A reminder when it comes to writing PC descriptions

[Anon Kank]

Don't be subjective. It is much more interesting to read a detailed description of a beautiful face, than to read "this is a beautiful woman". Let the reader make the judgements -- write it in a way that makes people think "she must be beautiful" or "he must look like a mean bastard" rather than writing the subjective remark itself.

Do not describe how your character moves or speaks, since the viewer may be looking at them while they are asleep or knocked out, and wouldn't know how they customarily move or speak. Similarly, don't have your character performing actions in the description, such as nodding or whistling, unless it's an action they perform constantly, even when asleep. Don't force actions on the viewer as in 'You wonder what she is doing here' or 'You blink and look away, cowed by the intensity of his eyes.'

I have seen a disturbing rise in descriptions doing exactly the opposite of this.  Please, please keep this in mind when you are writing a character description.  It seems that some people are trying to get around it by using more obscure words when it comes to subjective adjectives as well.  Also, I was wondering if the staff is purposefully being more lenient by allowing these things.

[Xygax]

I definitely think to some degree we have been allowing a bit more range with regard to verbiage, both in main descs and in short descriptions, but overall I think the change has been for the better.  I'm a big fan of variety, and while I myself prefer a more "technical" description, such as what you quote from the character creation documents, a little more freedom in PC descriptions isn't necessarily a bad thing.

For example, suggesting in your main description that "she has alluring blue eyes" (I just made this up, I think, I don't know if anyone has actually done this), crosses this line of subjectivity, but I don't think I would necessarily reject or edit an application containing the line.  Often, for new players, it takes a little while to acclimate to the objective writing style we're aiming for, and they often improve simply by looking at other players and NPCs, and reading threads like this one.  Also, it is often possible to draw objectively valid conclusions about a subjective term like "alluring" (though this may be a bad example), and the freedom to use a term like that may yield greater freedom and better overall descriptions, especially from new players.

A little poetry in a description isn't necessarily a crime -- though, as I said before, my own preference is certainly for factual, objective descriptions.  Also, it is easy to cross the line from flowery prose to jarringly subjective verse, so the question is a bit more nuanced than just "do" or "don't" use subjective terms.

-- X

[amoeba]

I've seen it a bit in the south.  It does not appear to be from newbies, but rather at least in one glaring case of thesaurus overkill, someone trying to pick the more outragous sdesc possible.  The word is quite obscure and easily violates this line, once you look up what the damned thing means.  

I also agree with a little freedom and variety, but when something is way over the top, of the "omg, how did they let that get through" variety,  I think it is distracting.

[Xygax]

If someone seems to be way over the line, typo them.

-- X

[spawnloser]

Yeah, I gotta agree.  I recently saw an sdesc where someone brought out some five syllable word for the sdesc that basically meant "very attractive or sexually appealling."  In the mdesc, nothing specifically explained this word, which would require 99% of the playerbase to go look it up...100% of non-native English speakers.  I thought this was over the top.

Okay, I will admit there are certain principles of perception that provide some universal standards to beauty, but people's preferences do differ.  I am a whole-hearted supporter of the 'describe the feature not how to think about the feature' person.  Instead of attractive/gorgeous/handsome/pretty/sexy/etc describe HOW someone would come to that thought.  For example, parts that should be perky could be described as such and parts that should be firm can be described in that manner as well.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Man, I had to look it up. Me and the wife were chuckling about that word for a good ten minutes. I was like, "Come here, baby, come here. What the fuck does ... how the hell do you say this word?"

Still, that said, I know it's a weird word but it is a word that does exist. I really doubt it is going to hurt anyone to learn a new word. I wouldn't have done it, but let's not kill the player's joy for his/her strapping new, sexy-socks character.

[Xygax]

Just to expand on this, I have no problems at all with words that require the occasional dictionary reference.  I don't mind expanding my vocabulary.  The real issue here I hope is that the word(s) in question shouldn't force an interpretation of attractiveness, appeal, like, dislike, good or evil, or any sort of activity on the viewer.

-- X

[Morfeus]

English is not my first language. Often, I have to look some word up. I usually don't mind. Only thing which bothers me on "strange" words in sdesc is when I look in a dictionary, the word has five different meanings and mdesc of the said person does not give me a slightest clue which one it should be. That and sdesc like "the most beautiful woman".

[jcarter]

I've seen a number of descs that were written pretentiously. When you write, remember that you're writing to other players with average to above average reading and writing skills. In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

[Anonymous]

I've seen a number of descs that were written pretentiously. When you write, remember that you're writing to other players with average to above average reading and writing skills. In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

The word you are looking for is either "fustian" or, my personal favorite, sesquipedalian.

fustian

n 1: pompous or pretentious talk or writing [syn: bombast, rant, claptrap, blah] 2: a strong cotton and linen fabric with a slight nap


sesquipedalian

adj 1: given to the overuse of long words; "sesquipedalian orators"; "this sesquipedalian way of saying one has no money" 2: (of words) long and ponderous; having many syllables; "sesquipedalian technical terms" [syn: polysyllabic] n : a very long word (a foot and a half long) [syn: sesquipedalia]

[gfair]

Question Xygax - in the example of the PC with alluring eyes: does the PC have alluring eyes or not? Just because the PC says so, do we have to believe it?

I ask because when I'd see a desc like this, I'd reject all such subjective interpretations of a person's own character on the basis that it doesn't let me decide. Why should they be alluring to all people and races? That's my take on it.

[Maybe42or54]

I personally think they are fine. If they have alluring, and they make it alluring in the Desc (without using the word alluring in the desc). They just shortened it so they could fit more meaning into one word.

[Anarchy]

I'd view alluring as the most noticeable feature on a face, your drawn too it over all other facial features, you dont need to find it attractive.

[Kalden]

This reminds me of the book I'm reading right now, Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse. The main character is described as follows:

Code Select Expand

I did not get a good look at him until we were all three on our way up to the top floor. Though not very big, he had the bearing of a big man...Above all, his face pleased me from the first in spite of the foreign air it had. It was a rather original face nd perhaps a sad one, but alert, thoughtful, strongy marked and highly intellectual....He gave at the very first glance the impression of a significant, an uncommon, and unusually gifted man. His face was intellectual, and the abnormally delicate and mobile play of his features reflected a soul of extremely emotional and unusually delicate sensibility.

Herman Hesse won a Nobel Prize for Literature. Granted, I'm not saying this could work in Armageddon, but I'd be careful about saying detailed technical descriptions are always better, as Xygax was saying.

With that said, I do try to describe all the features of my characters as technically as possible.

Later...

[Jherlen]

The difference is that while you can write a story where you convey one character's perceptions of another character to the readers, you can't write a description that tells other characters how they perceive you. Let them be the judge of what they think.

[John]

I've seen a number of descs that were written pretentiously. When you write, remember that you're writing to other players with average to above average reading and writing skills. In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

Oh I agree. All of those flaxen-haired people are just so pompous.

[Maybe42or54]

I've never had problems with people using "handsome," "beautiful," or things like "ugly," in their desc. It has always conveyed more to me than just their looks.

If they tell me their Pc is a beautiful man, then that sends off signals that he is feminine, takes care of himself(as in shave fingernails, pluck eyebrows/nosehairs/etc), maybe smaller in stature, longer hair that is well taken care of.

Their ugly? Well then, they may have visible rashes, diseases, or visibly broken bones. Maybe they don't take care of themselves, sweat stains everywhere, holes in their clothing, something is wrong with their teeth, maybe they are week also.

If they use these words, but don't go into detail in their desc as to -why- then that is twinkish.

I wouldn't complain if I saw a handsome man without the word (or any like-meaning word) in the Main Description.

Using the word handsome is easier to tell people about than the blue eyed man that raided me.

[Anonymous]

There's a woman here, whose ass is the tastiest ass you've ever seen. She's got boobs you really want to fondle, and lips you really want to lick. Her eyes are the most beautiful eyes you've ever seen, and she's got long legs that remind you of the girl you liked when you were a kid. Her hair is long and shiny and it reminds you of obsidian coins.

Do you see why this sucks?

Really?

[Maybe42or54]

That isn't an sdesc backed up with a Main Description telling me why that is so, it is rather extreme, it wouldn't be accepted, I don't deal in extremes of this nature. Sorry.

[jcarter]

I've seen a number of descs that were written pretentiously. When you write, remember that you're writing to other players with average to above average reading and writing skills. In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

Oh I agree. All of those flaxen-haired people are just so pompous.

In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

In general, if I have to look a word up

In general

In general

In general

In general

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general

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Anything else you would like to contribute to the thread, John?

[Xygax]

Question Xygax - in the example of the PC with alluring eyes: does the PC have alluring eyes or not? Just because the PC says so, do we have to believe it?

No, you don't.

-- X

[John]

I've seen a number of descs that were written pretentiously. When you write, remember that you're writing to other players with average to above average reading and writing skills. In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

Oh I agree. All of those flaxen-haired people are just so pompous.

In general, if I have to look a word up, I'm going to assume you're using it for the sake of being pompous.

In general, if I have to look a word up

In general

In general

In general

In general

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general

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Anything else you would like to contribute to the thread, John?

:lol: Sorry. "In general all those flaxen haired people are so pompous."

Oh, and I forgot about all them tawny people being, "in general", pompous as well.

[Kalden]

Those words are only pompous and incomprehensible to those have a vocabularly incommensurate with the requirements of the game they are playing, John.

[Delirium]

Call me crazy, but I think John was, y'know... joking.

As to the original post in this thread - agreed.  I like simple descriptions that paint a clear picture without being subjective.  Anything over 10 lines gets really hard to read all the way through.  Avoid 'appears to be' or 'seems like' and just tell it like it is.  Poetic writing is fine, you can do that while remaining non-subjective, though too much fluff starts to obfuscate things.

couldn't resist

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I don't like long, over complex words in descs. I feel I have a pretty decent vocabulary, and I don't mind looking things up... It's just bad writing. It's a pretty standard rule of writing to simplify. Don't use 10 words when 3 will say the same thing. The same goes for syllables. Of course, people are free to do what they will, but I find it a bit silly and inconsiderate. But, hey, to each their own.

[John]

Call me crazy, but I think John was, y'know... joking.

Mostly My point is that what someone considers a perfectly acceptable word to use, somone else has to go look it up in the dictionary. I use to think I had a pretty good vocabulary until I came to play at Arm. Now I realize it wasn't the greatest. So don't make the default assumption be ""in general" the person's being pompous." Perhaps they're vocabulary is just naturally larger then most Arm player's. Perhaps you're vocabulary is slightly lower then most Armers.

I like simple descriptions that paint a clear picture without being subjective.  Anything over 10 lines gets really hard to read all the way through.

I use to struggle with 4-5 lines. Now I struggly to keep it below 10 lines. And I'm not really describing anything but the basic appearance of the person. I don't know why, but for some reason my descs have gotten larger.

[Hymwen]

I don't mind fancy words if it's kept at a reasonable level. I've learned a lot of new words that way, and as long as it's not 3-4 obscure archaeic words per sentence, I don't have a problem. One trend that I've heard of (and I'm a bit guilty of it too) is to made an sdesc with the more simplified version of a word, and then using different words to describe it in the mdesc, careful to avoid using the word from the sdesc in the mdesc as well. I like this as long as it's not taken to extremes, and as long as people don't pick ridiculously rare words with the intention of confusing the reader, an interesting substitute can be both impressive and educational.

And from personal experience, your sdesc can have a big factor in people's initial reaction, whether that's a good or bad thing. I just know that my attention is easier to catch if you're "the stalwart, willowy man" than if you're "the strong, tall man" (I just made these up, apologies if I accidentally outed your sdesc).

[Kalden]

Thinking about it, I actually like learning new words...even if they are just showing off sometimes. The most annoying ones are clearly synonyms, especially for colors.

[Anonymous]

Considering that your sdesc is, in many ways, the 'face' of your character that will be recognized or not when walking into a room I feel that using obscure words in the sdesc is completely fine.  It helps me distinguish amongst all the many 'smelly' PCs when I see one that is 'malodorous'.

I think a lot of the times the pretension is inferred by others unnecessarily.

[John]

The most annoying ones are clearly synonyms, especially for colors.

I actually like synonyms for colors in sdescs (with the most basic word for the color in the main desc). That way instead of having everyone be "the brown, medium-sized man" we have "the chestnut-skinned, medium-sized man" and "the coffee-skinned, medium-sized man" and "the medium-sized umber man"

[Nao]

If you don't recognize a word yourself, don't use it in your description. Don't use a thesuarus when writing it up unless you're looking for something that would be very difficult to describe otherwise.
A new word every now and then is fine, but the purpose of a description is not to learn new words but to paint some picture of your character.

I'm not a native speaker but I know my vocabulary is alright - I've been to school in the US too and saw what's average in the english classes there

I remember that one character who seemed to have tried to substitute every word in their description with a more obscure one using a thesaurus - it was ridiculous, there were more words in there that your average smaller dictionary doesn't have listed than 'normal' ones.
A ten line description and I had almost no idea at all what the guy looked like - that is more than just a little annoying.

And please, don't tell me that most people using 'atramentous' or whatever just got a huge vocabulary - the only place where some of those words seem to show up is a large dictionary.
(I don't think the armageddon description page helps a lot here since tons of the stuff on there is pretty obscure - but that's another thing)

You google a word and one of the first results is some online dictionary that should tell you soemthing, too.

Subjective descriptions don't bother me all that much - they still give me a picture of the character, whether my own character thinks of them as sexy and beatiful is a completely different thing. I see a pretty woman with black hair - gotcha. some obscure short description? Gimme five minutes....

[James de Monet]

I don't mind looking things up... It's just bad writing. It's a pretty standard rule of writing to simplify.

I'm not sure I could disagree more.  It's a standard rule of writing to communicate to your audience.  If you're communicating a complex notion or nuanced description with words from a third grade reading level, though...something is bound to get lost in translation.

I like good words.  Words that mean very specific things.  You can write a description using all one syllable words just like you can paint a picture using only red green and blue.  It will never be as rich as if you had diversified.  Also, do you realize that humans need complex words to think complex thoughts?  Logic is predicated upon language.  That's why Orwell wrote about the government decreasing people's vocabularies in 1984.  Because without the ability to elucidate complex ideas of wrongs and injustice, people are simply left saying things like, "That ain't right."  Which proves nothing and will not get one far in court.

I suppose that's my two 'sid.

P.S.  I will now leave you all with a very fun good word.  Aprosexia, which means the inability to concentrate.  I'm sure you miscreants can find some clever, (I was about to say "aberrant" but for the sake of this thread I will substitute "deviant."  There, are you happy?   ) deviant use for it.  Go buck wild.

[Cale_Knight]

Personally, I don't like long, over complex words in descs. I feel I have a pretty decent vocabulary, and I don't mind looking things up... It's just bad writing. It's a pretty standard rule of writing to simplify. Don't use 10 words when 3 will say the same thing. The same goes for syllables. Of course, people are free to do what they will, but I find it a bit silly and inconsiderate. But, hey, to each their own.

I suppose it's pretty obvious I agree with this sentiment.

There's a vast, vast difference between rich communication and pretentious overcomplexity. 99 times in 100, amateur writers (which we all are) fall into the second category when they try too hard at attempting the first.

edit: And you can feel free to disagree with my boys Strunk and White, but the fact is that they literally wrote the book on modern usage and style.

[Kiri]

It's a standard rule of writing to communicate to your audience.  If you're communicating a complex notion or nuanced description with words from a third grade reading level, though...something is bound to get lost in translation.

Mark Twain said, the difference between a good word and the perfect word was the difference between lightning and lightning bug.

I'm a firm believer in using the perfect word/phrase to convey the impression you want your character to make.  Your sdesc is like the headline on an ad.... meant to be an attention-getter, an immediate conveyer of what that person wants your first impression of them to be.  Maybe the character has a penchant for romantic verse that he'd like you to find out about when you know him better... but the FIRST thing he wants you to notice about him is that he's a HULKING GREEN SKINNED FELLOW. Or kalan skinned, if you prefer. It's all about what you want the first thing someone thinks about your character to see, whether that's OMFG HE'S HUGE or  HOLY COW HIS EYES DONT MATCH, HOW FREAKY!

As for the rest of the desc... While I agree that one should refrain from too much subjectiveness, I think a lot of it comes to personal preference.  You can be suggestive of attitude or appearance without going into minute detail. Not everyone is going to like your style, but as long as you're within the guidelines, their dislike becomes their problem.  I know that I personally groan every time I see a desc with "arms sprouting from their shoulders" because it makes me think of Sleestak... but that's just me.

[amoeba]

If you're communicating a complex notion or nuanced description with words from a third grade reading level, though...something is bound to get lost in translation.

Not if you are good enough at writing.  Simply throwing obsure words in there just to prove how complexed and nuanced you can be defeats the purpose.  For most every obsure word there is a third grade equivilent phrasing that can be used to convey the same message. Obsure words simply serve to compact the statement.  If anything is going to get "lost in translation" it is in using words that the author has no clear understanding of, but simply looked up and strung together in an "attempt" to look complex and nuanced.

[Maybe42or54]

The Sdesc should be as much as your Main Description as possible without pinpointing something.

Like when I see a chestnut skinned man, I have a few questions running through my head.

Do they have the glossy brown skin, or be as thick, of the actual nut?
Do they have the reddish-brown of the horse?
Is it really brown and red like the dictionary says it is?

The same with Flaxen, do they mean they have blonde and grey hair?
Or do they just have blonde hair?

If I read your description and I'm still unsure, then it isn't very well written, IMHO.

If you list skin color in the sdesc first, you should list skin color in your MDesc first.

[Lizzie]

This game is pretty fast paced, it isn't turn-based like a MUSH. So those descriptions need to be pretty clear to the reader, so the reader knows very quickly how their character should/shouldn't react to seeing the other character. I like what someone said (was it Nao?) that you should try using words that are in your own vocabulary, unless you're looking for a word that fits the sentence better than anything you can come up with on your own. Like ebon, that's a bad example but it came up in my head. Ebon means black. If you've never heard the word ebon before, and you know the word black, then just use black. Or jet, or "the color of a hawk's wing at dusk" or some other descriptive besides ebon. If ebon was an obscure word (I know it isn't) then there's no reason to use it, if there are dozens and dozens of alternatives that most people will understand.

That's what I think.

L. Stanson

[Cale_Knight]

If you list skin color in the sdesc first, you should list skin color in your MDesc first.

You know, I never once thought along those lines, but I absolutely agree.

[Hymwen]

I personally like this setup, in order:

1) major distinguishable features, especially things that would be seen from a distance: height, frame, skin tone and hair color

2) hairstyle and facial features

3) smaller details (scars, missing fingers, strange quirks etc.)

4) anything that didn't fit in the above, preferably with a neat finish to the desc

[flurry]

As far as obscure words go, I don't mind if I have to look up a word or two.  After all, if I'm reading a good book, I have to look words up occasionally.  Sometimes to say just the right thing, you need a particular word.  (For instance, I heard someone on the radio use 'avuncular' today.   If someone used that in a description in-game, some people might have to look it up and some people might not, but it's a word that might better capture a certain person's appearance better than some more familiar words could.)

If an mdesc is littered with obscure words, though, I think it really gets in the way.

As for subjective terms, I personally try to avoid them.  I guess if someone used a word like "beautiful" in their sdesc (assuming it got approved), I would assume it meant beautiful in some kind of classic or popular sense.  That doesn't mean I have to find the person beautiful, but many would.  (For instance, is it really that subjective to refer to Angelina Jolie as beautiful?  Not everyone will find her to be that, but she does fit into a common standard of what people consider beautiful.)   All of that said, I would hope the person would back that up in the mdesc by showing me why this person is described as beautiful.

One last remark: if you do run into one of these walking thesauruses, and find it annoying, please try to keep your OOC reaction from spilling out into IC actions.  Your character sees other characters, but not the particular words the player used to describe them.   Sdescs can be jarring, but not as jarring as IC comments about someone's sdesc.

[Kiri]

As for subjective terms, I personally try to avoid them.  I guess if someone used a word like "beautiful" in their sdesc (assuming it got approved), I would assume it meant beautiful in some kind of classic or popular sense. .

I think we need to stop assuming that all subjective terms refer only to attractiveness.

"Imposing" is a subjective term, and my character might not necessarily be intimidated by a character whose desc included it, but he/she could CERTAINLY tell if said character were imposing to others. IE being tall, stern-looking, having a tendency to loom, etc. Do you see my point? These are impressions a character might be trying to make, and I don't have a problem with it, really.

But that's just me.