Book costs?

[Jakahri]

The book will include a section of website stuff, a sampling of player histories from the staff wiki, and several logs. Any profits from its publication will be used first to reimburse project costs and then for advertising the game.

This is legal, I take it? I just skimmed over this and I assume you have to have the Dark Sun label's permission to profit from their copyright. I wasn't even sure that was allowed, seeing as how they own the rights and wouldn't allow profits from any other organization.

You don't seem to be using the label itself, though alot of the characters and races found in Dark Sun are also within Arm. I'm sure you guys have already thought this much through, but I was just wondering.

[Cenghiz]

Dark Sun's copyright? Why? We're not DarkSun at all. The cultures, creatures and stories have differentiated so much that sometimes we're more 'Dune'...

[LoD]

Dark Sun's copyright? Why? We're not DarkSun at all. The cultures, creatures and stories have differentiated so much that sometimes we're more 'Dune'...

Really? The cultures, creatures and stories have differentiated so much?  So much so that everything listed below as Dark Sun documentation would almost appear foreign to we that play the game today?  Let's check.

Taken from exerpts of the Dark Sun World Wikepedia, and Dark Sun: The Rebirth of Athas.

City States

The rulers of the isolated city-states are called Sorcerer-Kings and, in most cases, are secretly the Dark Sun equivalent of dragons. Templars can serve and worship these Sorcerer-Kings as a source for their spells (which are actually granted by something known as living vortex), while Clerics worship Elemental forces (Air, Fire, Water and Earth).

Official Races

> Dwarf
> Elf
> Half-Elf
> Half-Giant - More intelligent than their counterparts in other worlds, but with a tendency to change personalities over time
> Halfling
> Human
> Mul - A dwarven-human half-breed

Sea of Silt

Water has long since ceased to flow on the surface and can only be found in the last sea, some oases, tiny lakes and streams, as well as west of the Ringing Mountains in the Forest Ridge. Not only are the mountains nearly impassable (the name Ringing Mountains refers to the lightheaded feeling one feels from lack of oxygen when traversing them) but the Forest Ridge is the home of halflings, which in the Dark Sun world are small creatures that live in tribes in the forest and do not hesitate to capture and eat intruders to their realm. This makes the prospect of going west across the mountains a near impossibility.

In the place of an ocean, the world of Athas, due to defiling magic, has a sea composed entirely of silt. The silt is incredibly dangerous as it is not capable of supporting the weight of humanoid creatures, and the particles themselves are extremely fine and get into the lungs quite easily. A strong wind from the Silt Sea can cause people from nearby villages to have to remain indoors all day, though with a certain amount of water some people often make use of a mask-like object called a silter which is placed over the mouth and nose and kept wet in order to help the user breathe.

The silt actually becomes packed a few metres below the surface, but this is of no help to a human as the level within the first two metres is extremely finely packed. However, giants often make use of the packed silt roads further below and can be seen wading chest-deep through the silt. Humans have sometimes built crafts that can navigate these silt roads much like giants do, though the going is much slower and both humans and giants still have to deal with the creatures that live in the sea.

Psionic Classes

Schools of the minds exist, mostly maintained by and serving the Sorcerer-Kings.

Creatures

An Athas "Gith"

Climate/Terrain: Arid tablelands and mountains

The gith are a race of grotesque humanoids that appear to be a mix between elf and reptile. They are extremely gaunt and lanky, with long gangly arms and spindly legs. Their hands have 3 fingers with no opposable thumbs, yet they are able to use tools and weapons. Their fingers and toes end in sharp claws. If one could get a gith to stand upright, he would measure close to 7 feet tall. However, most gith appear to be no more than 5 feet tall, for they always stand hunched over in a permanent slouch.

An Athas "Mekillot"

Climate/Terrain: Stony Barrens, Scrub Plains

Mekillots have savage dispositions, but their massive size and strength makes them excellent caravan beasts. A hitched pair of mekillots can pull an argosy, the massive wheeled fortresses of the merchant houses, many of which weigh up to 20 tons. Caravan leaders must be prepared for their unpredictable natures, however. As they can never be truly tamed, the stubborn creatures have been known to turn off the road and go wandering for no apparent reason- still drawing their loaded wagons. Mekillots are also noted for eating their handlers and other members of the caravan teams, snatching anyone who draws to close with their bizarrely dexterous tongue and drawing them into their gaping maws. Psionic handlers are the best equipped to deal with these difficult creatures.

An Athas "Kank"

Climate/Terrain: Stony Barrens, Rocky Badlands, Scrub Plains, Sandy Wastes

Kanks are large, docile insects that the people of the Tablelands often use as mounts. A black exoskeleton of chitin covers their segmented bodies. The three body sections are the head, thorax and abdomen. They weigh as much as 400 pounds, grow to a height of 4 feet at the back and as long as 8 feet from head to abdomen. A pair of antennae sprout from the kank's head and kanks are controlled by riders by tapping their sensitive antennae with a rod of some sort. Soldiers are as large as workers, but usually a little heavier. Queens are much larger than workers and soldiers. Around their mouths they have multi-jointed pincers that they use to carry objects, feed themselves and fights. Six lanky legs descend from their thoraxes. Each ends in a single flexible claw that allows them to grip the surfaces they walk on.

Athas Elemental Magic

Athas is a world without true gods. Powerful Sorcerer-Kings often masquerade as gods and demigods but, although their powers are great and their worshippers many, they are not true gods. Outside the city-states, away from the bureaucracy of the Sorcerer-Kings and their corrupt templars, the common man worships things more real. Thing he can see, hear, taste, touch and smell. He worships the elements. From the immovable strength of Earth, to the foreseeing freedom of Air; from the cleaning flames of Fire to the great healer and bringer of life Water, the elements play a large role in the typical Athasian's life. There are even agents of the elemental planes, clerics who act as healers, saviors, teachers, warriors and guides. They are the true heroes of the wastes and virtually village or outpost has at least one to act as an advisor, if not an all out leader.

Conclusion

Yes, the names of the cities have been changed.  The names of the Noble Houses, Merchant Houses, Sorcerer-Kings and such have been changed.  The concept of the world, its cities, its magick, its psionics, its creatures, its races, is heavily influenced by Dark Sun, if not exact replicas within the game.

Just look at some of the climate names for the creatures: Stony Barrens, Rocky Badlands, Scrub Plains, Sandy Wastes, Tablelands.  Do these look familiar to anyone playing our "unique" and "completely different" game?

They don't look different to me.

-LoD

[Sanvean]

I am aware of the overlap.  What I have tried to do in the book is present the content that is unique to the game, most of it written by players.

Note that some of the concepts you are mentioning are standard fantasy trophes: city-states, psionics, dwarves, elves, etc.  Humans, even.

This book is not intended to make money for anyone.  I'll be surprised, frankly, if it generates more than enough to pay for a couple of advertisements.  It's intended as a way to showcase some of the unique work attached to the game and perhaps attract some new players.

[Aldiel]

A game that uses orcs, humans, dwarfs, and elves doesn't have to go through D&D to get published.

Edit: After reading LoD's post, maybe I take this back.

[LoD]

I am aware of the overlap.  What I have tried to do in the book is present the content that is unique to the game, most of it written by players.

Note that some of the concepts you are mentioning are standard fantasy trophes: city-states, psionics, dwarves, elves, etc.  Humans, even.

This book is not intended to make money for anyone.  I'll be surprised, frankly, if it generates more than enough to pay for a couple of advertisements.  It's intended as a way to showcase some of the unique work attached to the game and perhaps attract some new players.

My post is in no way opposing or damning the writing of such a book.  I've contemplated doing the exact same thing and think it's awesome.  I was mostly responding to people who claim there is "no relationship" or continue to spout that "Aramgeddon is not Dark Sun."

While dwarves, elves, psionics and city-states are common to several fantasy settings, elemental magic as it is defined in Athas, defiler magic, templars, sorcerer-kings, specific names and concepts, halfling culture, unique creature descriptions are pretty specific to the gameworld.  I don't think anything will come of it, but it's not something people should brush off or trivialize.

I fully intend to buy one of the books myself.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

Psionic Classes

Schools of the minds exist, mostly maintained by and serving the Sorcerer-Kings.

Weird...this is incorrect.  Certain schools of the mind are owned by the sorceror-kings,
but only Hamanu and Lalali-Puy have ever been public enough to actually maintain
any type of establishment such as this.  Psionics is quite legal on Athas, and usually
an aging master of incredible power settles down and either sets up a school or
inherits the running of one from retiring master.  Besides, there are multiple schools
in a given city--psionicists are the movers and shakers of the world and generally can
acquire all types of cushy jobs if they're competent enough.  There are, by contrast, a
lot of them too.

Also, in regards to Lalali-Puy and Hamanu, while they do take an active interest in
their city-states, they tend to focus on things other than psionics.

Hamanu, for example, personally trains with his own soldiers.  He also runs the sole
provisionary merchant house for his city-state (Urik) and makes frequent appearances
among the populace.  Yes, I know--he kicks ass.

Lalali-Puy may not be doing this since the Prism Pentad series and her next step step
in dragonhood, but she used to address each governmental issue personally,
granting audiences to anyone with the nerve to meet her--and yes, it is dangerous to
do so.

One less public sorceror king who probably bears some mentioning is Nibenay.  He is
very unlikely to be running a psionics school either because his wives keep him busy.
His entire templarate is female, with those in higher status wearing less clothing (no,
I did not make this up, it's true).  When I say that the templarate are all his wives, I
mean that he either did or still does consummate the marriage with each one and has
been known to call on each for nocturnal activities.

Lastly, one thing all semi-dragons have in common is that they usually hire and
teach directly a cadre of defilers who apply magic in the city at their sorceror-kings'
requests--usually maintenance or assistance to the templarate.  They are as feared and
hated as a templar, but respected nearly as much too--the majority of these defilers
were personally trained by their ruler.

In short, I'm 99.9999% sure the Wiki is wrong.  Of all the activities that the sorceror-kings
dip their hands into, running and maintaining a school of the mind has never been
something they've ever seemed to show interest in.

[mansa]

I'm buying two.

[Maybe42or54]

When are they coming out? I want one. I think I'll pass them off to others.

[RunningMountain]

I only foresee intellectual property as the main shadow for a book being sold for profit. Since the DS setting and material is copyrighted and trademarked. The monsters compendium, ds3 rules, unique races, etc, all fall under that I believe.

Whether the profit is used for advertising/server costs or whatnot, it's still profit as far as wizards is concerned, this would be a much larger issue if the material wasn't officially abandoned by wizards. When I spoke with Wizards of the coast, they were pretty adamant about the 'no profit' thing as far as Darksun is concerned.

Though I wouldn't worry about it, it doesn't draw much attention anyways. And there is a Darksun Online project in progress over at zidev's avatarpatch, but I'm fairly sure he spoke with WOTC.