True Love

[Anonymous]

I was wondering if "love" exsisted in zalanthas, the way it would on earth or if at all. I mean true romantic love between two people. Also i am just wondering about commoners elves and humans, not so much half elves because they have that disorder or nobles.

So can a person fall in love with another person?
Would it be the same kinda love we would feel for another person here on earth?
If so how would they go about expressing that love? spending more time with each other? tending to have more sex with each other the with other people? living together? Having children?
Would a person (male or female) at anytime become jealous for some reason? If so what reasons?
How common would love be in Zalanthas as far as the commoner class is concerned?
What would the love (or relationship) time line be for the regular joe in zalanthas. ex on earth:date>serious relationships>marriage (maybe a divorce and remarrige or some combo)>kids(maybe)> person you end up dying with.

These are just questions and thoughts going through my head and just would really want to hear the players opinionsand thoughts.

[Kalden]

Uh. Humans on Zalanthas are the same as humans on Earth, except with different environmental conditions. Love has existed throughout human history, regardless of the environmental conditions. In fact it's been quite common.

So yes.

[Majikal]

agreed. It makes perfect since to me though I'm sure there would be a more mature approach, logical and realism over the 'wanting to cuddle' feeling. I don't see anything wrong with Rping love or even obsessing over someone.

[ale six]

Sure. Just don't expect a happy ending.  :evil:

[Aldiel]

It's probably not the custom, but I'd think it could exist, sure.  It's is going to be hard though to think about much else besides surviving on Zalanthes.

[Zhaky]

I don't wanna make a new topic when this is much about it, but I have a question

What would happen in case a:

Templar falls in love with a commoner?
Templar falls in love with a noble?
Noble falls in love with a commoner?
Noble falls in love with a Templar?
etc... (if you got more examples)

now that Templars are so special and almost inhuman, can they then fall in love?

[ale six]

I don't wanna make a new topic when this is much about it, but I have a question

What would happen in case a:

Templar falls in love with a commoner?

This would be very rare, but usually the commoner would end up as that templar's concubine. The templar would have to be very careful about revealing the fact that he was actually deeply attached to the commoner in public.

Templar falls in love with a noble?

They'd probably end up just being very close and having sex a lot. They wouldn't be able to get married unless their seniors approved, and marriages due to love in Zalanthas are very rare.

Noble falls in love with a commoner?

Same as if a templar fell in love with a commoner, perhaps slightly less rare.

Noble falls in love with a Templar?

Same question as above?

now that Templars are so special and almost inhuman, can they then fall in love?

They have special holy powers, which makes them more than just your normal human, but they still have human emotions.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I highly doubt 'true love' is rare. I also doubt that 'cuddling' is rare. The fight for survival on Zalanthas is not an 'every waking moment' thing for a decent percentage of the population.

I'm in no way saying that survival on Zalanthas is easy, but it's not an Arena battle, either.

Love is something that will always have threads throughout any world's existance.

[ShaLeah]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15284&highlight=lurve

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1019&highlight=love

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1568&highlight=love

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6645&highlight=love

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10651&highlight=love

Just a few of the discussions on love and its many aspects.

[Anonymous]

I'll go one step further and suggest that there are some facets of Zalanthan society that -rely- on the existence and fostering of love.

[Cuusardo]

Love can be a dangerous thing on Zalanthas.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, it can be.

[Moofassa]

Love can be a dangerous thing on Zalanthas.

emote breaks down into a disheveled state, tears larger than ginka fruits begin to fall from his rosed cheeks.

[MorganChaos]

First, I want to correct your misconception. Half-elves do not have a disorder. Going through life ostracized and told you're worthless will fuck anyone up. Half-elves have a combined desire to fit in and desire to prove their independence.

I feel better now.

I'd think love is common enough. There's certainly family love (or was I wrong to rp that character sobbing and screaming to the point of inability to do anything else?)

A Zalanthan could get jealous, sure. Polyamory/polygamy/your preferred term starting with poly is common and accepted on Zalanthas. Doesn't mean everyone subscribes to it, or that it's even the norm. There are PCs who prefer monogamy in relationships. I wasn't involved in, but knew about a PC couple. The guy would have had various girlfriends given his choice, but his girl said "No. Just me, no one else, or someone other than me." So they were monogamous.

There's good reasons on Zalanthas, still, to discourage promiscuity and multiple partners. Part of it is the whole "is my son really my son" thing. The western idea of monogamy and virginity until marriage is idiotic and completely unnatural for most humans (there are a few humans who mate for life naturally, but the majority don't. Divorce rate anyone?). It stems from male-dominated societies when you wanted to make sure your son who was inheriting everything was actually your son, and the best way to do that was to make sure your wife had never had sex with anyone else. There's also lots of fun diseases spread sexually, and you're at a higher risk if your partner is having sex with three other people, plus the various one-night stands.

Having children isn't always a result of love. It's very often equally because someone didn't take their mul mix, or a political move (a child is obviously a pretty powerful connection between two people, and possibly a person and a group, if the other is a big enough part of it), or for appearances of something.

The relationship timeline on Zalanthas would be just as variable as it is on earth.

[Gimfalisette]

Having children isn't always a result of love. It's very often equally because someone didn't take their mul mix, or a political move (a child is obviously a pretty powerful connection between two people, and possibly a person and a group, if the other is a big enough part of it), or for appearances of something.

Anthropologically speaking, having children is most often motivated by economic forces. Children / young adults are part of the family workforce; the more workers you have, the better-off you will eventually be. Even at a young age, children can participate in economic activities such as fetching water, tending crops or animals, crafting; and by the age of about 13 they will be fully capable workers. Almost universally, children are also the parents' retirement plan; if you're fortunate enough to grow old and frail, then you'll need someone to take care of you, and thus you need that extended family. Additionally, in some societies (I haven't seen this in ARM, although it's implied in the noble marriage docs), children can be a source of income through a bride price (money paid to family that bride is marrying into) or a dowry (money paid to family that bride is coming from).

[bloodfromstone]

Code Select Expand

The fight for survival on Zalanthas is not an 'every waking moment' thing for a decent percentage of the population.

I would just like to chime in to say I'm glad to hear 7DV say this. A lot of people get so obsessed with how harsh Zalanthas is supposed to be that that ends up being the response to everything. Can people fall in love? No. Zalanthas is too harsh. Everyone just wants everyone for sex. Can people have real friendships? No. Too harsh. Everyone betrays everyone. Can someone be genuinely kind? No. Too harsh. It's just an act to trick you into sex and betrayal.

But that's not really what it's like. There will always be love and friendships and belief in human nature. A harsh world makes them rarer, but stronger, in my opinion.
Love exists, and I hope you have a lot of fun playing it out. Some of my most enjoyable moments in Arm were about love, be it between two extremely close friends or a pair of lovers or what have you.

But yeah, don't expect a happy ending.

[Marauder Moe]

And just because you betrayed someone doesn't mean you weren't (once) actually in love with them.

[MorganChaos]

Having children isn't always a result of love. It's very often equally because someone didn't take their mul mix, or a political move (a child is obviously a pretty powerful connection between two people, and possibly a person and a group, if the other is a big enough part of it), or for appearances of something.

Anthropologically speaking, having children is most often motivated by economic forces. Children / young adults are part of the family workforce; the more workers you have, the better-off you will eventually be. Even at a young age, children can participate in economic activities such as fetching water, tending crops or animals, crafting; and by the age of about 13 they will be fully capable workers. Almost universally, children are also the parents' retirement plan; if you're fortunate enough to grow old and frail, then you'll need someone to take care of you, and thus you need that extended family. Additionally, in some societies (I haven't seen this in ARM, although it's implied in the noble marriage docs), children can be a source of income through a bride price (money paid to family that bride is marrying into) or a dowry (money paid to family that bride is coming from).

Add that to selling your young into slavery, and this is a good point.

[Angela Christine]

Anthropologically speaking, having children is most often motivated by economic forces. Children / young adults are part of the family workforce; the more workers you have, the better-off you will eventually be. Even at a young age, children can participate in economic activities such as fetching water, tending crops or animals, crafting; and by the age of about 13 they will be fully capable workers. Almost universally, children are also the parents' retirement plan; if you're fortunate enough to grow old and frail, then you'll need someone to take care of you, and thus you need that extended family. Additionally, in some societies (I haven't seen this in ARM, although it's implied in the noble marriage docs), children can be a source of income through a bride price (money paid to family that bride is marrying into) or a dowry (money paid to family that bride is coming from).

Good stuff.  However, the last line implies that it is always the woman that joins the man's family.  That is only true in a patrilineal society, in a matrilineal society the man joins the woman's family, like with the Iroquois or dolphins.  We don't really know what is the norm for Zalanthans.

The nobility seems to practice unilineality where it can go either way, but if you are considered part of your father's family than you aren't part of your mother's family, or vice versa.

Since there is no prohibition against casual sex or casual breeding, matrilineal families might be slightly more common than other models among city commoners.  If the daddy is unknown, then the kid will be raised by the mommy.  If it happens often you may have a situation where many people are raised in homes with their maternal grandmother, their maternal grandmother's children, and the maternal grandmother's daughter's children,  but the father(s) and grandfathers are unknown, as are most of your maternal uncle's children.

[Gimfalisette]

Good stuff.  However, the last line implies that it is always the woman that joins the man's family.  That is only true in a patrilineal society, in a matrilineal society the man joins the woman's family, like with the Iroquois or dolphins.  We don't really know what is the norm for Zalanthans.

The nobility seems to practice unilineality where it can go either way, but if you are considered part of your father's family than you aren't part of your mother's family, or vice versa.

Since there is no prohibition against casual sex or casual breeding, matrilineal families might be slightly more common than other models among city commoners.  If the daddy is unknown, then the kid will be raised by the mommy.  If it happens often you may have a situation where many people are raised in homes with their maternal grandmother, their maternal grandmother's children, and the maternal grandmother's daughter's children,  but the father(s) and grandfathers are unknown, as are most of your maternal uncle's children.

Yeah, there are matrilineal families in earth cultures, however I don't recall any that have any kind of financial exchange involved for marriage. (It's been a long time since I formally studied marriage customs though). Plus in matrilineal families often the father does not join the mother's family at all, as you said. And since I was specifically discussing how marriage can be financially advantageous, even for "normal folks" in earth culture (thus supporting the viewpoint that marriage/love is not just for cuddly feelings in humans), matrilineal families didn't warrant special citation. The point was, in a situation where you can expect to either gain another worker when your kid gets married, or get paid off to marry them (whether they stay with you or not), it's a positive financial investment long-term to have kids.

[Dre]

I could not agree more with bloodfromstone post, well said.  

I know alot of people have sex in the mud but but for the most part actual strong relationships are on the shallow end of the RP pool. Families of any kind are the greatest means of survival in a harsh world. I mean sure a family might sell a child or two but having a family and children isn't only for old age..if you get sick or get maimed the family is still there to help.

I know someone once posted on how they thought zalanthians live fast and furiously. Sex,sid and spice. I am sure some do but the majority don't. Some have families(again whatever structure type) to provide for. Keep your character inside the cities go about your dialy business of collecting clay to eat, mind your own business and avoid problems with templar and others and  7/10..well maybe 6/10 you'll find you live to die of old age. Yeah it would be boring but thats the basic life of a commoner.Just because we don't play boring commoners doesn't mean there aren't any.

I also think that people are making sex too valauble of a commodity in Za lanthas. I think sex in zalanthas is the equivilant to going to the washroom on earth. We all do it, its no big deal, sometimes you get good relief.I would think in Zalanthas that:

Survial>sex
Juicy steak>sex
Good night sleep>sex

Its only in our western culture that sex is repressed from one side and yet at the same time we are constantly bombarded with advertisements and other things  saying how much we should be having it, sex sells after all in our world. Probably does not sell for that much in Zalanthas, its  why a whore in zalanthas is a job that should be looked up to, i mean if sex in zalanthas is as common as going to the washroom imagine actually being to sell that for a living. Its like we can all act to some extent but how many of us can be proffesional actors for a living. Therefore in Zalanthas concubine would be a celebrity and someone constantly wanting or thinking about having sex is the equivilent of them having diarrhea in our world.  

Just some thoughts,think i might have gone slightly off topic, i apologize in advance, feel free to disregard :wink:

[EvilRoeSlade]

A lot of people get so obsessed with how harsh Zalanthas is supposed to be that that ends up being the response to everything. Can people fall in love? No. Zalanthas is too harsh. Everyone just wants everyone for sex. Can people have real friendships? No. Too harsh. Everyone betrays everyone. Can someone be genuinely kind? No. Too harsh. It's just an act to trick you into sex and betrayal.

The tears of a Zalanthan can cure cancer.  Too bad Zalanthans never cry.

A Zalanthan once ate an entire 32 ounce kank steak in the span of one hour.  She spent the first forty-five minutes betraying the kank.

Superman once created a character on Armageddon and played for a half hour.  Superman then cried himself to sleep.

There is no endangered species list.  There's just a list of creatures that Zalanthans haven't yet had the chance to betray.

[Anonymous]

wow.

totally my new sig

[Dalmeth]

Here's one for you : the perfect traitor always finds a knife in his back.

Zalanthas is harsh.  It's not harsh because everyone betrays eachother, it's harsh because no one feels any loyalty beyond themselves and their immediate group.  It's just a narrower focus than what we're used to.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

The fight for survival on Zalanthas is not an 'every waking moment' thing for a decent percentage of the population

This seems right, especially in certain places.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Do families (other than nobles and their offspring templars) even concern themselves with lineages? Seems like nearly all PCs go around with only a forename. That would suggest to me that if clarification is needed, your character would say "I'm Amos, son of Amos, of Red Storm".

[Marauder Moe]

I think family names for commoners are optional.  Some of my characters had them, some didn't (and just called themselves Son of <father>).

I'd actually consider mentioning a surname for a commoner introduction would be kind of silly/snooty.  Unless your family has repute, don't invoke their name as though it did.

Also, among PCs at least, there's a huge variety of names and people don't often run into another with the same name.  If they did, then it would make more sense to use surnames.

[Gimfalisette]

Do families (other than nobles and their offspring templars) even concern themselves with lineages? Seems like nearly all PCs go around with only a forename. That would suggest to me that if clarification is needed, your character would say "I'm Amos, son of Amos, of Red Storm".

Bards who are born into the Poet's Circle in Tuluk have the surnames of the Circle they are born into. So, the master bard NPCs are mostly Joe Konviwedu, Amos Driamusek, etc., because they were born into those names.

Merchant houses, of course, their family members have the last name of Kadius, Kurac, etc. And they are commoners.

Tribals may have last names, I dunno.

Other than that, I can't think of other commoner groups with last names.

[Barzalene]

I think the idea of jealousy in a polygamist society raises interesting questions. I would guess that how much the object of one's affections seems to like other people would be of more import than where their private bits have been. Being one of four husbands is probably much nicer when you know you are the favorite husband.

[Gimfalisette]

I was actually thinking about the issue of jealousy today in an RP sense. I believe that behaviorally speaking, it's motivated by a fear of resource scarcity, said resource being the romantic partner.

A little bit of marital relationship theory. My favorite marriage theorist says that Person A falls in love with Person B because Person B meets Person A's most important emotional needs. And vice versa. However, everyone has their own priority of most important emotional needs, and those will be any three to five of these:

-- Admiration (saying nice things to boost the ego)
-- Affection (holding hands, gentle touches, kissing, hugging)
-- Attractiveness (specifically their physical attractiveness as defined by society)
-- Conversation (enjoying talking together)
-- Domestic Support (taking care of me through housework, cooking)
-- Family Support (spending time with the kids, making family a priority)
-- Financial Support (will this person take care of me financially)
-- Honesty and Openness (willingness to reveal true information about self history, current thoughts and activities, future plans)
-- Recreational Companionship (doing fun things together)
-- Sex (not just having it, but wanting it, and keeping it lively)

So, there are a number of things on this list which, if Person A has been getting their emotional needs fulfilled by Person B, and then Person C enters the picture and by hogging Person B's attention reduces the supply of fulfillment to Person A...Person A is going to get jealous.

For a real-world example, very often in a married couple when a wife begins an extramarital affair, she stops having sex with her husband. If one of the husband's most important emotional needs is having sex with his wife, well, now his supply has been cut off.

So what I'm saying is, jealousy isn't -just- a product of our Judeo-Christian ethos. I think it's actually about resource scarcity even more than that.

And I don't think it's enough to say, "Well, it's OK in Zalanthas to be polygamous." Yes, it is. However, Person B is still a finite resource. And if Person A really, really liked what they were getting from Person B, the best answer to the situation might be to get rid of Person C rather than just go out and find themselves a Person D. If you can eat all the vanilla ice cream you want, but you really want that one scoop of chocolate ice cream and it's the only scoop in the whole world, then you're going to fight over that resource with whoever is trying to take it from you.

Jealousy is a rational and logical product of resource scarcity, is my argument here.

[Barzalene]

I don't think we're saying completely different things. I think that Zalanthans are as prone to jealousy as Terrans, but I think the jealously would not be triggered the by the same circumstances or rationalized with the same arguments IE:
Earth: I'm jealous because Bob is sleeping with Sue.
Zalanthas: I'm jealous because since Bob started sleeping with Sue he's sleeping with me less often.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, I understood you, Barzalene. I was elaborating on what you said. And I actually think the reasons for jealousy are exactly the same on Earth and on Zalanthas: Resource scarcity. Except on Earth, we rationalize jealousy and say, "It's because it is morally wrong," or "It's because I'm afraid Bob doesn't love me anymore," or "What will the neighbors think?" or whatever other reason that's not actually the root of things. It's a pretty lie to cover up the harsh practicality of why we really feel the way we do. "I don't want Bob screwing around because when he does he spends a lot of money on gifts and it messes with my financial security." "I don't want Betty screwing around because I depend on her to do the dishes and cook my dinner, and when she's having sex with other men she's not home to do those things." See? Just not romantic, so we make up pretty lies.

[Gimfalisette]

Forgot one thing: I do think jealousy would be triggered by exactly the same circumstances on Zalanthas as they are on Earth, since I'm contending that jealousy is about resource scarcity. In fact, jealousy might even potentially be a lot more scary on Zalanthas, and more easily triggered, if there is not a prior agreement between the partners as to how and where and when the shared resources of the couple are to be spent. (Shared resources being bodies, coin, food, time, energy, effort, etc.)

[Barzalene]

Yes. Complete agreement.

BUT...

We have to be missing something, because it's a society where polygamy not only happens, it apparently works and is common. So, there jealosy threshold must be higher, somehow, for some reason.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Don't forget, if the person (or persons) you kank most regularly are also kanking around without much discression, there's the possibility they're going to pick up something nasty, and pass it on. Sadly, not codedly, but the fear of virtual STD's ought to still be present in some.  :wink:  Which isn't necessarily a jealousy thing, but still a good reason not to want the people you're kanking kanking around a whole lot.

[Gimfalisette]

Polygamy is not an issue if there is no claim on each other between sex partners. If there is no "ownership," then there is no resource that you're able to claim anyways. No ownership means no value to you, so you don't care what the other person does with their body or time.

Polygamy is also not an issue if partners (mates) who are claiming an "ownership" in each other have a prior agreement as to how their shared resources are spent. (You can have sex with that person, but no buying them gifts or food, and you still need to have sex with me.) Value is not being lost in this case.

Jealousy will/can/should enter when someone is encroaching on your territory and threatening to steal something valuable to you.

[Gimfalisette]

Don't forget, if the person (or persons) you kank most regularly are also kanking around without much discression, there's the possibility they're going to pick up something nasty, and pass it on. Sadly, not codedly, but the fear of virtual STD's ought to still be present in some.  :wink:  Which isn't necessarily a jealousy thing, but still a good reason not to want the people you're kanking kanking around a whole lot.

I agree with this, but I'll present it as a resource issue too. If you give me a disease because you slept around, then you are potentially devaluing my property (my body) and maybe even threatening a total property loss (death). Not getting a disease is a valuable thing.

[spawnloser]

My theory, going with this 'resource scarcity' arguement, is that Zalanthans are more likely to simply go find more resources than quibble over the resource already being shared.

[Gimfalisette]

My theory, going with this 'resource scarcity' arguement, is that Zalanthans are more likely to simply go find more resources than quibble over the resource already being shared.

Depends on whether there's anything out there that's better than what you've already got.

-- If your top emotional need is that your partner be physically attractive, and in your opinion you're already with the hottest guy/gal in town, then you'll have to downgrade if you find someone else and be less satisfied.
-- If your top emotional need is financial security and you're already partnered to someone at the top of the economic food chain, then you'll have to downgrade and be less satisfied.
-- If your top emotional need is admiration, and your partner is the one person in the world you've ever met that can say exactly the right things and make you feel like king/queen, then anyone else will be a downgrade and less satisfying.
-- If your top emotional need is conversation, and you've never met anyone you clicked with better than your partner, and there's no one else you'd want to spend entire nights talking to, then anyone else will be a downgrade.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that romantic relationships are just about sex, because they are far more complex than that. This thread was titled "true love," and so I've been talking about the emotional feelings of romantic love all along, not just sex. Sex is an important part, but it's not the only part of getting one's emotional needs met through a romantic relationship.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I agree with this, but I'll present it as a resource issue too. If you give me a disease because you slept around, then you are potentially devaluing my property (my body) and maybe even threatening a total property loss (death). Not getting a disease is a valuable thing.

Agreed.

My theory, going with this 'resource scarcity' arguement, is that Zalanthans are more likely to simply go find more resources than quibble over the resource already being shared.

And that's true, if you know the person you were kanking caught something it's time to move on, but it doesn't always mean it's apparent. If you don't actually know they've got something, and they pass it on to you, some of the diseases may be hard, expensive, or impossible to cure. So if you really happen to be fond of whatever a certain person is doing for you, don't think they're diseased (yet), it makes sense you don't want to trade them off just yet, if you can simply be sure that they, and also you, are safe from a nasty case of crotchrot simply by knowing they aren't kanking around a lot. So if you look at the other people as the resource yeah you can move on. If you're counting your own health as the resource, that's a little more tricky.

[Barzalene]

I would assume that in Zalanthas that "true love" and more than one mate are not mutually exclusive, and not just about sex.

[Pantoufle]

There is absolutely nothing unrealistic about a Zalanthan being jealous/outraged that their "partner" is sleeping with another person.  Even if this is for no other reason than that they are simply sleeping with another person.  This whole "resources" argument sounds like a fantastic farce, if you ask me.

I realize there is a large populace of gamers here who seem inexorably fixated on playing Arm as one gigantic bisexual orgy festival where nobody has partners at all and anything goes, but the reality is that even in Neanderthal societies, men and women both might be jealous if their partner were with another person.  This has nothing to do with resources or whatever other smoke screen you care to suspend before yourself and others.  Human(oid)s generally don't like sharing because they want to pass on their own genes.  This is why, in the animal kingdom, male lions might kill the offending offspring of a mother lioness: so that the lioness will mate with him and his progeny will continue.

So what I don't agree with are statements like:

Earth: I'm jealous because Bob is sleeping with Sue.
Zalanthas: I'm jealous because since Bob started sleeping with Sue he's sleeping with me less often.

I see nothing wrong with someone on Zalanthas being jealous because their partner is simply sleeping with another person and that's that.  You roleplay jealousy how you see fit with your character and I'll do the same with mine.  Zalanthas is not this massive polygomist realm where everyone is wantonly sleeping with everyone else and there are no "couples" whatsoever.  Love, along with the entire spectrum of real world human emotions, can unquestionably exist in Zalanthas, harsh world or not.

[Barzalene]

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want to make a distinction. I don't think that polygamy and promiscurity are synonyomous. So, just because people are in theory (I've yet to see it in game) grouped up, rather than paired up, doesn't mean that the bond isn't as tight or exclusive as a marriage.

But I just don't think the interesting question is does it happen? I think the more interesting discussion is, how does it work?

[InsertCleverNameHere]

((a lot of stuff))

I'm not really arguing that.. But.. Maybe I misread it, but that seems like an almost overly angry response to a conversation based mostly on casual theories.

Personally? I've had characters fall in love, truly madly deeply, and all that. I've had characters using sex as more of a source for snaring attention of someone for reasons other than affection, and be jealous when the person was sleeping with someone else. Reason being, the other person my PC's lover was sleeping with them, was the same reason mine was. I've had PC's not understand the true concept of love at all, they couldn't understand such a wierd phenomenon. The resources arguement is just one reason, to my mind, as to why you may not want someone kanking the entire city. Not the only one.

edited to add: Oh yeah.. and these giant bisexual orgies? How come I wasn't invited?  :wink:

[Gimfalisette]

There is absolutely nothing unrealistic about a Zalanthan being jealous/outraged that their "partner" is sleeping with another person.  Even if this is for no other reason than that they are simply sleeping with another person.  This whole "resources" argument sounds like a fantastic farce, if you ask me.

Think it's a crazy idea if you'd like. However, it's not something I just dreamed up. I've got a degree from the University of California at Berkeley in Anthropology, plus I studied psychology, history, and other relevant subjects extensively in college. For the last four years I've been studying marriage in an academic sense. Also I've been married for 13 years (cumulative, two marriages) of my adult life. Jealousy, "cheating," love, emotional attachment, marriage, cultural meaning of social forms, all of this is subject area in which I'm an active student and have a lot of life experience.

Romantic love and jealousy are not just about gooey feelings, period. They are far more complex than that, and they deserve more explanation than just "no other reason than that they are simply sleeping with another person." And in fact, if you read my arguments carefully, you will see that they are not anti-monogamy or anti-love in any way at all. They just provide a rational, logical basis for human emotions, which is the purview of the social sciences.

[LauraMars]

Pantoufle does not strike me as angry, rather aggressively eloquent.

[amoeba]

edited to add: Oh yeah.. and these giant bisexual orgies? How come I wasn't invited?  :wink:

Giant bisexual orgies actually sound a little painful.

[Gimfalisette]

Pantoufle does not strike me as angry, rather aggressively eloquent.

I think the part where he said "This has nothing to do with resources or whatever other smoke screen you care to suspend before yourself and others" was actually a fairly ad hominem attack. So yeah, angry.

[LauraMars]

Pantoufle does not strike me as angry, rather aggressively eloquent.

I think the part where he said "This has nothing to do with resources or whatever other smoke screen you care to suspend before yourself and others" was actually a fairly ad hominem attack. So yeah, angry.

Only if you're bothered by that kind of thing on the internet, I suppose.

Back on topic, I'm not advocating worldwide jealousy, just as I'm not advocating worldwide puritanical sex or worldwide bisexual orgies. Each character is an individual, with individual reactions, and should be played as such.  I think Pantoufle's post was meant to point out that jealousy exists, can exist, and has logical reason to - which I agree with, even if my characters normally aren't the jealous type (also a viable option).

[Pantoufle]

I'm not angry at all, that's just the tone I usually use when debating.  However, I've long had the impression from many a poster when the discussion of 'sex' arises that they believe Zalanthas is this world where everyone is sleeping with the next person and to get jealous over one partner sleeping with someone else is a foreign concept.  I don't see that as a Zalanthan "standard".  If that's how your character views jealousy, knock yourself out.  But my characters are certainly not abnormal for being jealous (over anything, not just sex) or having any other perfectly normal HUMAN(oid) emotion.

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not angry at all, that's just the tone I usually use when debating.  However, I've long had the impression from many a poster when the discussion of 'sex' arises that they believe Zalanthas is this world where everyone is sleeping with the next person and to get jealous over one partner sleeping with someone else is a foreign concept.  I don't see that as a Zalanthan "standard".  If that's how your character views jealousy, knock yourself out.  But my characters are certainly not abnormal for being jealous (over anything, not just sex) or having any other perfectly normal HUMAN(oid) emotion.

Please point out to me where I said that jealousy was abnormal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite: That it's logical, rational, and to be expected.

And LauraMars, the definition of an ad hominem argument/attack is not whether or not it upsets someone. It's that it is "against the person" (that is, the person making the argument) rather than "against the argument." Ad hominem arguments are generally considered to be a pretty lame, although effective, debate strategy. To say "whatever smokescreen you care to suspend between yourself and others" is to imply "you lack the ability to make real human connections," thus it's an ad hominem argument and has nothing to do with the real matter at debate.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Okay well. I take it back then. Personally, angry/aggressive people intimidate me, so Pantoufle's debating may have just put me off. That aside, jealousy/love differ from PC to PC for me. Just about as much as racial phobias, loyalist (or treasonist) attitudes, etc. Which is to say, I try to make a change with each new PC.

And um.. just to clarify...

:oops:

edited to add: Oh yeah.. and these giant bisexual orgies? How come I wasn't invited?  :wink:

Giant bisexual orgies actually sound a little painful.

Perhaps I should have worded that differently.  :oops:  :wink:
Bite me, amoeba.  :wink:

[bloodfromstone]

I do have to agree with Pantoufle, regardless of his tone. I have seen a lot of people act like exactly what he is describing (everyone sleeping with everyone with no one caring) be the norm. I have had people act as though my PC is insane for being jealous, even though the documents state that polygamy is not uncommon, not that everyone is that way. I do agree that some people seem to want the place to be a giant bisexual orgy. I think it's silly and uninteresting, for me. Relationships, romance, love, and sex are all very important parts of human (or whatever) life, and therefore an important part of roleplaying a human's life. If all there is to it is hot mudsex for everyone with no consequences, then it becomes completely uninteresting and unimportant.

I know this isn't directly related to the topic at hand, and I know that this isn't what a lot of you are saying now. I just figured I'd throw in and state that I know where Pantoufle is coming from.

[Anonymous]

I have never been able to see polygamy any more or less prevalent then any other relationship family stucture in Zalanthas.Part of me actually thinks polygamy would be slightly harder to achive. I think its because in whatever relationship the person is in doesn't nessasarily mean they won't have ocational sex with some stranger. So sex aside, whats left? Trust, resources and possibly love...finding people to feck is easy, finding people to share those three things however would be alot harder to find in one's lifetime.

Also joining an established family is very hard. Polygamist relationship probably range in the 3-6 number of people in the actual relationship, i really don't see them being huge families. I also see it be more like two brothers or two sisters entering in a relationship with a rich merchant. Again trust and resources being a huge factors.  

Then there are the facts of survival, the woman has to trust that the male won't run off soon as he hears she is pregnant and he has to trust that the child won't be born with pointy ears.  If he or she is not spending enough time with you or giving someone else too much attention, its understandable jealousy begining to set in.

So in a way i do agree with Gimfalisette and Barzalene, though i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters....one husband and three lovers on the side seems better to me but i could just have a narrow mind on the subject  :oops:

[Gimfalisette]

...i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters...

To continue with my argument about romantic relationships being based on a trade of emotional support resources , when a wife says this about her husband, what she is actually saying is, "I feel like I put a lot more into this relationship than I get out of it already, so why would I want one or two more relationships just like this?" Husbands can say the same thing, of course; there are plenty of men who feel that they're the only giver in the relationship.

[Gimfalisette]

Relationships, romance, love, and sex are all very important parts of human (or whatever) life, and therefore an important part of roleplaying a human's life. If all there is to it is hot mudsex for everyone with no consequences, then it becomes completely uninteresting and unimportant.

I absolutely, 100% agree with this. Characters who never have any relationships of any type, or who never have any depth to their relationships, are definitely going to be less-interesting than they might otherwise be.

Just to add, I also have a very deep interest in analyzing why my character might do a particular thing (fall in love, get jealous, have sex with only one person, have sex with a lot of people, or any other behavior). I am an analyst by profession and talent, so these types of questions are fascinating to me. I'm never personally satisfied by explaining anything about my character as "she's just that way," or "it's normal for people," or "because I like that." (Although those are perfectly good reasons, they are just not satisfying to me.) That's why I bothered to put my theory of jealousy out there at all; because there might be other people like me who are interested in that type of analysis.

I analyze because I like to analyze, it makes things more fun for me, and because it's how I understand my character. In Real Life, I am often able to pass as an "empathetic" person because I have learned to pick up on social clues by analysis. However, I'm about the most unempathetic person around, as my husband can attest. I have to do similar things with roleplay so that I can play a consistent, interesting character.

[Barzalene]

I have never been able to see polygamy any more or less prevalent then any other relationship family stucture in Zalanthas.Part of me actually thinks polygamy would be slightly harder to achive. I think its because in whatever relationship the person is in doesn't nessasarily mean they won't have ocational sex with some stranger. So sex aside, whats left? Trust, resources and possibly love...finding people to feck is easy, finding people to share those three things however would be alot harder to find in one's lifetime.



So in a way i do agree with Gimfalisette and Barzalene, though i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters....one husband and three lovers on the side seems better to me but i could just have a narrow mind on the subject  :oops:

Here's the thing. I know what a couple looks like, how the function and the expected dynamics. So, for me it's not something that's particularly crucial discussion (Which doesn't mean you all can't discuss.) But since polygamy is common on Zalanthas, and I don't know how that would work, I think it's worth some discussion on the GDB. How does Polygamy (not random promiscurity) work? Where does jealousy fit in? Where does true love fit in? What is normalacy in a multiperson relationship?

[Gimfalisette]

How does Polygamy (not random promiscurity) work? Where does jealousy fit in? Where does true love fit in? What is normalacy in a multiperson relationship?

Possible scenarios out of a bazillion:

"Hey, I really would like to have sex with you on a regular basis, I think you're neat. However, I'm not in love with you and I just want to stay friends. Is that cool with you?"

"Hey, I think I'm in love with you. For the time being, until we decide whether or not we want to mate for life, how about if we just don't have sex with other people. Sound good?"

"Hey, I want to have babies and I want to do that with you. Let's make a family unit. I'd also like to get a couple more parents/partners into the family to spread the burden of care around. You dig?"

"Hey, I want to have babies with you, but I'm not interested in me having sex with other people or you having sex with other people. What do you think about that?"

Then the partners make an agreement and move on from there.

Polygamy in Zalanthas, if it's not just random promiscuity, is either going to be a negotiated, agreed-on thing, or it -will- open the door to jealousy and disagreement about "the rules." Polygamous relationships on Earth operate by rules too, either culturally-standardized or by agreement of the participating mates. When people break the rules, there tend to be consequences.

True love fits in wherever you want to put it. I have three children, I love each of them truly, madly, deeply. In theory, I could truly love more than one husband. If I was insane and wanted to do three times more work than I already do

[bloodfromstone]

I've known a few people who were poly in my time. It is very complicated, and I'm not entirely sure I understand it. Here is the way I understand it from the most well-adjusted of the poly people I have known:

First and foremost, everyone involved understands that the relationship is open. Even if one person in it is not interested in other people, they know from the get go that the other person is and will be involved with others. If one of the lovers (I don't really know what else to call them) involved has a desire to have the poly person all to themselves, then the relationship ends. It cannot work for either party, so they part ways.

An interesting part is that the poly person finds a number of needs satisfied from a number of people. It is not simply that they like sleeping with/going out with/whatevering with a lot of people. Each person has a special purpose in the relationship. Maybe Susan and Bob have great conversation. They get along really well, sort of like close buddies, but are more than that. They still do other couply stuff, but the main thing they find from one another is great company. Susan and Jaime have incredible sex, however. Jaime and Susan satisfy each other's sexual needs quite well, so that aspect of the relationship is good. Jaime likes the sex, and he and Susan get along well enough, but Susan is sort of a homebody. Jaime would rather go out with Bertha, who enjoys roller blading and bow hunting, when she's not busy having her name made fun of.

I could go on and on, but I think that gets the general point across. The idea is, and it's not always easy to achieve, that everyone is familiar and comfortable with their contribution to the relationship. Susan isn't jealous that Jaime has so much fun with Bertha, because her need for company is filled by Bob.

I hope this makes sense. I don't fully understand it, myself, and I don't mean to say that just because my friend in rl does it this way that that is the only way or the Zalanthan way. This is just my experience and understanding of that sort of relationship.

[bloodfromstone]

Yack. Double post.

[Gimfalisette]

bloodfromstone - It's all pretty negotiated and open and right-out-there for discussion, though, isn't it? That's been my understanding of research that I've done into polyamory. Talking about the structure and negotiating agreements and expectations is the key to avoiding jealousy. Like what you said at the beginning--the relationship can't go anywhere if the two people have different expectations as to how it will operate.

Sheesh, regular-old monogamous marriage is like that too. You get nowhere if you don't talk about who does the dishes, who's picking the kids up today, who's paying the bills, how often should we have sex, where should we have sex, what kind of sex, what kind of leisure activities should we do, yadda yadda yadda.

[Barzalene]

I guess I just thought in a polymous relationship that not not only would Bob and Susan have a structured relationship but Bob and Jaimie and Bertha would also be part of that relationship (not necessarily sexually.)

[bloodfromstone]

Gimfalisette- Yeah, it is all very out in the open. I think it has to be to work successfully. I know there are probably poly relationships that aren't as well negotiated, and I imagine it reflects in their success.

Barzalene- Not necessarily, from my experience. It can certainly happen that way, especially if the relationship webs out of a close group of friends, but it is entirely possible to have never really met one of your girl/boyfriend's lovers.

Again, just to clarify, I speak only from second-hand experience here, and all of this is very Earthen, so things may be, and probably should be, very different in game.

[Gimfalisette]

I guess I just thought in a polymous relationship that not not only would Bob and Susan have a structured relationship but Bob and Jaimie and Bertha would also be part of that relationship.

They might be, or they might not be, depending on the agreements between the various people. My understanding of polyamorous people is that they will often have a "primary" partner, and then maybe a "secondary" partner, and then some tertiary for-fun relationships. They do make commitments, but don't necessarily have the same level of commitment with each person they're partnering/having sex with.

What you're talking about is "group marriage" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_marriage and it's actually very rare in human societies, and not very successful when it's been tried experimentally as a Utopian ideal kind of thing. Polygamy more typically takes the form of polygyny (one husband, many wives--fairly common) or polyandry (one wife, many husbands--very rare).

[Gimfalisette]

Again, just to clarify, I speak only from second-hand experience here, and all of this is very Earthen, so things may be, and probably should be, very different in game.

But if we're talking about human emotions and all that, I'm not sure that things actually can be different in Zalanthas, other than the obvious fact that there is no prejudice against OR bias toward whatever kind of structure people want to put on their love lives.  Just like on Earth, I'd think that in Zalanthas if people don't negotiate this stuff, but sneak around and do whatever and leave themselves open to misunderstanding, there will be trouble. Humans are still humans, right?

[Dre]

I don't see polyandry as being that uncommon or common but still yet still very possible in Zalanthas. I can see a man and woman in a relationship raising children, who want to advance financially for example, potenially want another man to join the relationship as opposed to another woman. Why? Because another man would only bring in resources and just his mouth to feed, where as a woman might end up having more children of her own and adding financial stress.

Oh well doesn't matter...just because after reading all the points made, it seems to me they all make sense and all can be found in Zalanthas. Some relationships or feelings might be more common then others, which exactly are, no one could really say i guess. Polygamy, Monogamy and any famiy structure one can think of probably exsists and isn't less common or strange then the other. That being said jealousy, lust and love are most likely part of the equations.Its possible someone is hurt because they caught someone sleeping with someone else behind they back, because maybe they loved them and didnt want to share. Maybe someone is angry because they other person isn't sleep with the someone who can make better babies. Maybe some people value sex and love, others don't give a damn.

When it comes to relationships and love, feeling in general i guess in Zalanthas almost nothing (except maybe human and elf relationships) is looked down upon or considered strange in to its society...nothing is considered common or uncommon. At the end of the day, unlike us earthings no one in zalanthas really cares what their neighbour does in their bedrooms.

Now is this actually true, can demographics and statistics backed with reasonable and plausable agruments be made? Of course. However as other have pointed out before me, I kind of like the idea there is almost unlimited spectrum when it comes to this. It just makes for a more interesting world to be RPing in.

Anyways that said, some damn good arguements and posts have been made, its been alot good and interesting reading.

[Angela Christine]

Jealousy is complex, and not just about one thing, I think.


In a society where monogamy is the rule a new party doesn't just have the threat that you will get less of your partner, but that you will lose your partner entirely.  A new lover potentially leads to divorce, custody battles, the division of property, and lots of other grim things.  So I think that part of jealousy in a monogamous society is the fear of losing your partner, and with him/her losing your whole life: you lose income, you lose your home, you lose your family, you lose your old-age plans, and so on.

I think there could be slightly less jealousy in a society where having extra lovers (long term or short term) doesn't have to spell the end of the relationship and the break up of the family.  Not zero jealousy, but less than in a society where monogamy is considered the only proper path.  That doesn't mean that you would always be happy if your mate wants to pick up another long term mate, or short term gf/bf, but it isn't a catastrophic failure of the relationship.




The the loss of resources and attention would still apply to some degree though, at least for most people.  People can and do become jealous of things that do not threaten the primary relationship.  You can be jealous of your spouses career, their friends, or even the time they spend with their computer.   :twisted:   It is common for men to become jealous of their own newborn children, and feel horrible and guilty about it, when their lady friend goes from being their wife to being junior's mother.  Suddenly he's not the most important person in her life anymore.  If you can be jealous of your own kids, you can certainly be jealous of an extra wife or husband.



Zalanthas certainly isn't a Utopian society where everyone gets along.  But I think one advantage they do have is the expectation of flexibility.  Whatever happens, you deal with it.  So if after being together for 10 years and having 3 kids your husband decides that he is gay, that doesn't have to mean that your marriage is over and your rosy retirement plans are scuttled.  Some couples will break up, but some will decide to just deal with it, let the guy find a male mate as well and stay together in one home as a family, and the neighbours will be happy either way.  The reaction of the neighbours (society) is important.  In America if you let your spouse's gf or bf move in and join the family the neighbours will be shocked and you will all be subjected to scorn, contempt and even shunning, and your kids will get teased about it when they go to school.  Icky.   In Zalanthas most people won't care who you live with, who you have sex with, or who you don't have sex with.  


Angela Christine


Ps.  I used the terms spouse, husband, wife, etc., for convienence and brevity.  "Wife" is just easier to type than "long term female sexual partner anc co-parent."