Nobles

[From a Noble Family]

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not intended as a flame or a criticism.  It is not directed at anyone in particular, and is a general observation.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the general attitude toward nobility in the game seems to be that they are just there, occupying space.  It also seems that templars expect nobles to just do anything for them without anything in return, and it seems that commoners don't think nobles can do anything for them.  In general, it seems that no one bothers to even attempt bribing nobles for anything.

Yes, I am fully aware that there are exceptions to my observation.  They seem to be few and far in between, however.  I hope this thread inspires people to bring nobles more into their roleplay.  For all you newer folks who aren't sure how to do it, don't be afraid to approach a noble through their servants.  Nobles can do a lot, and I hope more people see this.

[Dalmeth]

I can sympathize with this view.  I see alot of nobles just sitting around and doing nothing.  Alot of this is due to the separation they are supposed to have from the masses.   Commoners simply don't consider approaching nobles about anything.

[Delirium]

Dalmeth:  How do you know they're doing nothing?

They could be busy with the Way, they could be working on their political contacts.

People seem to equate doing physical work with doing 'something' - not always true.

[Dalmeth]

Huh?  Just sitting there, using the Way is just about as good as doing nothing in regard to the original poster's commentary.  The issue of this post is how commoners have so little interaction with nobles.

Physical work is not the issue.  Meet in person.  It's always more fun to meet in person, anyway.  Besides, you don't make new contacts through the Way, you just manage your own little cadre.

[Malken]

First, I'd never want to play a noble.. The sitting on the couch for hours while everyone around you is having a good time is not too far from reality.

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Born into wealth and power, most nobles expect to be treated with respect by those of inferior or common blood. Their social status allows them to interact with templars as equals, and to expect special consideration from the templarate when it comes to dealing with commoners.

I edited my post because, boy, was I wrong after reading this.. I always thought that Templars were above Nobles, it certainly seem that way to me as I play the game..

[Morfeus]

Second, why would I want to bribe a noble when I can just cut the middle man and go where the real power is, the Templars?

I think this is part of the problem. Are templars really only people with power? Aren't there things nobles could do as well or even things only nobles could do?

One thing I totally agree with: people are not bribing nobles enough. People are not bribing anyone enough, but in case of nobility it is even more visible. Even worse in cases you want the noble to do something for you - why would s/he agree if you offer him nothing for his/her time?

[From a Noble Family]

First, I'd never want to play a noble.. The sitting on the couch for hours while everyone around you is having a good time is not too far from reality.

If you think that that is all nobles do, you are mistaken.

Second, why would I want to bribe a noble when I can just cut the middle man and go where the real power is, the Templars?

This is part of the problem.  Nobles have a great deal of power, and are (at least they should be) much more accessible than templars for this sort of thing.

If it wasn't the case, then I'd certainly see how bribing a noble might be useful.. But for now.. I'm not sure my character would see the point of doing so.

It is unfortunate that you see things that way.  A noble is far more likely than a templar to take an interest in the affairs of a commoner, and far more likely to help with the problems of a commoner.  Let's say you are being harassed by someone, as a general example.  A templar will likely blow you off unless it is something that threatens the security of the city, or his own business.  A noble is far more likely to take interest and stop the person from harassing you.  Why?  Because templars often don't have the time to deal with such matters, and nobles do.

[Hymwen]

In my experience, nobles rarely give you a reason or opportunity to bribe them. Few of my characters have had any significant interaction with nobles, and I've never been in a situation where bribing one would serve any purpose because Templars are the police and nobles tend to not care whatever the hell you do (again, that's from personal experience).

[A Different Noble]

When I first got accepted for a noble role, I vowed that I would always Make Things Happen. I would never sit by myself in a tavern, I would always create roleplay, no one would ever accuse me of "doing nothing".

The sad reality is that sticking to the above is really really hard. It's challenging to be a noble. Your role exists in a large part to create roleplay for others, because you often can't do things directly yourself. You are forced to employ minions to do everything from fetching your mul mix to assassinating your enemies, while you sit around and sip wine waiting for them to get it done. And this isn't a bad thing, but I really don't think critiscising a noble because she isn't visibly outwardly doing something is warranted.

Consider also that many times it simply is hard for nobles to be able to realistically approach commoners about things. I can't even count the number of times this has happened to me:

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The Trader's Sanctuary
     You are sitting here, alone and bored. A bunch of NPCs are in here too but they're all too cool to roleplay with you.

> The tall, muscular man has arrived from above.
You think, oocly:
    "Yay! Another PC is here!"

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> look muscular (with a brief glance)
With a brief glance, you look at the tall muscular man.
This man is tall and muscular and completely common and uninteresting and wearing a bunch of common and uninteresting gear.
The tall muscular man is in excellent condition.
You think, oocly:
    "Hmm, so he's just an average commoner, need to think of a reason to actually care about him.

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>The tall, muscular man looks at you.
*insert a ten second pause here while you're wracking your brain trying to think of something to do with this guy besides turn up your nose and sniff at him*
You think, oocly:
    "I've got it! I'll ask him to --"

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> The tall, muscular man walks up.
You think, oocly:
    "Damn it!"

Okay, so the example was simplified a bit, but my point is that it's harder for nobles to find reasons to approach commoners than it is for commoners to approach nobles. And there are lots of good reasons a commoner could have to do that. But the commoners need to make themselves get noticed. As desperate as you can sometimes be for something to do when playing a noble, ICly your character still needs good reason to burden themself with the peasantry.

[Malken]

Oh, don't get me wrong! I'd really love to be able to bring nobles in my roleplay, but like I said (before I edited my post with the help file on Nobles), I think that currently, where I play, and I've seen this happening for a long while now, Templars are much more accessible and 'friendlier', even helpful, to the population more than Nobles are.. At least that's how I see it, with my current character.

From my point of view, it seems to me that Nobles just want to do their own thing, with their own House members and be left alone.

If you could give us some ideas on why we would want to bribe a noble, I'd be more than happy to try and introduce it in my roleplay.

I would also like to add that in no way do I want to criticise players that take on the role of Nobles.. I've got much respect to anyone that takes on a role that is mostly for creating roleplay opportunities for other players more than for themselves.

[Dalmeth]

The fact is that Templars have a much better image in regard to seeming to care about the average commoner with their role as the police of the city.  They are the enforcers, of course they care about what's going on.

I'd suggest nobles try inviting single commoners over to them and interrogate them on gossip and other trivial matters.  Be condescending as you should be, and try to make them a little uncomfortable.  Make it just seem like you're trying to entertain yourself by poking fun on some random dope from the crowd.

[marko]

When discussing nobility and / or templars please indicate which city you are talking about.

Nobility in Tuluk is fundementally and significantly different than nobility in Allanak.  

In Tuluk, it is expected that nobles are approachable and should be actively attempting to bring more commoners into their realms of influence by assisting them.  That's what patronage is about.

In Allanak, it is slightly more difficult to be directly involved with commoners but it is doable.  You can achieve an awful lot by treating commoners for what they are - toys, pets, or tools.  

I've seen many nobles who expect the game to come to them and power to simply accumulate.  It doesn't work like that in either city.  To gain in prestige, power, and influence you have to earn it and work for it.

[John]

One thing I totally agree with: people are not bribing nobles enough. People are not bribing anyone enough, but in case of nobility it is even more visible. Even worse in cases you want the noble to do something for you - why would s/he agree if you offer him nothing for his/her time?

If I want a noble to do something for me, I'll bribe them. But what could a noble do for me, Amos Commoner? Now a templar can find out who broke into my apartment, look the other way when I commit crimes and provide me with a license (for merchanting, thieving or even killing).

[From a Noble Family]

I don't think that people should see templars in either city as more friendly or more approchable than the nobility.  Templars should be more feared than that.

[ale six]

Bribing a noble seems backwards to me. Especially if you're a commoner, most members of even the junior nobility already have more wealth than your character could realistically imagine.

Nobles have Money with a capital M. This should be plenty reason to interact with them no matter who you are. As Naiona said in a thread a while back, nobles aren't given four and five-digit stipends just so they can buy hats in fifteen different shades of chartreuse.

A somewhat amusing way to view a noble is as a venture capitalist. They have lots of money to throw around and are usually on the hunt for good things to invest in - templars, assassins, aides, bodyguards, hunters, spies, etc. Convincing a noble to lend you the force of their checkbook can be a HUGELY powerful thing. I had a burglar who was on the payroll of a noble house and oh man could she afford nice stuff. So rather than trying to bribe nobles for things, I'd be more focused on trying to get -them- to pay -you- for services. If you're going to bribe them, at the very least offer something other than sid.

As far as political power goes, at the PC levels, most nobility and templars are on fairly equal footing. Nobles have enough money to be bribing a templar or two consistently for favors, and will be doing so if they're smart. Templars are also more likely to listen to the noble dropping sid into their pocket than the whiny commoner wasting their time, which is an important fact to keep in mind.

I've seen and played with some very powerful and influential nobles, who got a lot of big things done even if they never got much exposure to the common PCs. IMO saying that nobles are introverts who want to do their own thing inside their House and be left alone is pretty far from the truth.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I hear a lot of talk about bribing nobles.  Be aware of how this must be done.  In Allanak, bribing a noble with coins is futile, because nobles already have a great deal of coins.  In fact, one of the most important things that a noble in Allanak can do for you (and a templar can't) is give you money.  Instead of bribing them with money, you should offer them useful services, information, and items in order to win their favor.

In Allanak at least, thinking that a templar is friendlier, cares more about you, or is more interested in your well-being than a noble is just WRONG.  In Allanak, dealing with a templar should be the last thing on anybodies mind, while dealing with a noble is a rather pleasant alternative.  Templars gain in prestige by building a reputation of being cruel and merciless, and immediately slaughtering anybody who disagrees with or annoys them.  A noble on the other hand, gains reputation by being relatively generous and benevolent.  Therefore, a noble has nothing to gain from killing you for no reason, while a templar very well may.

Of course, if Allanak is currently full of friendly templars and aloof nobles, then the point is moot.  But without a doubt, this is how Allanak should be.

[Hymwen]

Seems to me that:

In Allanak, nobles are less visible. Rarely seen, rarely going out in public and very "behind the scenes".

In Tuluk, nobles are visible, but are glued to the couch in the Sun King's Sanctuary (okay, a little exaggarated, but still) and basically ignoring everything that goes on around them.

There are exceptions to both, but that's generally how it appears to me.

[Larrath]

A point that most people seem to miss is that, as a rule (and many times in practice), templars don't really care about your character.  Templars are not your friends, templars are people full of mystical powers and forbidden knowledge, and they all have a very clear purpose: to keep the order in their city-state.
They simply don't see the world the way most other people see it, and their concerns are completely different.

The sheer distance between a templar and everyone else becomes more apparent the more powerful the templar is.  The fact is, and I'm sure everyone knows this, is that a black-robed templar is so mind-bogglingly powerful that one of them could most likely pop up out nowhere five hundred leagues away from Allanak, take on four reasonably powerful defilers at the same time, and still emerge victorious.
And yet these black-robes don't seem to prowl the streets hunting down sorcerers.

Templars aren't exactly people the same way a commoner, a noble or even an elementalist are people.  They care about the city-state and sometimes they also care about their personal standing.
That said, unless your character is an extremely prominent commoner, there's very little you could do to boost a templar's standing.

And that's what you need to remember.  Even if a templar is nice, polite and they listen to you, it doesn't mean they care.
Symapthy (and help, as long as the city-state itself isn't threatened) is much, much easier to get from a noble than it is from a templar, and this makes nobles more dependable.
Nobles are also easier to understand - they're rich, they're super-smart, but they're still ordinary people with generally nonmagickal problems.

All this said, bribing a noble is harder than bribing a templar.  I can't really see someone slipping a Borsail Noble a pouch with 100 'sids.  Of course, there are still other wares and goods that can be delivered...

[Gaare]

Nobles with  house merchants at least should be the people whom make the wheel turn. I believe a noble/templar/house merchant player must be ashamed if s/he finds himself sitting in a tavern without doing anything but glancing (Considering there are more then 10-15 players around).. Then.. people would really care and see nobles not only silk clad people whom must be showed some respect, but powerful figures. There are a lot of threads about playing some good leader in ARM.

PS.

      (i) For case of templars do not give more importance to nobles.. well.. I guess Noble House influence on templarates should be more visible/affective.
      (ii) A bit detrailment but.. I think (i) is true for Merchant Houses as well. I  hate to see a family merchant to be killed by a templar like a mere commoner.

[Delirium]

To note:  Bribing nobles with coin is useless.

Bribing them with things, services, or information is far better.

Just in case it hasn't already been said.

[A Different Noble]

I'd suggest nobles try inviting single commoners over to them and interrogate them on gossip and other trivial matters. Be condescending as you should be, and try to make them a little uncomfortable. Make it just seem like you're trying to entertain yourself by poking fun on some random dope from the crowd.

I've tried to do this. It's harder to do than it sounds. Yes, nobles in general should be more approachable and care more about the commoners than templars do, but that doesn't mean it makes any more sense for them to want to sit and listen to Minor Amos telling them how Crafter Malik is kanking Aide Jade.

As I said, giving yourself a reason to be picked out of the crowd (or approaching the noble yourself) will go a lot farther towards getting noticed and starting something than just looking like part of the nondescript unwashed masses. If you want to -avoid- notice, on the other hand, that's a good strategy.

In Allanak, nobles are less visible. Rarely seen, rarely going out in public and very "behind the scenes".

In Tuluk, nobles are visible, but are glued to the couch in the Sun King's Sanctuary (okay, a little exaggarated, but still) and basically ignoring everything that goes on around them.

Nobles tend to like upscale places, so you're more likely to find them in the Trader's or the Sanctuary than you are the Barrel or the Tembo's Tooth. In the case of them being "less visible" in Allanak I think that's because few people but nobility and templars actually hang out at the Trader's, which is why no one else ever sees them.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The problem, I guess, is the question of "what can this noble do for me?", coupled with "will I be useful to this noble?" unless the answers are "something" and "yes", respectively, then you will probably never have to deal with that noble (they're certainly easy enough to avoid... all you have to do is never step in the Trader's/Sanctuary).
These questions are more easily answered when the noble in question (and, by extension, the noble house in question) has a certain reputation. There is already a pretty brilliant IC example of this in Allanak, with the relationship between House Oash and gemmed magickers. You a magicker? You got a gem? You want work? Well, then go see an Oashi. It's pretty clear-cut.
I'd like to see more of this in general. I think will the re-opening of Fale, we'll soon see every PC southern bard vying for their patronage, which will be good. Maybe Tor is well-known for employing the T'zai Byn constantly? Maybe Borsail is constantly putting out contracts on escaped slaves, deserters, and general riff-raff, making Borsail very popular with local head-hunters and contract-killers? I think if each noble house had a more clearly-defined "niche", then we'd see a lot more commoner-noble interaction in general.

[Malken]

I haven't had the pleasure of playing in Allanak in over five years, at least.. So my points were mostly about Tuluk Nobles and Templars.  

[John]

I haven't had the pleasure of playing in Allanak in over five years, at least.. So my points were mostly about Tuluk Nobles and Templars.  

I hope that's just the one char for you (If so you're one lucky bastard).

[From a Noble Family]

Seems to me that:

In Allanak, nobles are less visible. Rarely seen, rarely going out in public and very "behind the scenes".

In Tuluk, nobles are visible, but are glued to the couch in the Sun King's Sanctuary (okay, a little exaggarated, but still) and basically ignoring everything that goes on around them.

There are exceptions to both, but that's generally how it appears to me.

Maybe those nobles go to those taverns in hopes of finding someone for something.  It's true that the nobles can reach out to the commoners, but they will reach out to the ones who draw their attention for whatever reason.  If you want the attention of a particular noble, do something to get it.  That noble might be ignoring you because you haven't given him reason to pay attention to you.

Communication and interaction is a two way street.