Punishing New Players - a good strategy

[Anon]

I'm new to Arm but not to RPI muds or rping in general (been doing it for over 20 years). But I will be leaving Arm after 2 short weeks. The reason? Well, I'm sure there will be a ton of disagreement, but I feel that the game as run punishes new players. It's run as a preserve for the clans and the high clan pc's. Anything which might upset the status quo in the tiniest way is squashed.

I believe this manifests itself in many ways, from Imm actions to the prejudices of the player base. One glaring example is the cult of "common sense" which seeks to smash most new ideas bandied about the GDB. A good idea arises and we get a host of theories on why the game world wouldn't allow or permit such a great idea. The love of the status quo simply preserves the powers that be, again discouraging new and potentially exciting play.

More specifically, my new character had an interaction and devised a response perfectly in keeping with the pc's background. I spent almost the whole of my first week on Arm enacting the response. This response was not to unfairly enrich or empower my pc, in fact it was brazen, some might say fool-hardy. I was excited at the great potential rp to follow. Well, I recieved an email indicating that my action was going to be undone since I had not rp'ed it. I was baffled, I responded to the email, arguing my case. I even have the logs of the ic actions that took place. The response? A week of silence from the staff.

If a new player does something, one might think that the staff would want to encourage creative play. Instead, I was quashed and then ignored. It's pretty apparent that there is one accepted way to play this game. It's treated as a private club and I'm done with it. Now, please note that I'm not saying that the staff doesn't have the right to treat the game as a private club. I'm only saying that their actions speak louder than words ... they don't want new, creative players.

Out ...

[Hymwen]

While I'm not sure I know what you're talking about, the "week of silence" could be explained by the fact that most of the staff has just attended the staff meeting, and have let everyone know that response will be slow or non-existant until they come back. I don't know if your problem occured during that meeting, but if it did, that could very well be the reason.

Other than that, I don't know what actually happened in your situation, so I don't know what to tell you, except that if the staff annulled it, it must be because it was vastly out of line and conflicting with the game world.

[Larrath]

Most of the staff is away on their annual meeting.  Most of us have to deal with email silence, I strongly doubt it's anything personal.

About the "common sense", a big problem is that some of us players know things that we can't tell other players.  For example, a player might wonder why Zalanthas isn't using hard-packed silt as building bricks and make a post about it, but a few of us would have to object because we know that silt, when hard-packed, tends to explode.

I recommend you use the Player Helpers; we can really help you out when it comes to these sort of pre-emptive warnings.  Being a new player here is a bit rough, but you learn before too long and then you start swimming with the sharks and killing the others.  Heh.
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/helpers.php

[ale six]

Hi there. I'd say welcome to Armageddon, but... maybe you don't want to hear that.

Without giving us some more specific examples of what you mean regarding new ideas being squashed, it's hard to respond to your points. I can say that there has been a wealth of response to player requests for code improvements lately, and that generally the staff will entertain player plots and ideas if they're consistent and in keeping with the game world. Accomplishing things is not always easy, but it is possible. Creativity is rarely shunned. At the same time, great new ideas that involve the toppling of cities or Houses or other permanent changes to things tend to be very hard to achieve.

I'm not trying to flame here, so please don't take this as that... but I wonder if after only two weeks of play you really understand all of the IC factors around whatever plot you were trying to accomplish. The setting of Zalanthas is very deep, and there are usually multiple reasons for why things are the way they are.

Another thing to consider is that this is maybe the worst week of the year to expect speedy responses from staff. The majority of them are at their annual staff gathering, the ones that are left are probably swamped with player requests. There may be a specific staff member who needs to reply to you who isn't available.

My last bit of advice (again, please don't take this as a flame) is that often when you have a problem, taking it to the GDB isn't helpful. The only people who can really help you are the staff, and the best way to converse with them is over email, however slow it can occasionally be.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, we do try to be as welcoming to newbies as we can be. I hate to see someone deciding to quit. If you wanted to talk more about the game, there's a whole list of Helpers, or you're welcome to PM or IM me, too.

[SpyGuy]

As Hymwen said, it's AIM so expect slow responses.  That's been listed in the staff announcements.  But a week is not a long time to wait for staff assistance with anything.  In all honesty this game is played and run by volunteers, if you're doing anything major it's always best to email staff BEFORE you begin.  That way it can be organized, staff gets a heads up and you can be sure that what you're trying to do fits into the game world.  This is especially important for new players.

Now you also say you've only been playing for two weeks.  Do you really think now is the time to try and start making any changes in the game world based around your PC?  Do you even have a clear and full conception of the game world?  You say it's based primarily around the big clans and the "high clan PCs".  Guess what, you're 100% correct.  It's that was all for IC reasons, not to punish new players.  IC any character that isn't a special app, and even special apps, need to start off slow.  Try to do too much before you're established and yes, you probably will fail to make any lasting impact.

As for the GDB, expect this as well.  Even older players make dumb suggestions, I know I have.  Hell, when I was new I suggested some dumb thing like forced sleep on characters that didn't codedly sleep for days on end.  Now I would vehemently argue against that idea if it came up again, just like some older PCs did back then.  The GDB is a place of discussion, doesn't mean people will agree or go along with any idea not to mention it doesn't mean the IMMs will implement any idea you have in a timely manner.  They have their own priorities and I trust that they understand the game world much better than any player.  Perhaps people were rude on the GDB, that is too bad but it's the internet and it happens.

My advice?  Give it time, two weeks is nothing.  Don't expect things to change for you, learn to fit in the game world and become established before you think of enacting too much change.  Think small, Arm is a large, active and old MUD community and that means change happens a lot slower and more realistically than in a small, still growing and expanding MUD.  But you know what, sometimes the status quo is nice because it for me has always meant a consistent game world that can be changed realistically.  An attempt at realism in a fantasy environment, that's why I MUD here.

*SpyGuy, not being rude just trying to give some tough love*

[LoD]

I hope you do stay with the game, the good outweighs the bad.

I'd suggest giving yourself some time (more than a couple weeks) to regard the gameworld, its players, policies, methods, do's and don'ts, and nuances before stomping off into the virtual foreground.  

Have a larger perspective of your place in the grand scheme of things.  Two weeks is a very short amount of time to grasp whether or not your situation warranted the punishment or not.  I would guess the Imm Staff try to be gentler in their discipline of new players than veterans who should know better, but don't take so much offense to the action.  Reflect on what their position may have been, and why they might have felt your RP logs were not sufficient and/or applicable to the change you tried to make.

I could make an RP log of my character doing 2000 push-ups every IC day for a RL month and demand an increase to my strength stat, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.  No matter how realistic or applicable I may think the actions are, there are reasons why the Imm Staff would respond in similar fashion to me.  There's a good amount of time spent testing the boundaries when you're new to the gameworld.  You need to find out where you can push and where you can't.  Where it's realistic to make a change, and where it's not.  Where the code will allow something, and where it won't.

I imagine you will receive an email regarding your situation soon and encourage you to be patient, keep playing (another character if this punishment resulted in the loss of your character), and wait for the explanation.  As others have mentioned, the Imm Staff have been away on vacation with one another at their annual meeting and response times will be slower than usual.

We certainly want you to stay.  Feel free to speak with myself or any of the helpers if you have additional questions.  We may be a valuable resource for you. :wink:

-LoD

[Malifaxis]

I waited a month and a half once for a returned email, and got it back with a personal note of apology from one of the staff higher ups.  They were very sorry, very understanding, and very informative when they did respond.

The staff also may have just seen what you were doing, and not why you were doing it.  You can not be monitored by the staff 24/7, so when they see something very odd they will commonly contact you to ask why.

Sometimes these inquiries are a bit brusque, and tough, but they don't have time to be perfectly polite to every single person.  What may have seemed harsh to you may very well have just been someone who was rushed to answer and get back to work at their job or some such.

If you leave, that sucks.  You'll probably find some inferior RPI and stay there, I hope you enjoy it.  Nothing beats Armageddon.

[mansa]

Sometimes, I do think it is a private club.  I mean, why am I so popular?  mansa?  I'm not funny at all.  Why do people make reference to me, a lot?  You would only know this, if you followed and read everything in the GDB.  Which has more banter and information back and forth than what can be read in a month.

Sometimes, I do think it's all to maintain the status quo.  Heck, I've tried to make characters such a failure that they would eventually cause their whole family to fall with them, but it never seems to happen.  The world seems so large, and I feel so small.

When I feel like this, I usually take a break.  I follow my other hobbies, and then I return to the game and play.  I keep returning because I've -had- great memories and great friends in the past, and I want to reproduce that again.

What if I didn't have those friends that I had, when I first started playing?  I don't think I would stick it out here.  It makes me think, what is different then that is different now...

What is the entertainment I am seeking?  That's usually the first question that needs to be asked, of the players of ArmageddonMUD.

[Naiona]

Having gotten online just long enough to look at the GDB -  I am guessing I am probably the staff member being spoken of here.  As has been said, we are having our annual meeting and our internet access has been spotty at best.  Special applications have also gone unanswered all week long, as have clan emails. I will be answering email upon my return.

I hope that no one takes a lack of staff response this week personally.   We require this one week a year to sacrifice to the demons that reside within Ginka, and to revel in the destruction of many evil and delicious baked goods.

[Cowboy]

In my opinion, this is one of those messages that makes it real easy to fall over into flaming.   I don't respond to often to the GDB but I read always.  Some things discussed here beg for a response, even from me.

Preserve the high clan PC's? Keep the status quo? Please play a bit longer before you even think that. The strongest get pulled down by force, fate or trick. Clans ebb and flow, sometimes strong sometimes irrelevant.  These changes go on constantly and are PC driven.  The first few months I played this game, I "walked around with my mouth open" just trying to take in parts/interactions of  this world.  Four years later I still shake my head and grin when something I never knew, comes to light.  I can't imagine the need to affect some RP situation through the IMM"s when all one has to do is go into the Gaj or the Sanc or some other watering hole, and wait a bit. RP will find you.  Or that I would, with two weeks play and one of those weeks spent setting something up, have enough IC knowledge to pull of such a thing.  How did you (Anon) gain this insight and knowledge? Now I have a nagging interest...what exactly a two week old player would try to pull off that would motivate great RP?  Your going to miss a lot if you leave now.

[Anon Kank]

And the point of responding to this guy is?

He's new.  He's mad.  When he gets the e-mail from staff, he'll calm down and everything will be better.  If he comes back, AWESOME!  If not..  Well, he couldn't be bothered to read the Staff Announcements, about the AIM.  So, fuck 'im.

I'm sorry you're mad, Anon (The other one), but seriously..  two weeks.

[Gaare]

There are tens of threads how this ARM machine works.  Also, I would like to know, you wrote down something on GDB, or spoke with a few helpers before getting frustruated. That's not very useful to leave a goodbye message with your reasons. Lastly, number of replies to such goodbye message that claims the author may not even read it, show how new players are important for us, and how we welcome.

[Halaster]

I have been answering all email that comes to mud@armageddon.org all week long, and I don't recall anything that sounds like this in any way.  I would suggest you CC mud@armageddon.org in situations like this.  I've been active all week and had some situation like this been brought to my attention, I would have addressed it.

So, please, feel free to email mud@armageddon.org if you're not getting a response from anyone else.  Because while -some- staff are out of town, not all are.  We're still maintaining an active presence.

[Sanvean]

... they don't want new, creative players.

On the contrary.  We love new, creative players.  That's why we pay to advertise on TopMUDSites, why we have voting buttons, why I write articles to try to publicize the mud.  So much of the mud is a result of the efforts of the players - take a look at the Submissions forum to see some of the great stuff they've created.  Much of our week here has been discussing how to improve the game - including how to get and retain new players.

If you feel you've been unfairly treated, feel free to mail me (although be aware I don't have access to that account until late on Monday) and I can take a look.

But be aware as well that changing the game world takes time, effort, patience, and an understanding of the world forces that work against change.  The merchant houses, for example, will do their best to squash potential rivals.  Northern noble houses may quietly "disappear" someone that threatens their power structure.  Elvish tribes on the Tablelands will object to people trying to build there.  Etc.  I don't know what your situation is/was, but when you say that you were working on something from day one, I wonder if the problem was that you didn't understand all the forces in motion, or that you tried to create something that contradicted game norms, like a kank-riding elf.

Often with radical changes, it's a good idea to get a sanity check first, to make sure that what you're trying to do is feasible - a quesiton that might be asked of one of the helpers, or mailed to the mud account.  Sometimes people try to do things that are impossible for IC reasons that they are unaware of, and which we don't want to explain too in-depth because they touch upon game secrets that should be discovered in character.

Best of luck whether or not you stick here.  I've heard good things about Shadows of Isildur and you may find their flavor more palatable.

[jcarter]

I believe this manifests itself in many ways, from Imm actions to the prejudices of the player base. One glaring example is the cult of "common sense" which seeks to smash most new ideas bandied about the GDB. A good idea arises and we get a host of theories on why the game world wouldn't allow or permit such a great idea

This happens everywhere, honestly. A lot of people have good ideas and some of them can work and some can't. The same thing likely happens in MMO meetings:

"Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we gave rogues the ability to plant traps and lure monsters over it?"
"That would be edging onto hunter's territory and overpower rogues."
And so on.

There's not really malign in these cases as much as it's just trying to figure out what will and will not work in the game.

[Bebop]

An exclusive club.  That's what that Geiko lizard says about the Geiko website.

We should have a Ginka Lizard.

Anyway, I have been playing a bit over a year now and I still am pretty clueless about the game.  I am just getting to the point after a year, where I think I understand a decent amount.  This game is definitely tricky and intricate that's what's so awesome about it though:  the intricacy.

We were all newbs at one point in time, it's not like it's been the same 70+ players for however many years the game has been running.  And the imms are usually very leniant on confused newbs and any strange thigns they might weave into their first characters.  I know they were with mine X_X  But it's really doubtful someone playing the game for two weeks is going to understand enough to write up some intricate AND feesable plot.  I play this game alot (maybe to much) and I don't even think I would be able to do something like that after two weeks of playing.

Sometimes e-mails take awhile to be returned especially right now because of the AIM but also I would really not suggest trying to special app within your first bit of time here.  Play a character and get to know the code and game world.  No matter how much you read the docs playing is the way to begin to understand.  When I started I had my husband who has been playing this game for years to teach me, and him and and I are still learning things.  If you don't have an OOC buddy to give you some tips (I wouldn't have even known how to emote at first) then do what Larrath said.  Find a helper, they can be your OOC buddy to help you out.

Forget about your plot for awhile, play a mundane character get a feel for it and after you've been playing regularly for a few months then app it in again if you still feel it's realistic or something.  That would be my suggestion to this person and any other newbs reading this.

[Lizzie]

To the first poster in this thread:

I have to say, I haven't experienced anything like this. My character has goals and ambitions and wants to do certain things. ICly there's some friction against some of it. OOCly I haven't heard any feedback against it at all. For me it feels more like a challenge to my roleplay and not as any "punishment" against me as a player. I knew my clan IMM would be away so I haven't tried to e-mail her in the past bunch of days. If I wanted to start some kind of plotline I would wait til she came back and go over it with her and get some feedback.

You say you're not new to RPIs, but you didn't mention anything about keeping communication open with your clan IMM before trying to do something significant. The RPIs I've played all encourage and even stress this kind of communication. Perhaps you haven't ever played any of those. I've had nothing but positive experiences so far, from my first day just over a month ago up to now. I'm not a member of their clique, I don't use IMs to talk to anyone from the game, I haven't contacted any helpers. But my experience sounds vastly different from yours, and that makes me wonder why. That's all.

L. Stanson

[gfair]

I agree and disagree with a lot of the initial comments in the thread.

When I started out on Arm, I felt much the same way. A lot of comments and attitudes come across as snobbish, superior, smug, elitist. A lot of other comments come across as immature, idiotic, and detract from any good that comes from discussion. The GDB is full of various personalities, and this is only natural. I'm right in there with those categorizations of comments. In a way I think that the strict RP nature of Arm and, to an extent, the "tough love" attitude of the IMMs does tranlate into a lot of attitude by other players.

On the other hand, you can definitely say F*** all of them and go it alone. The one thing you can't do is skirt your roleplaying obligation. And honestly, the one thing that you can't afford to do is give a damn about what anybody else says unless it supports your idea. Everyone is welcome to our criticism, but we just can't regulate it very well, so you have to tune that out or else it gets to you. Hell, people seem to ignore etiquette and manners and common sense on the GDB all the time - I go nuts if I let it get to me.

But the tough love you get is actually love, it's not hate. First you have to learn the status quo before you can fling poo in the gears. And then flinging poo becomes fun, almost to the point where I want to fling it in real life. Damn all governments for disliking public indecency and poo flinging.

Getting back on track, once you know the status quo, once you know the rules, then you can rewrite them and make your own. But you have to learn them or else you will run into barriers to your ideas.

And if the GDB gets to you, then ignore it. The staff has a very good track record for finding the perfume in the pile of turd that is the GDB (at least the parts of the GDB that allows player replies). If you've got a good idea and don't want the mob to rag on it, use the submission form. Ultimately, while there are many threads that the staff watch to see player reaction, there are also a lot of threads that are simply rehashing the same ideas that have been presented for years now.


I personally began Arm as a powergamer. That didn't work. You will probably have to trample on your idea of what is good roleplaying before you get Arm and start to enjoy it and can really start to fling poo at the machinery. You have to be humbled. And you have to seek advice. Contact some of the Legends, ask them what is good RP. Search out "method acting" on the net to get some resources. I find that method acting, or at least thinking that I am the character, forces me to think critically about everything that is going on around the character and what the character is thinking. Create a character that is nothing more than a desc and background, don't come up with any plans for him or her, just make the character and get it approved. Then become that character, play in a way that is completely reactionary, read everything, picture other characters mentally. It will help you feel the world. Think back to times of extreme weather. If it's hot outside, go outside for five minutes in the sun without drinking, get an idea for thirst and heat and how good clothing is, and what you think in the heat. Go for a long walk in the heat, that will help you even more. Existentialism helps a bit if you can understand that. Meditate for a while and then come back to reality just leaving your mind blank and feeling things around you.

The more you understand what life in Arm is like, the better you will be able to understand it and manipulate your characters, and the more you will understand how you can implement your plans.

It also helps to read. There's an Arm reading list ( http://www.armageddon.org/books/recommend.html ) The books that have comments describing what characters or environments are like will really help.

Also, literature about spying and assassination and strategy are also very useful. I just finished Noble House by James Clavell, and would recommend Shogun as a book. I'm on Tai-Pan right now... all of these books give you an idea about spying and intrigue and how you can set your plans into motion in perhaps a deceptive way that makes them more interesting.

Yeah. Brain dump. You shouldn't leave, you should fight. Ignore GDB comments, never ignore staff comments, and learn about RP. Then RP at every moment you play Arm, and ask how your plan was not roleplayed properly so you can learn how to do it right. All it is is a few adjustments and then you are free to continue the idea until you hit the next roadblock. Roadblocks are good, they should be interpreted as times when you need to pause, think critically about the comments, and learn from them and then hop back in with a new perspective.

Just don't leave Arm. We need fresh veins in which to insert our needles to keep the Crackageddon going.

And always remember to fling poo once you take a step up in your understanding and acceptance of the game. Mischief is a lot of fun.

[Cenghiz]

During one of my last characters' death, I felt something unfair was happening. My temples were rippling with the blood of rage flowing to my brain. I simply shut down my computer and slept over it. For about 12 hours I sent nothing to MUD.
Then I sent a mail to the MUD account about the unfairness - about which I was sure. The response didn't delay much, because it was not AIM time. Normally responses do not delay that much, especially for important subjects. The response was so logical and that made me realize there were at least two IC factors that caused my character's death and both were reasonable. I sent a mail of apology for my semi-flaming post and kept on.
I've been playing for more than three years, I still don't know about all the factors affecting your character. Two weeks is perhaps not enough to understand all. Wait and receive your answer and do not forget to CC to mud@ginka.armageddon.org next time.

Note: This is a bit flaming, but before you start bashing down the whole system, learn about the system. If you don't CC to the mud account, you get no answer if the staff member you're sending a mail to is ill, busy, dead etc.

[Nao]

I don't know where you've played, but I've seen the three 'major' RPIs - and really, armageddon is by far the one where players have the most impact, where a good player idea is most likely to be implemented.

I'm sorry if your experience was different, but maybe resend the mail and cc mud, like halaster said? Sometimes mail gets lost, I've experienced that myself.

[bloodfromstone]

I would just like to say that I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I, after my first character that lasted more than a day's death, was violently angry with the game and ready to storm off. I felt I had been cheated in some way. Really, it was something stupid that had happened that the staff has no real control over, but I was irrationally angry. I began to see all of the bad of Arm, (I'm not going to try to fool you. It's there. There's a decent amount of it.) and I forgot all of the good. Finally, after a week or so of being angry, I apped a bs character that I could just ride around and fuck around as I desired for a little bit. Slowly, I began to see what I had loved about playing the character I lost. I remembered all of the characters and scenes that had made my PC laugh, cry, and love, and the best part about Arm (and that PC) is that I got to feel those emotions through her. As much as it ended in a crappy way, that character's run was an amazing roleplaying experience. That is what is good about Arm, and I think it is worth the bad. I hope you decide to stay, but if not, I'm glad you tried us out, and I wish you good luck in your future roleplaying experiences.

[da mitey warrior]

I think someone needs to get over themselves.  You might have twenty years experience RPing and think you're hot stuff, but you understand this game yet.  Two weeks is not long enough to understand the world, especially since you seem to have come to the game with a lot of baggage and expected the entire game to adjust itself to your idea of what is good RP rather than the other way around.  You expect to topple the status quo before understanding what the status quo is and why it is there?  Be serious.  Other people do play this game as well, and you can't expect your vision of the game (based on the previous games you've played, rather than on arm itself) to take presidense over everyone else.  Stop trying to push your ideas on everyone else and take a moment or two to learn what the world is about.  

Open your mind a bit, and you might find that this game is fun after all.

[Zacharai]

What mitey said, only with better spelling.

[Dracul]

bye

[Sir Diealot]

The above reaffirms why I love Dracul..

[Tuannon]

I think dismissing the problem with "cry more noob and bye" is not the answer.

To the OP, I tend to agree that you should get back on the horse. Heck, I made notes on what to do and what not to do when I was playing my first character. Even though I had more than a bit of luck in some sticky situations.

Also, don't be afraid to ask the crusty looking old hunter who you see every day at the bar how to make a start outside the gates. If you are an aide, don't be afraid to ask your masterrr patro.. boss what you should be doing. Communication is a handy skill.

OOCly, harass the helpers with your questions, that is what they volunteered for.