Watch and Combat

[Cale_Knight]

If you're watching someone, and then you attack them or they attack you, you stop watching them.

I'd like to see skilled combatants have the ability to maintan the watch, which would then give them attack and defense bonuses.

Specifically watching a single opponent, though, would give penalties against any secondary (or tertiary, etc) folks the character might be fighting at the same time.

[Anonymous]

If you're watching someone, and then you attack them or they attack you, you stop watching them.

I'd like to see skilled combatants have the ability to maintan the watch, which would then give them attack and defense bonuses.

Specifically watching a single opponent, though, would give penalties against any secondary (or tertiary, etc) folks the character might be fighting at the same time.

Isn't it pretty much to be assumed that if you are in one on one combat with someone that all of your attention is focused on them?  I think adding bonuses for employing watch would just mean that new players who weren't aware of this would be at a disadvantage.

As far as being at a disadvantage when fighting multiple opponents I've always thought the code takes that into account already.

[jmordetsky]

IT sounds to me like the issue is act of combat breaking the watch. For example, I watch sneaky A, I see him come into the room, I attack.

My watch is now broken and sneaky A flees into the next room, returns and backstabs me because I wasn't fast enough to type watch again.

Is that the case?

[Maybe42or54]

From experience, yea.

[jmordetsky]

Yea, don't like.

[Cyrian20]

Then there is the race to quickly watch who you fight.

If I am in the middle of typing out an emote and someone attacks me I have to delete it and quickly turn watch to them. Don't like it.

Plus that means if everyone in a group is watching you they get a bonus, which sucks because they already do. And this would cause endless little
bugs and problems with npc's I am sure.

That's my quick opinion, I am sure someone will post something that makes me
rethink, until then I can only say nay.

Cyrian, poet of the Equestrian circle.
:twisted:

[Cale_Knight]

Well, regardless of combat advantages (which I really just thought of as I was writing the post), I still think combat should not break watch.

Hell - if anything, it should force watch.

[Cenghiz]

Yes.. I'd rather see combat code forcing you to watch your foe and making it unable to watch anything else.

[John]

I'd like to see skilled combatants have the ability to maintan the watch, which would then give them attack and defense bonuses.

Specifically watching a single opponent, though, would give penalties against any secondary (or tertiary, etc) folks the character might be fighting at the same time.

I'd like to see watch maintained for all combatants. But skilled combatants get either a defensive or offensive (or both) bonuses.

[Cenghiz]

Having 'watch' maintained would be.. weird. You cannot fight someone swinging two swords at you and also check if the elf is hiding or not. You're supposed to keep your concentration on your foe while fighting.

Master warriors should maintain 'watch'? Why? They either finish off the foe in moments, or the opponent is also skilled and they need all their attention not the have their heads chopped off.

I insist, fighting should force 'watch' on your opponent.

Edited to add: Forgot to mention.. Combat bonuses? Why? No.. you watch him closely or you die.

[Larrath]

I don't see why Watch should provide any combat bonuses.

Suggesting that it's possible to engage in serious deadly combat without paying attention to the opponent is just ridiculous to me - if you're not paying attention, you'll get stabbed in the heart and you will die.
Zalanthans, though much tougher than us regular humans, are still frail and are prone to die if they engage half-heartedly in mortal combat.

People fleeing and returning with a backstab are a problem, but I don't think Watch should fix it.  Fleeing and coming back immediately to backstab ad Mantisum is simply code abuse and it needs a code fix.  I think that Watching someone not involved in the fight should give penalties to Offense and Defense due to inattention, and that combat initiation would be able to terminate Watch.
I really don't see why we need a coded bonus for Watch - isn't this pretty much just asking to make PCs a little stronger across the board against NPCs?

[Cenghiz]

People fleeing and returning with a backstab are a problem, but I don't think Watch should fix it. Fleeing and coming back immediately to backstab ad Mantisum is simply code abuse and it needs a code fix.

I wholeheartedly agree.. That's why 'watch' should let you to watch your opponent. So if he flees, you'll see him. He will have the coded penalties of being watched if he tries to come back and backstab you.

[jmordetsky]

Having 'watch' maintained would be.. weird. You cannot fight someone swinging two swords at you and also check if the elf is hiding or not. You're supposed to keep your concentration on your foe while fighting.

Master warriors should maintain 'watch'? Why? They either finish off the foe in moments, or the opponent is also skilled and they need all their attention not the have their heads chopped off.

I insist, fighting should force 'watch' on your opponent.

Edited to add: Forgot to mention.. Combat bonuses? Why? No.. you watch him closely or you die.

Seconded.

[jhunter]

No combat bonuses. Forced watch on the opponent.

[Maybe42or54]

Fighting should force wacth, not get rid of it.

On the other hand, if you still decide to "watch" someone else instead of the people fighting you, then you should suffer some penalties.

[jhunter]

Fighting should force wacth, not get rid of it.

On the other hand, if you still decide to "watch" someone else instead of the people fighting you, then you should suffer some penalties.

You should either not be able to watch someone other than who you're fighting or if you are in combat and watching someone else, the penalties should be so severe you would only ever do it -once-.

[Synthesis]

I think some people are getting confused about what the issue is, so I'll attempt to clarify it, as I understand it.

1. Currently, if you attack someone, your watch status is broken.
2. This results in some bad things:
    a) The person you attacked can flee and re-enter.  If you were previously watching this person, he is now no longer being watched, and can use "stealthy" attacks on you without the watch penalty.
    b) There are 2 people cornering you, Joe Warrior and Amos Assassin.  You are watching Amos Assassin, because you know he's a sneaky sumbitch.  However, Joe Warrior attacks you, breaking your watch status.  Now Amos Assassin is free to backstab you (repeatedly, by disengaging) without suffering the watch penalty, even though you know he's there and you know to look out for the attack.

I don't have any opinion one way or the other, but I hope that's enough of an explanation to get everyone on the same page.

[jhunter]

b) There are 2 people cornering you, Joe Warrior and Amos Assassin. You are watching Amos Assassin, because you know he's a sneaky sumbitch. However, Joe Warrior attacks you, breaking your watch status. Now Amos Assassin is free to backstab you (repeatedly, by disengaging) without suffering the watch penalty, even though you know he's there and you know to look out for the attack.

And if you turn your attention to watch Amos Assassin, Joe Warrior should kill you just as easily. It's really fine like it is the more I think about it.

[Synthesis]

I think the argument some people are going to make is that you're fighting both of them, so you should be watching both of them.

The code doesn't offer any penalties or bonuses for watching a normal combatant, but it does allow a bonus against backstab and sap.

Furthermore, the code doesn't allow you to watch more than one person, even if they are both in your immediate vicinity and actively engaged in attempted murder on your person.

Backstabbing/sapping someone who is currently engaged in combat is already difficult, when the individual isn't specifically watching out for you.  I'm inclined to believe that it should be even more difficult if your target knows you're there and is watching out for it.  Changing the code to allow watching Amos Assassin would reflect this opinion.

On the other hand, you tend to start not noticing things when a burly fellow is after you with a pair of axes.  Even if you knew Amos was after you also, you might not be watching for that sneak attack.

I don't think there's an argument that seals either position, though.  There are too many variables in the "realistic" situation to account for.  Your extra attention resources still available while fighting is dependent on your skill vs. your opponent's skill combined with your reflexes and overall attention span, all of which would vary in every scenario.  I suppose you could use "wisdom" as a substitute for "attention span" and "agility" as a substitute for "reflexes", then use off/def comparisons and come up with an equation to determine whether in any particular instance a person is able to attend to something else (watching Amos) while fighting Joe.  In this case, if Joe was too skilled, or you are too slow or suffer from ADD, you simply wouldn't be able to watch.  It would look something like "You're too busy fighting for your life!"  But if Joe was a 2-hr pickpocket and you're a 30-day warrior, you'd basically be able to shuffle cards in one hand while dismembering him with a skinning knife with the other, and you'd get the normal watch success message, "You begin watching Amos."  Here, your watch skill would be a final factor in determining how much of a disadvantage Amos is at should he attempt to backstab you.

I don't know if Arm's code could even handle all this, though.  And balancing it out to make the equation work in an effectively realistic manner would take a -lot- of work.  That's what...5 or 6 variables to take into account, at least, and some of them have significant interaction effects.

Short of doing the above, I think the status quo argument is the strongest, given that there are no compelling arguments in favor of changing the code.

[Agent_137]

esp. considering before the implementation of watch you were even more screwed all the time than you are in a worst case scenario now.

[Hot_Dancer]

I like the idea of combat forcing you to watch your opponent. (Who you are currently attacking)

In the example of battling Amos the Warrior and Malik the assassin single handedly, no matter what your skill level your character has manuevered himself into one of the less admirable positions known to Zalanthas and should be properly penalized.

To turn your watch onto the backstabbing assassin, use:

change opponent Malik (while they chew on their considerable backstab lag)

I don't approve of 'Watch' giving any other benefits to combat as these are already taken care of by the code.

If you got yourself double-teamed by a warrior and an assassin and don't have an ace up your sleeve: You probably deserve to be killed. As far as I know, it's the oldest combo in the book: The Warrior drawing the meat of the attention while the assassin flanks.

Hot Dancer

[Cenghiz]

I reject being able to watch anyone but you're fighting. Period. It is a 'battle' with sharp stones swinging. You're way too better than the current foe? Great. Finish him quickly first, then the assassin will be handled. The assassin backstabs you while you fight? Good for him. "change opponent <assassin>" and start watching out for him and kick his ass as much as you can. He ran away, while his warrior bud is still swinging at you? It's your choice. You know the assassin will try getting at you again and you will be distracted to avoid. Either get out of there, you needn't die to such a well-organized group or finish the warrior quickly if you want to stay and stay alive.

I want the code to force me to watch the primary opponent I'm fighting against and only that one.

[Kalden]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but watching someone who's already fled is not gonna give you much of a bonus against an assassin. The assassin will hide in the other room, sneak in, and backstab you again. Watch, as far as I know, doesn't give many bonuses when you're watching person a room away...then again, maybe I'm wrong and it does, but that seems like a stretch. At the most it should be a reduced bonus.

Watching your opponent seems like it would be ok, but I don't see much of a benefit. I suppose it would be nice tho.

[slipshod]

I really don't think combat should force someone to watch their opponent.

There are many reasons why I don't think a fighter should be forced to watch someone, but instead of listing them, I'll just be the nay-sayer and say nay.

[Irulan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but watching someone who's already fled is not gonna give you much of a bonus against an assassin. The assassin will hide in the other room, sneak in, and backstab you again. Watch, as far as I know, doesn't give many bonuses when you're watching person a room away...then again, maybe I'm wrong and it does, but that seems like a stretch. At the most it should be a reduced bonus.

Watching your opponent seems like it would be ok, but I don't see much of a benefit. I suppose it would be nice tho.

Actually, Morgenes says:

Watch <person> works much like watch <direction> if the person is in another room, but it will only show the one person's actions who you are watching.

Example wrote:
> watch angular
You start watching the angular, silver-eyed man.

>
The angular, silver-eyed man walks north.
To the north: the angular, silver-eyed man has arrived from the south.

>
To the north: the angular, silver-eyed man walks east.

So, I take that to mean that if they go into a different room, then try to hide, you will still have a chance of seeing them based on your watch. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

-Irulan

[mansa]

So, I take that to mean that if they go into a different room, then try to hide, you will still have a chance of seeing them based on your watch. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

I highly doubt that this information will be made public.  However, I want to bring up one example, without using assassins and warriors.


TWO RANGERS are fighting in the desert.  Right Now, if you enter a fight, you stop "watching", automatically.  If Ranger A runs away from Ranger B, I think that Ranger B would want to watch where Ranger A went to, via the WATCH command, in order to chase down and find them.  I think it would be an excellent addition if you are forced to watch someone when you fight them.  I think it would be excellent if you are the one who is FLEE'ing, to lose your WATCH status.

[Irulan]

I highly doubt that this information will be made public.  However, I want to bring up one example, without using assassins and warriors.

Yah, I was just guessing, based on Morgenes' statement. It sounds like if you are watching someone when they move into another room, you still have a chance at seeing them do something shady. I have no idea what the logistics behind it is, of it if is still as good as if they are in the same room. I would presume not...but that is just me making guesses.

-Irulan

[Agent_137]

mansa's suggestion is simple and effective, that of forcing watch on your combat opponent, and breaking it on flee.

[Anonymous]

mansa's suggestion is simple and effective, that of forcing watch on your combat opponent, and breaking it on flee.

Or have watch give no bonus and bam doesn't matter.

[Sir Diealot]

Yamako.  Read the thread.

It does matter, because of assassins and rangers.  The watch auto-tracks them, if they try to reenter the room because they only left the coded room.  ICly, the other combatant is, most likely, still trying to keep a bead on the guy who just tried to kill him.

[Seeker]

Mansa has it right.

[Morgenes]

So, I take that to mean that if they go into a different room, then try to hide, you will still have a chance of seeing them based on your watch. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

-Irulan

You are wrong, currently if they are not in the same room there is no chance of maintaining watching them if they hide.

[Irulan]

I stand corrected.  :oops:

-Irulan