HRPT - NEW STYLE OF PLAY

[moab]

I just get sick of people b*tchin' all the time.
All the time.

Really annoying.

We all like the game at times, hate it at others.
Do we need to post that we hate it at these times?  What is the point of that other than venting?

It has to be difficult to work as staff (a demanding job) and hear complaints about this stuff.  They are trying something - today not your cuppa tea. Tomorrow - maybe.  So tomorrow you won't b*tch but the memory and effect of your previous b*tch will remain.

[Lizzie]

The HRPT started how many days ago? And how many people who can't be involved in it ICly, even know what prompted it? One of the staff members posted some IC info that everyone -should- know here so I'll reiterate:

We all know something is going on between north and south, outside either town. We all know that.

But something has always been going on between north and south, according to the documented histories of the game. So what makes this "something" different? And why are people who ICly have no involvement in it, why don't they have any idea what's so different about this? Why do they think it's more than just a skirmish? Did the southern templar kidnap and publically execute a dozen high templars of the north? Did the northern templarate send their minions out to destroy every southerner that crossed the boundary into their territory, all of a sudden?

Wouldn't most just normal commoners who live in the city have SOME clue as to what prompted this war? With all the appropriate spin, propaganda, etc..but something at least?

This is why I feel so left out. My character is utterly clueless and no one she's spoken to has any answers, or if they do, they're not talking. It makes no sense for her to be clueless. I mean, north and south aren't just experiencing the usual hostilities afterall. They're at WAR. Big deal world war 7 kinda war, from what the rumors and IMM notes on the GDB imply. One would think it would be common knowledge what prompted this war, that is more significant than daily physical insults flung back and forth between city states. I imagine new players just getting started in the game would have an even tougher time of it. And at this point, I imagine if my character tried asking again, she'd be met with stares like "You don't know? What rock have you been living under?" And that kind of response wouldn't make too much IC sense either. This is the kind of information that anyone living in one of the city states would know, even if they have no involvement at all in the situation itself.

There's plenty of things I can do ICly to keep myself entertained and occupied, so I have no complaint about that at all. Anyone can come up with things to enjoy the game while most of its player base is somewhere else, doing something else. But just because I personally don't know any of the characters doing that thing they're all doing, doesn't mean my character doesn't know, virtually, some third cousin, or next door neighbor from back home, or some other virtual entity, who's out there being involved. I think everyone would know someone out there, directly or indirectly. And everyone would have heard by now, some kind of explaination as to what prompted the activities.

L. Stanson

[Cale_Knight]

But something has always been going on between north and south, according to the documented histories of the game. So what makes this "something" different?

On the 5th day of the Ascending Sun, Year 27 of the 21st Age:
In the months leading up to this day, rumors began to circulate of a Tuluki army on the loose somewhere in the east or south. Nothing was ever confirmed by anyone until this day, when an Allanaki army over two thousand strong assembled at the city-state's eastern gate and marched into the desert, heading east across the Salt Flats. Witnesses claim that a blue-robed templar was heard saying that Tuluk planned in invasion of Allanak and they were going to meet the Tuluki army in the desert to stop it. Citizens of Tuluk seem to know even less, however no one could miss a similarly-sized army of His Gloriousness' legions heading south from the city.

Two massive armies marching out of their respective cities is way more than the usual hostitilies.

I also know that there a few rumors posted in 'nak about what's going on, though I couldn't say the same about the Tuluk boards.

[Anonymous]

For those who cannot be where the action is because of IC reasons --

My personal experience with this is that the staff has been very helpful in allowing reasons to join the camps. Also, there has been more interaction periodically with other areas as a result of IC problems created by the current situation as of late.

If you are really stranded away from the action, why not talk with your imm and see if there's a better way to be involved?

With so many forces drawn away from the citystates (and into the desert), I can only imagine that the opportunities for mischief are ripe for the taking if the elements are willing.

Perhaps there should be more lawless areas introduced into the cities as the troops are thinned and sent to the front lines?

[Lizzie]

Oh yes, I know we all know what's happening. That's not my concern. My concern is that a lot of people seem to not know why it's happening. I mean, why this IC month, rather than an IC year ago? What caused those two armies to decide to head out of their cities, that day? An example:

Northerners might have learned by now, that a southern templar has been systematically killing northern nobles, and buying up all the spice to destroy it, leaving Tuluk with sparse spice resources at inflated prices, and no one who can afford to buy it because the nobles are all being killed. So the north, after months of deliberation, decided to gather its troops and set out to stop the insanity and restore order and artistic endeavors to their beloved home.

Southerners might have learned by now, that the northern independent hunters have ALL been secretly hired by the northern templarate to spy on the south and exterminate all gemmed magickers who've dared to leave the city. The southern templarate will not stand for this, and after a year of exploring the situation and attempting to rectify it peacefully, learned that the opposition will respond only to violence. And so, they sent their troops out to destroy the north once again.

See, now there's some story. Some beginning. It's like, we've been reading a novel, and discovered the first five chapters are missing. I believe everyone should at least have a summary of those first five chapters. Does that explain better?

L. Stanson

[Lazloth]

I believe everyone should at least have a summary of those first five chapters. Does that explain better?

Do you confuse Zalanthan city-life with an existence not subject to censorial power over the people?  When did the will of the God-Kings and their underlings become table talk .. and not be ground in pure speculation?

Granted, more "concerned commoners," rumors and a reflection of the state of affairs would be nifty in the cities - but don't forget, there was (afaik) no "timeline" set on this HRPT.  If this drags on, I'm sure areas will be affected.

[Twilight]

Reasons tend to stay within the circles of power.  In this case, it could be that the circle of power doesn't extend beyond, say, black robed templars.  Information has always been power in Armageddon.  The true reasons for lots of things are often hidden to an extent that if one is not a truly lucky individual in the right position and in the right time at the right place, one would never, ever know what the true reason was.  And that is one of the coolest things about the game.  So no, it plainly states that most commoners are clueless.  If you want reasons, you are going to have to start searching in the realms of powers (templars, nobles) who might know.  And even they might not know the true reason.

For those concerned about the lack of interaction in the cities, I think its a valid concern.  However, it should be a concern tempered with the realization that the HRPT will most likely be of limited nature.  One or two RL months of lower interaction will be offset by all the plots, stories and everything else this HRPT continues to generate, in the cities, when it is over.  Things like war heroes and people who have actually seen battles, and led armies.  Of course, I was fine with low interaction when the game would have low periods of 1 or 2 other people on at all, so I doubt you are in the same boat in the cities as we were eight or nine years ago.

[Melody]

I just get sick of people b*tchin' all the time.
All the time.

...

So tomorrow you won't b*tch but the memory and effect of your previous b*tch will remain.

I do agree. Sarcasm brackets notwithstanding.

Moi's an European player too, for various ic and ooc reasons , sadly can't be involved in the HRPT directly, but the impacts it left on the day to day rp is still welcome and fun. Not to mention all the deaths to keep track of.

It certainly cast a long shadow, but I imagine it might still have left out a precious few players. Not staffs' fault, not the players' fault. Just unfortunate. It certainly isn't there to dampen anyone's spirits, personally, I see them as reminders that don't get too wrapped up and forget them.

If everyone's understanding, then it isn't much negative effects at all, and see it as room for improvement.

Agree with Lizzie, despite the various rumours and such, we aren't exactly told about why the war happened, only that Allanak felt threatened, Tuluk felt threatened, and boom. Perhaps it is something ic that happened before and passed us newer players, if that's the case, would be fun for us if the knowledge would spread down again. If it is something secret commoners shouldn't know about, some lies will be fine too. ^_^ Much thanks.

[spawnloser]

Actually, I'm fairly certain I know what prompted the war.  I'm not going to say, though.  There are plenty of people that probably know even better than me.  The thing is, they aren't going to tell every peon they see.  Hell, they won't tell every Joe Soldier in the army.  Information is power, and in this case, they're keeping it.

Knowing what caused an event, Lizzie, can ruin the event for you.

To moab, though...you're tired of people bitching that they can't be involved in the fun?  All of those people playing this game to interact with other people and for some reason CAN'T be involved in the HRPT have to suffer in silence, huh?  Well, they have every right to tell you to stop bitching about them bitching, because some people are tired of being dissappointed that they can't be part of something, saying so, and then being told to sit down and shut up.  I think if they have to, you should to.

[Bebop]

My last character was reasonably long lived I guess, and she didn't have any reason to be in the HRPT I still had lots of fun.  I found something to do and it was really enjoyable.

My current character - no involvement in the HRPT.  Still havin' fun.

The last character was in the same boat as Lizzie I suppose, but I don't think people would know anymore that what Halaster has specified.  That's why he specified it.  If you are a commoner in the city, you -would- be wondering just like everyone else what's going on, if this is the typical clashes or something bigger.  I suppose no one will even know that for sure until it is done.  If you had a friend that went to the war speak with them, see what's going on.  If you didn't - well then you didn't.  If you want to find out so bad, sneak to the encampment.  Risk your life to find out.  And hey - if you die make a character to play in the HRPT if you think that would be more enjoyable or make something else more enjoyable.  The game is about fun.  Unfortunately for some they are not involved in a large scale event consuming most of the player base.  Do what is most fun (within character/reason of course.)  If your want to play your current character, outweighs your feelings of boredom and wishes to be involved else where then keep your current character, deal with it make the best of it.

Not much else anyone can do.  The IMMs can't start going to the city to try and make happy fun times there because people are bored.  It's a war and that's just how it is.  This new form of play is more more realistic anyway.

[Anonymous]

The info is there..and the story has been building up for a while... just don't expect the 'commoners' to know anything at all...The powers to be do not have to explain themselves to anyone for any reason really...only those with influence, potition and those who are 'useful' know exactly what is going on...and there if you think about it there is probably a damn good reason to keep your mouth shut**cough spies**...unfortunately the bar flies will most likely know very little.

I do not recomend off peak time players go to the front lines esspecially if you looking for 'action' there is still RP but the most exciting stuff happens prime time of course...freedom is somewhat limited too. If you still want to come though wish up for an imm to animate a Templar and have the templar send a request to the camp, i am sure there are players at the camp willing to pick others up...I also recomend know how to ride at least...owning your own mount is a plus.

[Anonymous]

Also there are alot of opportunities to help that aren't nessasarily in the front lines...there are alot of opportunites to make sid...and alot of the action doesn't completely take place in the front lines, getting in touch with templars  is always a good start about how you can start getting involed one way or another...you don't have to be a warrior...i can see a merchant being very useful in other ways aswell...just use your imagination...be creative and come up with something...war requires people of all kinda just not fighters.

[Malken]

I think it would be nice for the European players to have their own OOC forum, just so that they could start organizing things for themselves, see who plays around their own time, etc..

[Lizzie]

Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe some of you aren't reading it right. But mostly my concern is that commoners would have been told -something- other than "We're at war and you can help by doing blah blah blah." We would've been given propaganda, or outright lies, or spin, or maybe even the truth if it serves the city we're in to tell the truth. But no matter what we're told, we'd be told -something.-

Something to make us think we're being asked to help out because of something significant that would cause the city government to go crazy with sudden recruitment. Something other than "the other side is attacking so we have to defend ourselves." The other side, virtually, is -always- attacking. It's in the docs, there are -always- skirmishes and hostilities. That's why there are *soldiers* at the gates, instead of hired archers to pick off random monsters that get too close. That's why the militias are trained for outside patrols, rather than generic hunters with no military-based strategies. What makes this time different, that would inspire more than the usual to answer the call of the city's government, that the government is so eager and emphatic on delivering?

Give us a lie if you want. Spin a story. Feed us propaganda. Or tell us the truth. It doesn't matter what you tell us, as long as you tell us something so ICly we can decide to a) stay far away and keep our noses out of things that are military things b) get curious enough to check it out for ourselves, c) run in screaming the glory of our city, d) sneak over to the other side and give them info to help them win.

Right now, no one's given any IC reason why any of us should do any of these things.  And so it looks to me, that the only people who are doing any of these things purposely, are people who are "in the know" and everyone else is berated, ICly, for sitting around wondering why everyone's berating them.

Again, it doesn't matter that we're not told the truth about what's going on and why. It only matters that we're told something, so we can respond to it ICly as is appropriate for our characters to respond.

L. Stanson

[^Bebop^]

Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe some of you aren't reading it right. But mostly my concern is that commoners would have been told -something- other than "We're at war and you can help by doing blah blah blah." We would've been given propaganda, or outright lies, or spin, or maybe even the truth if it serves the city we're in to tell the truth. But no matter what we're told, we'd be told -something.-

You have been told -something- you've been told something on the Staff Announcements and the IG boards.  It may be alot but you have been told something.  In Zalanthas commoners have very little rights.  What commoners know is of little importance to those that are leading.  Basically they want to keep moral up and are going to most likely say, there is a conflict going on we are winning.  Don't expect CNN coverage on updates from the frontlines.  Don't mean to be harsh or scarcastic or whatever.  But you have been told something, may not be as much as you want to hear or what you want to hear but if you just check the staff announcements and IG boards, you will see news on the battle.  And that is the something that you know.

[Twilight]

I think what we are trying to say is that, no, this wouldn't actually happen.  There is no "support" needed from the populace for something like this, so no understanding or story is required.  If a templar is standing next to you recruiting or whatever, you'd better either a) instantly become patriotic b) have a good story on why you can't go or c) have a good bribe ready.  The cities are just those kinds of places.

[amoeba]

Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe some of you aren't reading it right. But mostly my concern is that commoners would have been told -something- other than "We're at war and you can help by doing blah blah blah." We would've been given propaganda, or outright lies, or spin, or maybe even the truth if it serves the city we're in to tell the truth. But no matter what we're told, we'd be told -something.-

I have to agree with Lizzie here.  It's not about knowing everything that is going on. It's not about even knowing the truth.  It about the spin that is given the people. This is a strange war as there is none of that.

There are less than a handful of posts, most if not all of them simply talk about ways to join the conflict or talk about xxx won a battle.  There should be some motivations to work -city based- plots around that concern the war.  There are characters in which it makes no IC sense to visit a front line.  Propaganda is a good thing, it builds plots that can be worked on.  I think a lot of people look at what is going on with city characters with the prism of their own experience.  Remember many of us have no clue as to what is going on, no information flowing in other than what is publicly posted, and no players to learn anything from.

I just get sick of people b*tchin' all the time.
All the time.

There is a -huge- difference between bitching and providing feedback.  As this is a new style of HRPT things will be different, some better some worse. Don't you think the game is better served by allowing an open discussion about things that could use improvement?  The thing that gets tiring is not people examining holes in the system, but rather people using the "suck it up, and deal with it" approach.

In the end, I highly support this style of HRPT,  very much so. But I also would like to see the holes addressed.

[Gimfalisette]

In response to Lizzie:

I'm OOCly frustrated that I don't know more about the HRPT, just because I think it's interesting. Oh well.

My character is not ICly frustrated, because she's a loyalist. Loyalists don't need extra reasons to hate The Other City; they already do hate it and want to attack/kill it because of All The Bad Things They've Ever Done To Us. The propaganda has already been done over the many years of the character's life, more propaganda would just be icing on the cake. And characters that know anyone who's died in the war have even more reason now to hate Those Other Guys.

Non-loyalists really shouldn't care very much about why the cities are at war. Maybe they'd be mildly curious. Mostly what I see from non-loyalist characters is "wish they'd get it over with" and "how can I exploit this situation to my benefit."

So I don't agree that the powers above would necessarily think it was important to trickle info down to the common classes.

Also, depending on which city your character is in, I think you may or may not see a particular kind of propaganda happening. In Allanak, brute force is the only propaganda thought necessary. Tuluk has a different way, and if a character is in Tuluk, he/she will certainly see the propaganda in action. (There is, after all, a whole group of commoners in Tuluk that can be said to be the living embodiment of a propaganda machine.) But propaganda is not the same as actual information.

[Gimfalisette]

I have to agree with Lizzie here.  It's not about knowing everything that is going on. It's not about even knowing the truth.  It about the spin that is given the people. This is a strange war as there is none of that.

All I can say is, y'all must be playing in Allanak. Spin thrives in Tuluk.

[amoeba]

I have to agree with Lizzie here.  It's not about knowing everything that is going on. It's not about even knowing the truth.  It about the spin that is given the people. This is a strange war as there is none of that.

All I can say is, y'all must be playing in Allanak. Spin thrives in Tuluk.

Yes.

I must say I disagree somewhat with the following points, mostly for practical reasons:

My character is not ICly frustrated, because she's a loyalist. Loyalists don't need extra reasons to hate The Other City; they already do hate it and want to attack/kill it because of All The Bad Things They've Ever Done To Us. The propaganda has already been done over the many years of the character's life, more propaganda would just be icing on the cake. And characters that know anyone who's died in the war have even more reason now to hate Those Other Guys.

Non-loyalists really shouldn't care very much about why the cities are at war. Maybe they'd be mildly curious. Mostly what I see from non-loyalist characters is "wish they'd get it over with" and "how can I exploit this situation to my benefit."

So I don't agree that the powers above would necessarily think it was important to trickle info down to the common classes.

The practical problem here is "what bad things?"  Give me something I can chew on.  The nature of the game and permadeath in general is that "history" gets blurred into non specifics.  What helps to create create life changing motivations are specifics, things that hit close to home.  We should hear tales about atrocities perpetrated by the other side, tales of roaring victories on our side.  These should be active rumors, grist of the day.   I don't know, maybe I'm just viewing this from a veil of ignorance, maybe I am not.  I came into this character right before the war started, my last long lived one being a desert based one. so I have not seen any of the buildup.

And yes, it is important that "information" even if it is a complete fabrication 'trickle down to the common classes".  Morale can be the deciding factor in a war, to ignore it, is to invite defeat.

[Gimfalisette]

The practical problem here is "what bad things?"  Give me something I can chew on.  The nature of the game and permadeath in general is that "history" gets blurred into non specifics.  What helps to create create life changing motivations are specifics, things that hit close to home.  We should hear tales about atrocities perpetrated by the other side, tales of roaring victories on our side.  These should be active rumors, grist of the day.   I don't know, maybe I'm just viewing this from a veil of ignorance, maybe I am not.  I came into this character right before the war started, my last long lived one being a desert based one. so I have not seen any of the buildup.

Like I said, I think this is a problem particular to Allanak. Occupation is only fifty years in the past in Tuluk, and there are plenty of NPCs around who experienced that personally. There is a whole group of commoners in Tuluk devoted to keeping a connection with history and who have good reasons to hate Allanak, and that same group of commoners is hard at work putting out propaganda. I came into my character right before the war started as well, however, I think the difference in location is everything. There is no reason for anyone in Allanak to put spin on anything or to trickle down information, because fear is what keeps the populace in line. In Tuluk the spin is part of the culture, and I guarantee you that it's happening there. In that aspect, for this HRPT, it especially sucks to be in Allanak. But--the cities are different in these ways on purpose, so that they will feel very different to play in.

Edited to add: My character now has good personal reasons to hate Allanak too, with friends dying on the battlefield. Surely that's a reason that any character could use now to hate the other side, unless they just didn't know anyone who went to war.

[Malifaxis]

So, ahh, why don't you stop posting about it and be the change you want?

Damn, so much complaining.  It's choking my aural arteries.

[spawnloser]

What do you mean, amoeba?

To Tulukis, Bad Stuff: They came about a generation ago to enslave our entire populace, and only after much struggle and hardship, we succesfully took back our home.

To Allanakis, Bad Stuff: They killed our friends and family that were rightfully there defending the Highlord's domain.

Seriously, everyone in both cities are told from a young age that the people from the other city are barbarians and would kill you if they could get away with it.  What other reason do you need to kill them first?

[Kelen]

For everyone in the cities...it's not exactely...always active out on the field either. There is -alot- of waiting, but I still feel your frustration. Now is the time to show off and make the best of things with your inanimate surroundings.

And, it's been said I think, but it will be alot more interesting when forces return to the cities.

But, until then, all I can say is hang tight.

By the way, the Imms are doing a great job with the HRPT so far, on all levels, and have been very helpful. :wink:

[amoeba]

What do you mean, amoeba?

To Tulukis, Bad Stuff: They came about a generation ago to enslave our entire populace, and only after much struggle and hardship, we successfully took back our home.

To Allanakis, Bad Stuff: They killed our friends and family that were rightfully there defending the Highlord's domain.

Seriously, everyone in both cities are told from a young age that the people from the other city are barbarians and would kill you if they could get away with it.  What other reason do you need to kill them first?

Okay first off ....this is NOT complaining... This is a -discussion- concerning a -differing- viewpoint.  I have stated numerous times that I think the HRPT style is good.  I am for it. I hope I have made that point clear -yet- again. If you don't want to read it, then by all means don't.  

Here is a clarification.  I could easily come up with any number of generic "Bad Stuff", however, IMHO it feels contrived.  Yes all citizens are bread to believe the other side is bad. I don't dispute that. What I am trying to state as succinctly as possible is that at least from a nobody in the 'Nak side is that there is no sense of anything much has changed, no sense of immediacy.  This may be perfectly fine and the way things should be.. maybe.  If it is not, and there should be a feeling of a serious and -unusual- conflict going on, then it falls short from this commoners perspective.  It all seems very distant.

Remember, much of the focus here was to build up Tuluk as a unique and interesting place. Remember all the "I hate Tuluk" threads? So it stands to reason that more will be happening in Tuluk.  Sadly Allanak at the moment, and I am sure this is a passing phase, feels like the Tuluk of old.  For each action, unintended consequences happen, the gutting of the 'nak player base is one of them.

Now, if people could stop acting like this discussion is about raining on your parade, the questions I have is how to make life interesting for those that by necessity are left behind?  This would include brand new newbies who would have little to no clue as to how to get involved. All they see is an empty (of PC's) city.  I like one idea presented about having a blurb in the MOTD directed towards the war.  I also might suggest that in the welcome email to first time newbies a blurb explaining that much of the PC population is at the front-lines would help.

Ideas should always be welcome, like the suggestion of increasing the level of propaganda.