True Love

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not angry at all, that's just the tone I usually use when debating.  However, I've long had the impression from many a poster when the discussion of 'sex' arises that they believe Zalanthas is this world where everyone is sleeping with the next person and to get jealous over one partner sleeping with someone else is a foreign concept.  I don't see that as a Zalanthan "standard".  If that's how your character views jealousy, knock yourself out.  But my characters are certainly not abnormal for being jealous (over anything, not just sex) or having any other perfectly normal HUMAN(oid) emotion.

Please point out to me where I said that jealousy was abnormal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite: That it's logical, rational, and to be expected.

And LauraMars, the definition of an ad hominem argument/attack is not whether or not it upsets someone. It's that it is "against the person" (that is, the person making the argument) rather than "against the argument." Ad hominem arguments are generally considered to be a pretty lame, although effective, debate strategy. To say "whatever smokescreen you care to suspend between yourself and others" is to imply "you lack the ability to make real human connections," thus it's an ad hominem argument and has nothing to do with the real matter at debate.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Okay well. I take it back then. Personally, angry/aggressive people intimidate me, so Pantoufle's debating may have just put me off. That aside, jealousy/love differ from PC to PC for me. Just about as much as racial phobias, loyalist (or treasonist) attitudes, etc. Which is to say, I try to make a change with each new PC.

And um.. just to clarify...

:oops:

edited to add: Oh yeah.. and these giant bisexual orgies? How come I wasn't invited?  :wink:

Giant bisexual orgies actually sound a little painful.

Perhaps I should have worded that differently.  :oops:  :wink:
Bite me, amoeba.  :wink:

[bloodfromstone]

I do have to agree with Pantoufle, regardless of his tone. I have seen a lot of people act like exactly what he is describing (everyone sleeping with everyone with no one caring) be the norm. I have had people act as though my PC is insane for being jealous, even though the documents state that polygamy is not uncommon, not that everyone is that way. I do agree that some people seem to want the place to be a giant bisexual orgy. I think it's silly and uninteresting, for me. Relationships, romance, love, and sex are all very important parts of human (or whatever) life, and therefore an important part of roleplaying a human's life. If all there is to it is hot mudsex for everyone with no consequences, then it becomes completely uninteresting and unimportant.

I know this isn't directly related to the topic at hand, and I know that this isn't what a lot of you are saying now. I just figured I'd throw in and state that I know where Pantoufle is coming from.

[Anonymous]

I have never been able to see polygamy any more or less prevalent then any other relationship family stucture in Zalanthas.Part of me actually thinks polygamy would be slightly harder to achive. I think its because in whatever relationship the person is in doesn't nessasarily mean they won't have ocational sex with some stranger. So sex aside, whats left? Trust, resources and possibly love...finding people to feck is easy, finding people to share those three things however would be alot harder to find in one's lifetime.

Also joining an established family is very hard. Polygamist relationship probably range in the 3-6 number of people in the actual relationship, i really don't see them being huge families. I also see it be more like two brothers or two sisters entering in a relationship with a rich merchant. Again trust and resources being a huge factors.  

Then there are the facts of survival, the woman has to trust that the male won't run off soon as he hears she is pregnant and he has to trust that the child won't be born with pointy ears.  If he or she is not spending enough time with you or giving someone else too much attention, its understandable jealousy begining to set in.

So in a way i do agree with Gimfalisette and Barzalene, though i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters....one husband and three lovers on the side seems better to me but i could just have a narrow mind on the subject  :oops:

[Gimfalisette]

...i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters...

To continue with my argument about romantic relationships being based on a trade of emotional support resources , when a wife says this about her husband, what she is actually saying is, "I feel like I put a lot more into this relationship than I get out of it already, so why would I want one or two more relationships just like this?" Husbands can say the same thing, of course; there are plenty of men who feel that they're the only giver in the relationship.

[Gimfalisette]

Relationships, romance, love, and sex are all very important parts of human (or whatever) life, and therefore an important part of roleplaying a human's life. If all there is to it is hot mudsex for everyone with no consequences, then it becomes completely uninteresting and unimportant.

I absolutely, 100% agree with this. Characters who never have any relationships of any type, or who never have any depth to their relationships, are definitely going to be less-interesting than they might otherwise be.

Just to add, I also have a very deep interest in analyzing why my character might do a particular thing (fall in love, get jealous, have sex with only one person, have sex with a lot of people, or any other behavior). I am an analyst by profession and talent, so these types of questions are fascinating to me. I'm never personally satisfied by explaining anything about my character as "she's just that way," or "it's normal for people," or "because I like that." (Although those are perfectly good reasons, they are just not satisfying to me.) That's why I bothered to put my theory of jealousy out there at all; because there might be other people like me who are interested in that type of analysis.

I analyze because I like to analyze, it makes things more fun for me, and because it's how I understand my character. In Real Life, I am often able to pass as an "empathetic" person because I have learned to pick up on social clues by analysis. However, I'm about the most unempathetic person around, as my husband can attest. I have to do similar things with roleplay so that I can play a consistent, interesting character.

[Barzalene]

I have never been able to see polygamy any more or less prevalent then any other relationship family stucture in Zalanthas.Part of me actually thinks polygamy would be slightly harder to achive. I think its because in whatever relationship the person is in doesn't nessasarily mean they won't have ocational sex with some stranger. So sex aside, whats left? Trust, resources and possibly love...finding people to feck is easy, finding people to share those three things however would be alot harder to find in one's lifetime.



So in a way i do agree with Gimfalisette and Barzalene, though i did hear a female friend once say she barely needs one husband let only two, four might not help matters....one husband and three lovers on the side seems better to me but i could just have a narrow mind on the subject  :oops:

Here's the thing. I know what a couple looks like, how the function and the expected dynamics. So, for me it's not something that's particularly crucial discussion (Which doesn't mean you all can't discuss.) But since polygamy is common on Zalanthas, and I don't know how that would work, I think it's worth some discussion on the GDB. How does Polygamy (not random promiscurity) work? Where does jealousy fit in? Where does true love fit in? What is normalacy in a multiperson relationship?

[Gimfalisette]

How does Polygamy (not random promiscurity) work? Where does jealousy fit in? Where does true love fit in? What is normalacy in a multiperson relationship?

Possible scenarios out of a bazillion:

"Hey, I really would like to have sex with you on a regular basis, I think you're neat. However, I'm not in love with you and I just want to stay friends. Is that cool with you?"

"Hey, I think I'm in love with you. For the time being, until we decide whether or not we want to mate for life, how about if we just don't have sex with other people. Sound good?"

"Hey, I want to have babies and I want to do that with you. Let's make a family unit. I'd also like to get a couple more parents/partners into the family to spread the burden of care around. You dig?"

"Hey, I want to have babies with you, but I'm not interested in me having sex with other people or you having sex with other people. What do you think about that?"

Then the partners make an agreement and move on from there.

Polygamy in Zalanthas, if it's not just random promiscuity, is either going to be a negotiated, agreed-on thing, or it -will- open the door to jealousy and disagreement about "the rules." Polygamous relationships on Earth operate by rules too, either culturally-standardized or by agreement of the participating mates. When people break the rules, there tend to be consequences.

True love fits in wherever you want to put it. I have three children, I love each of them truly, madly, deeply. In theory, I could truly love more than one husband. If I was insane and wanted to do three times more work than I already do

[bloodfromstone]

I've known a few people who were poly in my time. It is very complicated, and I'm not entirely sure I understand it. Here is the way I understand it from the most well-adjusted of the poly people I have known:

First and foremost, everyone involved understands that the relationship is open. Even if one person in it is not interested in other people, they know from the get go that the other person is and will be involved with others. If one of the lovers (I don't really know what else to call them) involved has a desire to have the poly person all to themselves, then the relationship ends. It cannot work for either party, so they part ways.

An interesting part is that the poly person finds a number of needs satisfied from a number of people. It is not simply that they like sleeping with/going out with/whatevering with a lot of people. Each person has a special purpose in the relationship. Maybe Susan and Bob have great conversation. They get along really well, sort of like close buddies, but are more than that. They still do other couply stuff, but the main thing they find from one another is great company. Susan and Jaime have incredible sex, however. Jaime and Susan satisfy each other's sexual needs quite well, so that aspect of the relationship is good. Jaime likes the sex, and he and Susan get along well enough, but Susan is sort of a homebody. Jaime would rather go out with Bertha, who enjoys roller blading and bow hunting, when she's not busy having her name made fun of.

I could go on and on, but I think that gets the general point across. The idea is, and it's not always easy to achieve, that everyone is familiar and comfortable with their contribution to the relationship. Susan isn't jealous that Jaime has so much fun with Bertha, because her need for company is filled by Bob.

I hope this makes sense. I don't fully understand it, myself, and I don't mean to say that just because my friend in rl does it this way that that is the only way or the Zalanthan way. This is just my experience and understanding of that sort of relationship.

[bloodfromstone]

Yack. Double post.

[Gimfalisette]

bloodfromstone - It's all pretty negotiated and open and right-out-there for discussion, though, isn't it? That's been my understanding of research that I've done into polyamory. Talking about the structure and negotiating agreements and expectations is the key to avoiding jealousy. Like what you said at the beginning--the relationship can't go anywhere if the two people have different expectations as to how it will operate.

Sheesh, regular-old monogamous marriage is like that too. You get nowhere if you don't talk about who does the dishes, who's picking the kids up today, who's paying the bills, how often should we have sex, where should we have sex, what kind of sex, what kind of leisure activities should we do, yadda yadda yadda.

[Barzalene]

I guess I just thought in a polymous relationship that not not only would Bob and Susan have a structured relationship but Bob and Jaimie and Bertha would also be part of that relationship (not necessarily sexually.)

[bloodfromstone]

Gimfalisette- Yeah, it is all very out in the open. I think it has to be to work successfully. I know there are probably poly relationships that aren't as well negotiated, and I imagine it reflects in their success.

Barzalene- Not necessarily, from my experience. It can certainly happen that way, especially if the relationship webs out of a close group of friends, but it is entirely possible to have never really met one of your girl/boyfriend's lovers.

Again, just to clarify, I speak only from second-hand experience here, and all of this is very Earthen, so things may be, and probably should be, very different in game.

[Gimfalisette]

I guess I just thought in a polymous relationship that not not only would Bob and Susan have a structured relationship but Bob and Jaimie and Bertha would also be part of that relationship.

They might be, or they might not be, depending on the agreements between the various people. My understanding of polyamorous people is that they will often have a "primary" partner, and then maybe a "secondary" partner, and then some tertiary for-fun relationships. They do make commitments, but don't necessarily have the same level of commitment with each person they're partnering/having sex with.

What you're talking about is "group marriage" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_marriage and it's actually very rare in human societies, and not very successful when it's been tried experimentally as a Utopian ideal kind of thing. Polygamy more typically takes the form of polygyny (one husband, many wives--fairly common) or polyandry (one wife, many husbands--very rare).

[Gimfalisette]

Again, just to clarify, I speak only from second-hand experience here, and all of this is very Earthen, so things may be, and probably should be, very different in game.

But if we're talking about human emotions and all that, I'm not sure that things actually can be different in Zalanthas, other than the obvious fact that there is no prejudice against OR bias toward whatever kind of structure people want to put on their love lives.  Just like on Earth, I'd think that in Zalanthas if people don't negotiate this stuff, but sneak around and do whatever and leave themselves open to misunderstanding, there will be trouble. Humans are still humans, right?

[Dre]

I don't see polyandry as being that uncommon or common but still yet still very possible in Zalanthas. I can see a man and woman in a relationship raising children, who want to advance financially for example, potenially want another man to join the relationship as opposed to another woman. Why? Because another man would only bring in resources and just his mouth to feed, where as a woman might end up having more children of her own and adding financial stress.

Oh well doesn't matter...just because after reading all the points made, it seems to me they all make sense and all can be found in Zalanthas. Some relationships or feelings might be more common then others, which exactly are, no one could really say i guess. Polygamy, Monogamy and any famiy structure one can think of probably exsists and isn't less common or strange then the other. That being said jealousy, lust and love are most likely part of the equations.Its possible someone is hurt because they caught someone sleeping with someone else behind they back, because maybe they loved them and didnt want to share. Maybe someone is angry because they other person isn't sleep with the someone who can make better babies. Maybe some people value sex and love, others don't give a damn.

When it comes to relationships and love, feeling in general i guess in Zalanthas almost nothing (except maybe human and elf relationships) is looked down upon or considered strange in to its society...nothing is considered common or uncommon. At the end of the day, unlike us earthings no one in zalanthas really cares what their neighbour does in their bedrooms.

Now is this actually true, can demographics and statistics backed with reasonable and plausable agruments be made? Of course. However as other have pointed out before me, I kind of like the idea there is almost unlimited spectrum when it comes to this. It just makes for a more interesting world to be RPing in.

Anyways that said, some damn good arguements and posts have been made, its been alot good and interesting reading.

[Angela Christine]

Jealousy is complex, and not just about one thing, I think.


In a society where monogamy is the rule a new party doesn't just have the threat that you will get less of your partner, but that you will lose your partner entirely.  A new lover potentially leads to divorce, custody battles, the division of property, and lots of other grim things.  So I think that part of jealousy in a monogamous society is the fear of losing your partner, and with him/her losing your whole life: you lose income, you lose your home, you lose your family, you lose your old-age plans, and so on.

I think there could be slightly less jealousy in a society where having extra lovers (long term or short term) doesn't have to spell the end of the relationship and the break up of the family.  Not zero jealousy, but less than in a society where monogamy is considered the only proper path.  That doesn't mean that you would always be happy if your mate wants to pick up another long term mate, or short term gf/bf, but it isn't a catastrophic failure of the relationship.




The the loss of resources and attention would still apply to some degree though, at least for most people.  People can and do become jealous of things that do not threaten the primary relationship.  You can be jealous of your spouses career, their friends, or even the time they spend with their computer.   :twisted:   It is common for men to become jealous of their own newborn children, and feel horrible and guilty about it, when their lady friend goes from being their wife to being junior's mother.  Suddenly he's not the most important person in her life anymore.  If you can be jealous of your own kids, you can certainly be jealous of an extra wife or husband.



Zalanthas certainly isn't a Utopian society where everyone gets along.  But I think one advantage they do have is the expectation of flexibility.  Whatever happens, you deal with it.  So if after being together for 10 years and having 3 kids your husband decides that he is gay, that doesn't have to mean that your marriage is over and your rosy retirement plans are scuttled.  Some couples will break up, but some will decide to just deal with it, let the guy find a male mate as well and stay together in one home as a family, and the neighbours will be happy either way.  The reaction of the neighbours (society) is important.  In America if you let your spouse's gf or bf move in and join the family the neighbours will be shocked and you will all be subjected to scorn, contempt and even shunning, and your kids will get teased about it when they go to school.  Icky.   In Zalanthas most people won't care who you live with, who you have sex with, or who you don't have sex with.  


Angela Christine


Ps.  I used the terms spouse, husband, wife, etc., for convienence and brevity.  "Wife" is just easier to type than "long term female sexual partner anc co-parent."