Change skill name: backstab --> assassinate

[Morrolan]

It seems to me, with the code for backstab being too specific, that changing the name to something, and changing the code to reflect a whole host of options for the strike, might be something interesting to do.

There was some discussion of changing the archery skill to reflect location choices.  I don't know if this ever went in.  I think the same idea, applied to "backstab" would be a nice addition.  And for the ever-traditional, we could keep the default as a "backstab."

Code Select Expand

Ex:

> assassinate cloaked head
Stepping in, you stab directly at the tall, cloaked figure's eye.

Morrolan

[Lavalamps]

I like this idea.

However, I think it would better to leave out the location (in your example, 'head) and emote that instead.

[Moofassa]

When I backstab a duskhorn, I'm not assassinating it.

That makes me laugh. Assassinate ritikki.

I'm not always using it to assassinate so no...



Using this thinking, we could change kill to assassinate.


assassinate lizard.

[Malken]

Try to type assassinate in a moment of high adrenaline

[Malifaxis]

ass tembo

The tembo is shorter than you.
The tembo is slightly older than you.
The tembo has ripped your nuts off before you realize that you can't abbreviate this stupid command.

Er, no.


I really prefer 'strike' or something.  Backstab is not only assassination.

[Kennath]

Ideas:

Sneak Attack
Execute
Slay
Exterminate
Dispatch
Lynch
Murder
Ambush
Elfing
Elf Attack
Elf

-Ken

[Fnord]

I liked how in 3rd edition D&D backstab got changed to sneak attack. It suggested that the attack was more to any available vitals than literally to the back.

For clarity of commands on Arm I'd call it vital strike, with "vital" being the actual command. It would be cool to see some different messages, like you stab them in the jugular, base of the skull, back, cut the ateries on their thighs, drive your dagger under their armpit into their lungs, etc.

The fact that I know these different techniques is purely coincidental, but I work for euros.  :twisted:

[John]

This would encourage people to think that:
a) Only assassin class can be assassins (because only they can assassinate).
b) The only way to assassinate people is through the assassinate skill.

So no. But changing it to "vital strike" with vital as the command (or strike) would be good (as it gets rid of the idea that backstab is stabbing someone in the back).

[Jakahri]

I always alias backstab with 'gank'.

Just my personal favorite.  :lol:

[Medena]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I have to disagree with you here, Willy.  Backstab means a certain thing which assassinate, vital strike, sneak attack or even gank will never equal for meaning.  Let me begin with what it does not mean. It does not mean a literal stab in the back. That's just silly. What it does mean is a critical blow, sometimes capable of delivering instant death, given to a vital organ.  This blow is prefaced by a sneaky approach, the surprise element being part of the key to being able to deliver a blow of enough force and accuracy to sometimes mete out death.  Unless you are a ninja dropping smoke bombs, the best way to surprise someone is usually sneaking up behind them and this is where the "back" part comes in.  Although the approach is usually from behind, the actual blow does not necessarily have to be to the back area.

[Nusku]

Medena is correct.

[Lazloth]

Alas poor Diku, I knew him, Horatio.

[Tlaloc]

I'd have to say, I'd say the odds of this happening are pretty low. I mean, is it really so hard to look beyond the coded name of a skill? Even if you're ganking someone in the face...it's still a "backstab".

Your skills list is, essentially, an OOC tool to help you know and understand what your character is capable of, and/or what they've had at least a modicum of training in. I encourage people to look beyond the code and the skillslist. Just because it says 'kick', doesn't mean you aren't good at elbowing someone in the face. Just because it says 'sneak', doesn't mean you're tiptoeing around.

[Lazloth]

I'd have to say, I'd say the odds of this happening are pretty low.

I stopped thinking that when we lost BANZAI!!!, but it's just evolution.  You have to let go, fuddy-duddy.

[Dalmeth]

Your skills list is, essentially, an OOC tool to help you know and understand what your character is capable of, and/or what they've had at least a modicum of training in. I encourage people to look beyond the code and the skillslist. Just because it says 'kick', doesn't mean you aren't good at elbowing someone in the face. Just because it says 'sneak', doesn't mean you're tiptoeing around.

I like this sort of conception of how skills should be used.  I always used kick to represent clipping someone with edge of a shield, given how it seemed awkward to kick with my character's hands full.

However, in the grander scheme of things, I can't always emote as I kick.  So it would help if the code would make things a little bit more vague.

Having never seen a backstab, I can't say if the message actually mentions a stab in the back.  If it does, it goes a good way to undermine any emote you might make to try and customize the action.

[Sanvean]

What about calling it something like "lethal strike"?

[Dalmeth]

I personally found assasinate to be just as cumbersome a term as backstab.  Given how a backstab isn't currently 100% lethal, I'd just be happy with critical strike.

Perhaps make the message something like, "Me plunges ~weapon into %target."

[Cyrian20]

I liked how in 3rd edition D&D backstab got changed to sneak attack. It suggested that the attack was more to any available vitals than literally to the back.

For clarity of commands on Arm I'd call it vital strike, with "vital" being the actual command. It would be cool to see some different messages, like you stab them in the jugular, base of the skull, back, cut the ateries on their thighs, drive your dagger under their armpit into their lungs, etc.

The fact that I know these different techniques is purely coincidental, but I work for euros.  :twisted:

We already have a vital strike skill. The leet magicker psion ninja class has them.... They are a 12 karma class so most of you haven't seen them.


Disclaimer: There is no magicker psion ninja class to my knowledge so I am not spounting ic knowledge. If there is one who do I talk to about an app?

[SpyGuy]

What about calling it something like "lethal strike"?

I'd be down with that, then the command word could just be "strike [target]"

To reply to Tlaloc:  Is that Imm policy that kick does not actually mean your character kicked out with their foot?  I had thought I saw another Imm say the exact opposite, that if it says you kicked then you kicked.  No kneeing, no elbowing, no nothing.  Which I of course disagree with but just wondering if there was consensus.

[amoeba]

I'd say call it "Fred".  In the end it really doesn't matter what it is called as long as people understand what it is.

[John]

I'd have to say, I'd say the odds of this happening are pretty low. I mean, is it really so hard to look beyond the coded name of a skill? Even if you're ganking someone in the face...it's still a "backstab".

Right. But if a name of a skill name tends to encourage people to think of it in one particular manner and there's a name that conveys it's intention better, why not change it?

[jcarter]

Right. But if a name of a skill name tends to encourage people to think of it in one particular manner and there's a name that conveys it's intention better, why not change it?

Because backstab is a generic term that people can easily look at and say "oh, okay, I know what that is and what it does". It's just not that big of a deal, and the first paragraph of the helpfile goes into detail that it's a critical strike. It's been fine for this long, why suddenly change it and jar the entire pbase?

[Only He Stands There]

I'd like to keep it the same, or at the very least keep the "backstab" command around, if only as an alias to the new command. And yes, I know you can set up your own aliases, but heh...

Backstab isn't at all confusing for the name of a skill. Like jcarter said, you hear "backstab" and think, oh, okay, it's going for the vitals. It's also going to be jarring to anyone currently playing an assassin or anyone else with the backstab skill, when they're in a frenzy and typing "back target" "backstab target" "backstab target" "backstab target" "OOC thought: Oh goddamnit." "usuallylethalstabatthevitalswithadagger target".  

Benefits of changing the name:

1) What the skill entails is clearer. This probably isn't really that much of a problem. If I'm confused, even remotely, about what a skill does, I do what any good boy does and read the helpfile.

2) The skill's name is "correct." This is granted - and of course, we'd like to get a little further from "stock Diku" as we're anything but.


Cons of changing the name:

1) Jarring change to the pbase. Players with assassins or who regularly play assassins might get confused at the wrong moment, and that could change the tide of a conflict.

2) Possibly confusing the playerbase even further. Lethal strike sounds like it will always be a one-hit kill if successful. Vital strike just doesn't sound like a potentially lethal hit - it sounds like a normal hit, except "aiming" for a vital area." These kinds of things can throw newbies off, although arguably, newbies shouldn't be backstabbing anyone if they don't understand skills/commands yet.


My vote: keep it how it is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd have to say, I'd say the odds of this happening are pretty low. I mean, is it really so hard to look beyond the coded name of a skill? Even if you're ganking someone in the face...it's still a "backstab".

Your skills list is, essentially, an OOC tool to help you know and understand what your character is capable of, and/or what they've had at least a modicum of training in. I encourage people to look beyond the code and the skillslist. Just because it says 'kick', doesn't mean you aren't good at elbowing someone in the face. Just because it says 'sneak', doesn't mean you're tiptoeing around.

I agree that we need to look beyond the code.

But then again, pal, we sort of need to stop pushing perceptions on people, too.

If I am using kick and it says that I kick someone, and then I emote elbowing him, there is a contradiction. It's much better for the code to tell the person that I struck or hit them. When it says something all-encompassing, such as that, I can accurately say how I hit them.

[WarriorPoet]

To reply to Tlaloc:  Is that Imm policy that kick does not actually mean your character kicked out with their foot?  I had thought I saw another Imm say the exact opposite, that if it says you kicked then you kicked.  No kneeing, no elbowing, no nothing.  Which I of course disagree with but just wondering if there was consensus.

I remember that thread, and would sort of like an Official Opinion on it. I like using elbows, headbutts, knees, and other things in emotes when I use kick, but if I'm drawing a frown from 'up there' every time I do it, I'd like to know.

-WP

[Fnord]

What about calling it something like "lethal strike"?

I still like vital strike over lethal strike, as starting backstabbers aren't exactly lethal.

[Tlaloc]

If I am using kick and it says that I kick someone, and then I emote elbowing him, there is a contradiction. It's much better for the code to tell the person that I struck or hit them. When it says something all-encompassing, such as that, I can accurately say how I hit them.

I agree with the echo thing, and 'kick' is probably a bad example. However, 'backstab' isn't that all encompasing.

I'm okay with change. I just don't think this is one of those things that desperatly needs to be changed, heh. The word 'backstab' to me is a metaphor for what the skill does. You aren't nessecarially backstabbing. But you might be. You could be side stabbing. Ultimately the name of at least this particular skill doesn't really matter so long as people understand what it is, and what it does.

Getting farther away from 'stock diku' is not, in my opinion, a great reason to change it. In fact, I would argue that most newbies would know what the 'backstab' skill does, without ever having to read the helpfiles. I would agrue that keeping the skill name as-is, is far more newbie friendly than making it some strange, vague skill which people must reference in order to even know what it's for.

Additionally, 'backstab' maintains a much easier and more concise command system than any other idea I've heard (except perhaps 'assassinate' - however, even then you'd get problem when you 'ass templar' and learn how tall they are compared to you). As Only He Stands There posted: 'backstab templar' is much more friendly interface than 'vital strike templar' - though I imagine whatever new command got chosen might be shortened to something easier.

I remember that thread, and would sort of like an Official Opinion on it. I like using elbows, headbutts, knees, and other things in emotes when I use kick, but if I'm drawing a frown from 'up there' every time I do it, I'd like to know.

Actually, I would say that if the code says you kick, you kick. Thus, no elbowing kicks (yet). My original point was more aimed towards trying to illustrate that, with some skill (though admittedly, not many), the name of the skill isn't 100% exactly what you're 'doing'. It's a simplified metaphor, which is easily recognizable, and easy to 'use' when you enter commands.

When you 'subdue' someone, you aren't nessecarially walking up, and giving them a big bear hug, pinning their arms to their sides. You might be twisting their arms behind their back, doing a kung-fu wrist lock, or whatever.

I (personally) feel that 'backstab' is actually a generic enough name for the skill to be such a metaphor, but not too generic, so that people log in and go: "Critial Strike? What is that, and how does it work?"

[Intrepid]

I'd be all for a change of name as long as we kept the general idea of what it is.

A backstab is used by rogues because it's a vital's shot, and a nasty one at that.
Although "sneak attack" is partially right, a sneak attack doesn't need to be lethal.
"Lethal strike" is a good idea that describes the motion and can include stabs to the
back, in between the ribs, puncturing of the lung(s) and/or liver, heart shot, etc.

If it really is just a manuver meant to hit between the sixth and seventh vertebrae
that paralyzes and kills instantly, then backstab is appropriate, however.

[Kalden]

Backstab is fine. Assassinate is a horrible change, and "vital" or "lethal" strike isn't much better.

One interesting change would be to overhaul the entire system. Instead of backstab, assassins could get a sneak attack when attacking from hiding based on skill one has with the weapon...then again, maybe that wouldn't be the same. Asassins would then be able to practice their sneak attack by simply sparring in the Byn or something.

[Lizzie]

When I first started looking at the combat documents I was confused. I saw piercing weapons, a piercing skill, and a backstab skill. First, I thought they were the same thing. Then I thought they were the same, except backstab aimed for the back. Finally I figured it out. I imagine most new players will have some confusion about this. What if you just made a new command called akill? akill would be the same as "backstab" is now, if you're holding a stabbing weapon. it would be the same as "kick" is now, if you're unarmed. The "a" in "akill" would stand for "aimed" as in "aimed attack." Would that cover all bases?

L. Stanson

[Manhattan]

Tlaloc, we need elbow 'kicks.'