were to be -any- emotion felt towards them, I think it would be jealousy and anger, not fear.  I mean this quite literally...the mages are showered with attention, used for just about anything, and depended on for a whole lot.  One of my big gripes is how much templars use mages because of everything they can do...yes, it makes sense.  But it also means it's a rising trend for templars to give priority and more greatly appreciate a feared and hated population...but whenever it's brought up IC, it's dismissed, argued against, or scoffed at.

b) There are -so- freaking many mages right now that it's ridiculous.  You can't go anywhere in the camp or the area without seeing either a mage or the results of their power.  They're allowed to cast as they please, to go out on patrol, to do whatever...how can someone stay afraid of someone for what they can do when they see what they can do being done -everywhere-?  Thusfar, the war has been to a very large degree dependent on mages due to their number.

c) Combined with b.  The mages are pretty much responsible for very important duties that serve the armies pretty substantially.  When it's seen time and time again, you're going to stop being so skittish and start to appreciate it.

Overall...A is my biggest problem.  Before you get mad at people for not being afraid of magick because they see it all the time, get mad at people who make it such a common occurrence that role-playing fear of it would consume all time for role-play and duties and debilitate the experience completely.

[Jherlen]

I agree with the people saying let things happen as they happen. If what the magickers are doing is making them be feared less, great! A war is the perfect kind of thing to bring about a change in perceptions of that nature.

Likewise in Tuluk, with more people seeing up front what magickers are capable of, there will probably be some changes too. Maybe some people will start to hate mages even more after seeing what happened to their entire unit of friends that got hit by Fart of Doom. Or maybe, even, a few of the Tulukis will have treasonous thoughts and wonder why such powers can't be harnessed and used for the Sun King... etc.

Anyway my point is, this is a huge event, so let's let it run its course and change the game how it will, and not restrict everyone to pre-war societal beliefs and stigmas. Plots would be served better if people reacted to things in-game rather than saying "well the docs say commoners fear magick, so I'm going to ignore whatever my PC sees to the contrary and still fear it anyway."

[Armaddict]

Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed.

What would you, a mundane commoner, do if Hitler, some other nazi, Saddam Hussein, George Bush, John Kerry, or some other person you likely dislike strongly came back from a trip with a general and was declared a national hero?

[John]

What would you, a mundane commoner, do if Hitler, some other nazi, Saddam Hussein, George Bush, John Kerry, or some other person you likely dislike strongly came back from a trip with a general and was declared a national hero?

If the person who declared them a hero was a Templar with the corrupt militia behind their back, I'd do nothing because who knows what those templars can do (some of my chars think that templars can read their minds). I'd feel resentment towards the magicker, and I'd fear them as all hell (because they must be powerful to be treated so kindly). And if I was powerful enough, I might plot their death.

What I wouldn't do was admire them. People who were there during the war should have different opinions on matters then those who were left behind in the cities. IMO there's no problem with the Allanaki forces starting to feel some hero worship towards the magickers who fought with them. However IMO that won't last forever for the vast majority. In fact it won't last a year. Most will go back to fearing all magickers, and what they viewed during the war will start to be viewed in different manners (in fact they might even come to fear/hate magickers more then before).

All IMO.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

There are -so- freaking many mages right now that it's ridiculous.

But really what do you expect? The entire mage population of Allanak has been press-ganged into the war, save for some NPCs. Combine this with the fact that the city only sent out a tithe of its army and it's natural that they seem to be relatively abundant.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd prolly try to snipe him, ala Kennedy. But Hitler can't cast 'the shits' at me, either, or curse my family with premature baldness or limp dick.

My point wasn't that they should be treated this way or that way because of this or that. My point was that if they are, if something happened that changed their lot in life, either way, I wouldn't see it as anything other than the progression of a society.

And I don't think that Hitler the Nazi and John Kerry are in the same boat. Hitler the Nazi is worse than a Gemmer, and John Kerry substantially less frightening.

[Armaddict]

What I wouldn't do was admire them. People who were there during the war should have different opinions on matters then those who were left behind in the cities. IMO there's no problem with the Allanaki forces starting to feel some hero worship towards the magickers who fought with them.

I didn't really elaborate, but you hit it on the spot, John.  What my complaint is...is that -if- it happens, it really should, in all likelihood, cause some -very- bad things to happen among the populace.  I'm not talking anything like revolt, but you would probably see a tremendous decrease in nationalism and support.  Perhaps even a decrease in 'mundane' military force due to some sentiments about working with mages or mages getting the glory.

Like I said...I think a really large part of the problem is how people are starting to say 'It's okay, that mage was nice' or 'It's okay, they helped me'.  More on this below, and it may seem like a conspiracy theory or melodramatic exaggeration...but it still bothers me.

And I don't think that Hitler the Nazi and John Kerry are in the same boat. Hitler the Nazi is worse than a Gemmer, and John Kerry substantially less frightening.

I wasn't comparing them to mages.  I was trying to throw out names of someone you might hate, fear, loathe, or just generally not understand.  That is what it would feel like to have a mage come back and be treated like a hero.  Only a little different with a vast impact, considering what they can do and what magick has done to people in the past.

Now...to state what really disturbs me...

Part 1:  Up until the past couple years, mages actually -were- pretty rare.  They weren't -always- around, so you actually could react the way the docs state that you should because it was not an 'all of the time' deal.  Not only that...but mages were much more -scary-.  There were just as many evil ones as good ones, and they played the role...they didn't go around to all the bars and try to buddy up with people.

Part 2: Mages complain now about people not showing fear enough, along with other players (example: the first post of this topic).  People argue and say that they all have exceptions and generally state that mages are good people too!

It seems to me that more people have started playing mages, whether of their own accord, a swathe of karma given out, a bunch of new players...whatever.  However...with that 'shift' of more mages, now it's seeping into OOC.  Now, OOC'ly, more people are showing approval of mages.  More templars/nobles are giving mages benefit and overlooking the fear and distrust they really should be feeling.  It seems to me that people are taking ooc sentiments of 'Mages are cool!' and trying to put it into the game, changing it forever.  I, personally, kind of get slumped shoulders when I see it.

My personal standpoint:

Mages are not heroes.  They are not 'okay people' who are just different.  They are freaking finger wigglers.  They are not people at all, they are witches.  They can hurt people in ways no one can imagine, whether they use it to help or not.  The average commoner (the vast majority of vnpcs, I imagine) hates them, shuns them, and does -not- see an opportunity to look past the gem to the good soul inside them.  They are a -taint-.

Magickers are not allowed to serve of their own free will.  They were allowed to live in Allanak, and in return, it is their -obligation- to do as the Highlord pleases with them.  If they don't...they face the consequences because that would make them an ungrateful little wretch to be disposed of because of how dangerous it is, and it has just showed the capacity of disobeying the Highlord's will.  They were given their own quarter not so that they could practice away from people, but so that they could be separated from the masses that would be unsettled and discontent with their presence.  It keeps the masses as satisfied as possible with the arrangement.

Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war.  If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this.  The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand.  No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.

Kind of a brief overview...it goes much deeper...but all in all...the above is just some views that show why, exactly, I find this 'mages are okay' movement unsettling.

And, of course...these are my own opinions that can be vastly wrong.  Because we all know I'm not always right, heh.