Animal Problems

[Vesperas]

OPENING DISCLAIMER:
I'm opening this for a discussion on possible ideas on how to approach a problem that I think exists, from code to player activities I (and others) could try out; I know I'm not the only one who has these opinions, and I know there are a lot of other opinions out there.  Please do not post 'tough shit' or 'get experienced, n00b' replies, though; they typically just make people mad.

Oh, and I am long winded.  Sorry.


THE PERCEIVED PROBLEM:
Most of the short time I've spent playing on Armageddon has been spent playing city-based roles (or atleast, I feel it has).  I decided to go for something a little different with a recent character, and found, to my dismay, some fatal flaws in my ultimate plan of ultimateness.

I have spent four REAL LIFE days looking for prey as a hunter-type PC.  I have spanned a massive area (trying not to get too IC), and have even tried to employ my noobish-hunter skills to try to track down something.  Wipes out that 'specialized hunter' idea right off the bat.

I found two instant-death beasties (who appeared together in one room) and one you're-almost-good-enough-loser creature in that time.  Beyond that, there was nothing but exhaustive stretches of nothingness sparsely broken by a few auto-flee animals (probably the only reason they're still there).

I am NOT complaining that there isn't anything my new hunter-type can take on... I'm complaining that it seems that the entire animal population gets wiped off the face of Zalanthas within 24 hours of first appearing.  Do I really have to OOCly plan ahead of time for animals to reappear in hopes of getting the mere honor of seeing one?  Why is that acceptable?  I am not even going to complain about the 'merchant flooding' I saw referenced in a similar thread.  If I want to hunt something, why can't I?  What if I have a PC buyer or other plans for my spoils?

For my particular problem, this is made worse by:
- My unwillingness to 'travel the known world' on a whim.  Our Known World is supposed to be HUGE; its ICly unreasonable for me to stalk from one end of it to the other in search of an animal.

- My unwillingness to join a coded clan AT THIS TIME.  I get bored fairly easily, and the possible clans I can think of at this very moment either have very few players in them, would trap me into spending a real life months twiddling my thumbs, permanantly take me away from the concept I initially wanted to play, or would force monotonous 'chores' on me, the likes of which I would get very sick of repeating again and again within hours (since I typically sit down and play for long stretches).

- My simple 'new'ness.  This will change over time, and I can be patient for it; but I don't want to be forced into doing just one thing (like foraging) for a long time just because of it.


POSSIBLE FIXES:

1.
I honestly liked an idea I saw somewhere else on the forums (I'm blind and can't find the thread!), which basically asked if it would be possible to "spread out" animal popping.  Rather than have all the creatures load together all at one time on one day, load a few at a time in different locations.  The times at which these creatures reload could vary so that players in 'off-peak' timezones could have a chance to compete.

2.
Have common or particularly prolific animals reappear more often throughout the week, starting from less populated areas and reaching inward to cities.

3.
Get SimDesert on the ball.  ^.-  *snicker*

4.
...okay, I can't think of anymore right now, but I'm sure more creative minds can come up with something.


I have heard that some animals to 'reappear' throughout the week, and that "SimDesert" has already been put into the game in some areas, but it just doesn't seem to be enough for me to notice (granted, I have not played outdoorsy types for long).

[Desertman]

Being on the other end of the spectrum I find this post odd...I have always wanted to see less creatures loaded into the game world as a means to make hunting more realistic. As it stands now if I were so inclined I could potentially hunt down five or six creatures an ic day...While I tend to shy away from this I know many people dont mind spamm hunting in this fashion and for this reason I have always wanted the numbers of creatures loaded into the game world to be drastically cut back to decrease the number of super rich indy hunters in the game world.


If you are partially starving as a newbie hunter,,,or even fully starving and making only one kill every few days if you are lucky...or less...You are rolling right down the line of what I see as the typical hunter of Zalanthas.


Simply put, I think that game is already too plentiful and want to see many hunters truly struggling to survive,,,,especially new hunters.

[jcarter]

Without knowing where you were looking, I can't really comment on things. The only places that I've had trouble finding animals is west of Tuluk and west of Allanak (occasionally), as well as anything besides insta-death on the salt falts (with exceptions). If you're looking in as big of an area as you say, you should be running into something.

Editted just to add more:

If you're a ranger, this command will let you live: forage food. Other than that, it IS possible to survive as an outdoorsy hunter without joining a clan.

[Arbonne]

It is more than possible to survive as a hunter in the wilds, its just that experience will make it alot easier.

As for the original topic, I could go with having less animals on reboot and instead spreading the respawn rate out over the week, so even if a hunter -does- wipe everything out, it won't be alot, and it'll still leave animals for those coming after.

[Vesperas]

I don't think the game is too plentiful.  I think too many people spam-hunt, simply because they can.

The idea, in my mind, behind spreading out when animals appear is making it so that these spam-hunters, even if they do clear out everything while they are online, are going to end up missing SOME animal.

I never quite understood how ANYONE could even STAND to spam-hunt.  Honestly, I would get bored after about two animals. The 'hunter PC' is, actually, incredibly boring, simple because there's NO thrill to be had.  None, zip, zero.  Except the thrill of racing the thirst code.  That's just idiotic.

I don't mind playing the half-starved hunter living on their wits.  But what sort of wits can I live on if all the spam-hunters annialate the animal population before I get there?  And like I said, one of the things I wanted to avoid is being forced to do something for long periods of time (forage food).  That just feels twinky.

I don't want to play the independant rich hunter.  I want to play a hunter, and the reason I choose to be independant is because I feel that, in the area I'm playing in (the North), there just arn't enough people to keep me interested inside a House... being independant gives me to option to go LOOKING for people, or finding something different to do besides reading descriptions.

Edited to add:  Perhaps I'm just being too pessimistic, and I'm sorry if my opinions in this post come across as brash.  I have never had a 'good time' in the north except on one occassion, and that was only because I was still involved with roleplay in the south.  Not saying Tuluk sucks, I think its a cool area.. I just don't have as much fun as I could.

[Synthesis]

I don't really see what the problem is.

Any time I've played a character who hunted for a living, the only difficulty I had was restraining myself from getting obscenely wealthy from hunting profits.  (Not counting my very first character, a hunter, who went 3 rooms west of Tuluk and was already lost, and got killed by a halfling, heh.)

But seriously...if you can't find things to hunt, you probably just aren't trying hard enough.

[Vesperas]

I don't really see what the problem is.

Any time I've played a character who hunted for a living, the only difficulty I had was restraining myself from getting obscenely wealthy from hunting profits.  (Not counting my very first character, a hunter, who went 3 rooms west of Tuluk and was already lost, and got killed by a halfling, heh.)

But seriously...if you can't find things to hunt, you probably just aren't trying hard enough.

I have tried 'hard enough':  I don't think its reasonable for a hunter PC, new or not, to spend more than one or two real-life hours looking for an animal.  Any animal.  It just feels like if I spend too much time in the wilderness, its like I've stopped playing Armageddon and have gone back to Accursed Lands or some other thinly-veiled hack-and-slash.

I know that part of the problem I'm having is PLAYER inexperience -- while I've played a little over a year, I have never played an independant, RARELY played in the north (due the fact that I end up getting frustrated over and over and over, just like I am now), and havn't really played an out-doors type.  I don't know the tips and tricks, how to twinkishly milk the NPC world for all it has, and the easiest way to swipe over a landscape and take out anything that walks in it.  But I know I'm not alone.

The amount of frustration I've experienced with this PC makes me not even want to log in.  It's a CHORE to play.  I don't want to spend my free time skill-building all the time or playing against code that I (sadly enough!) support.

I should probably go back to playing city-based PCs and leave the vast majority of the rest of the game alone, but that has caused burn out.



Edited to add:  I am not championing making the game easier.  I'm starting to derail now, so I'll just reiterate the original topic:  I'm looking for a discussion on how to make this problem less .... obvious/annoying, either through some practices I could do, or suggested code changes.  "Spam hunters" are not something we can treat -- they are there, and they are NOT going to change their ways just because someone tells them to stop monopolizing.  I'm looking for ways to avoid the problems they cause instead.

[Jherlen]

You mentioned you were able to find auto-flee animals?

Hunt those.

Get a bow. Find other ways to get close enough to kill them.

If you're hunting near Allanak, you should be able to find scrab easily. If you're hunting near Tuluk, the grasslands will have PLENTY of critters to kill.

[Vesperas]

You mentioned you were able to find auto-flee animals?

Hunt those.

Get a bow. Find other ways to get close enough to kill them.

If you're hunting near Allanak, you should be able to find scrab easily. If you're hunting near Tuluk, the grasslands will have PLENTY of critters to kill.

Archery is something the game is set up for you to build up to.  I'm not ready for it, money or skill-wise.  That's the way I feel, anyway.  Until I can branch or can afford to use other methods/skills, I'm stuck with the choices of either submitting myself to a clan or foraging my brains out.

But yes... I am glad that there are atleast auto-flee animals around, even if I can't touch the little bastards.

[Jherlen]

Archery is something the game is set up for you to build up to.  I'm not ready for it, money or skill-wise.  That's the way I feel, anyway.  Until I can branch or can afford to use other methods/skills, I'm stuck with the choices of either submitting myself to a clan or foraging my brains out.

But yes... I am glad that there are atleast auto-flee animals around, even if I can't touch the little bastards.

Clans are what taught me to hunt. Find your friendly neighborhood Salarr/Kadius Sergeant. Or just ask people if they know any ways to hunt duskhorn/tandu/etc without a bow. It's doable.

[SpyGuy]

Best advice is to ICly join with some sort of hunter organization, learn the tricks of the trade from an experienced hunter.  That will satisfy a lot of your RP desires on the wastes and give you the OOC knowledge to survive as a hunter.

[jcarter]

You really don't have to forage your brains out too bad to get food, it gets a lot easier over time.

If you're in Allanak, there's a LOT you can do to supplement your income. Mining is a great source of money, as well as foraging salt. You don't have to be clanned to survive out there. As for animals, I ran into a couple both times I was riding away from the city, but your mileage may very.

Hunting things can be fun, but it's not the only fun aspect of being a hunter, especially an independent one. You need to figure out what exactly you want out of the character. I enjoyed riding around with my hunter and being able to come and go as I pleased. One day he might be gathering salt, the next riding through the scrub. He survived mostly of tubers, and getting some gurth meat was a real treat. Just because you're a hunter also doesn't mean you're above heading into the city and sitting down for a good drink every now and then as well.

[Vesperas]

You really don't have to forage your brains out too bad to get food, it gets a lot easier over time.

If you're in Allanak, there's a LOT you can do to supplement your income. Mining is a great source of money, as well as foraging salt. You don't have to be clanned to survive out there. As for animals, I ran into a couple both times I was riding away from the city, but your mileage may very.

Hunting things can be fun, but it's not the only fun aspect of being a hunter, especially an independent one. You need to figure out what exactly you want out of the character. I enjoyed riding around with my hunter and being able to come and go as I pleased. One day he might be gathering salt, the next riding through the scrub. He survived mostly of tubers, and getting some gurth meat was a real treat. Just because you're a hunter also doesn't mean you're above heading into the city and sitting down for a good drink every now and then as well.

I totally agree with this entire post.  It's sums up how I feel.  This post stems from the problem that I feel I've wasted ALL of my time trying to get started out and trying to just codedly stay alive, with nothing left over for leisure roleplay or tavern-sitting.

I don't think Tuluk/Luir's has enough 'other' income for "n00bs", besides wood-harvesting, which is almost as competitive as actually hunting is.  If it did, I may not be having such a fit right now.  Hmm.

The archery suggestion is, by far, one the best pieces of advice I've gotten out of the thread, even though it can't really be applied to me and my PC right now.  Everything else just makes me want to store again and go back to playing southern city-based PCs.

[SpyGuy]

South has forage salts.  North has foraging tubers.  Get your cooking up, maybe find some buyers for cooked/uncooked foods?  That's a good way for a low class independent to get some pocket change in Tuluk.

As for how to make big money, well that you'd need to find out IC  :wink:

[Arbonne]

If it's the problem about the animals, in the north, the auto-flee animals are actually what you should go for. Try different methods other  than archery, though it may take awhile.  :roll:

In terms of in general hunting, it depends mainly upon where you are looking, and when the last group of PCs came by (unfortunately), at least in the north and some parts of the south. Joining a clan if you are a beginning hunter OOCly is the best bet, or at least with a hunter group formed ICly. That way with a group, you can at least go for those larger prey you wouldn't normally have a chance at.

[jcarter]

As a southerner who will spend time outside, this is what you should be saving up for: a kank. I've got the feeling right now that you don't have one. At the beginning, you WILL just be struggling to survive. Things are going to be very basic and very coded. The best you can do at this point is scrape by and save.  For your first day or so played, it's going to be slow. You'll forage food and waste money on water, until you get better with foraging for food.

If you have a kank, by all means mine or forage for salt. It will definitely, definitely help. Don't feel that you're above it since you're a hunter. Hunters can't always expect to have an animal to kill, skin, and sell and eat.

Talk to merchants. Find out if anyone needs stones. Wander around a lot too. Pick and sell everything you can. See that plant with those fancy leaves? More than likely, there is SOMEONE that will buy them. Surprisingly, there was a lot more of things like that around and outside of Allanak than I had thought. A lot of those kinds of things you'll only notice when you're in the same room as it.

Other than that, the first couple of days as a hunter do suck. You could always try joining the Byn and get some training for however long you like and then leaving.

[Agent_137]

Archery is something the game is set up for you to build up to. I'm not ready for it, money or skill-wise.

no no no non ononononononono!
it pisses me off when people say, "I can't afford ranged weaponry!!!"

But you've played city characters all this time. Maybe you don't know about how cheap it is to buy a slingshot, and how easy it is to find rocks with newbie forage. You don't learn archery by saving up to buy a damn bow. You learn by doing. so go do it.

Also, I've never been one to have any desire to go through the tough newbie time if a characters life alone when I can do it cheaply and safely in the Byn. It would get your melee combat up, and since you aren't using bows until you can afford it, it might put a little 'sid in your pocket to buy a bow with.

And if you can't handle chores (which is still RP to me, how does your char handle those chores? Is he good at them, bad at them, lazy, and why?), then you can always quit the byn early. They have your 300 'sid, they don't mind that much.

So while I've never done the indie hunter thing, I don't think it's a problem that it's -really really- hard for an indie hunter. It should be.

As far as preventing spam hunting, well, I really think only Immortal Smack Downs can really stop it case by case. A way to reduce it's effects is as you suggested, more creatures popping at sort of random times in various places, and eventually full sim-desert everywhere.

[Aldiel]

You mentioned you were able to find auto-flee animals?

Hunt those.

Get a bow. Find other ways to get close enough to kill them.

If you're hunting near Allanak, you should be able to find scrab easily. If you're hunting near Tuluk, the grasslands will have PLENTY of critters to kill.

Archery is something the game is set up for you to build up to.  I'm not ready for it, money or skill-wise.  That's the way I feel, anyway.  Until I can branch or can afford to use other methods/skills, I'm stuck with the choices of either submitting myself to a clan or foraging my brains out.

But yes... I am glad that there are atleast auto-flee animals around, even if I can't touch the little bastards.

Use a dagger or spear, if you want to focus on combat, it's a better way to hunt fleeing animals.

[Aldiel]

I also don't find that there's a problem.  You have to break into the hunting grounds slowly, but the better you get, the farther from the city you can go.  I think that's realistic and how it should be.  Struggle to find a few vestrics, then when you're strong enough, go rustle up some gortok then, later, some raptor then, later, some halflings.  It's a progression that makes being a hunter quite fun.

[Nao]

I'm pretty sure animals don't only respawn at the reboots, they're just hard to find sometimes.

Try asking around where the good spots are.

Always LOOK into all directiosn when you're out there so oyu don't miss an animal that'c near, but not int he same room -- of course, that makes a day where you can only see one room far not exactly the ideal day for hunting, also, anything could jump you, one of my early characters was a semi-indie around Allanak, so this is definuitely doable.

try to roam a large area - also, when you've already seent eh spot, you don't have to go there - that also means that on your way back, you might want to move so far that you're roaming somewhere you haven't looked yet.

If you're a ranger - then don't start with scrab, they're nasty.

For auto-flee critters: I can think of at least three ways to get those, one where you need a kank, another where you need ranged combat and one where you need a skilled ranger.

Also, get a kank if you don't have one already.

[marko]

I'm pretty sure animals only respawn at the reboots, they're just hard to find sometimes.

Animals respawn between reboots.

[Jorlain]

Clans are what taught me to hunt.

And here, all this time, I thought I did.  :wink:

[Maybe42or54]

Templars taught me how to hunt.
Kill three an OOC day, and everything will be OK.

[Agent_137]

I'm pretty sure animals only respawn at the reboots, they're just hard to find sometimes.

Animals respawn between reboots.

I thought -some- animals respawn.

[Aldiel]

I don't know if they all do, but many of them do.