Stamina Drain on Hit and Kill command?

[mansa]

Stamina Drain on Hit and Kill command?

[jhunter]

Not unless each attack during combat drains stamina as well. It wouldn't make any sense for the first attack to drain stamina and none of the others to do so as well.

[Agent_137]

unless you consider it "engaging" the enemy.

This gives an advantage to the one fleeing. I object on those grounds.

[mansa]

Not unless each attack during combat drains stamina as well. It wouldn't make any sense for the first attack to drain stamina and none of the others to do so as well.

Why does sap or backstab give stamina drain, then?  I think there should be some stamina drain on the hill or kit commands.

[Arbonne]

Not unless each attack during combat drains stamina as well. It wouldn't make any sense for the first attack to drain stamina and none of the others to do so as well.

Why does sap or backstab give stamina drain, then?  I think there should be some stamina drain on the hill or kit commands.

Likely because of the process of sneaking up to someone undetected long enough to get that first hit off. Different from running up and attacking directly.

[jcarter]

Stamina Drain on Hit and Kill command?

Do you really think it should go in or are you just playing devil's advocate?

[mansa]

I really think it should go in.  It should happen with the assist command, too.

[Intrepid]

I wouldn't mind it myself and I'm currently playing a Warrior.

I think all physical attempts of some kind should have stamina drains.  The
exceptions would be passive sensory attempts or social attempts, such as
Value, Haggle, Scan and Listen.  These more wear down the mind than
the body.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Stamina drain on emote command?

[mansa]

Stamina drain on emote command?

You do understand that there -is- a stamina drain introduced for the backstab skill, and for the sap skill.

Both those skills also have a longer wait period than the kill command.

Why should it not also be implemented on the kill command?

[jcarter]

Stamina drain on emote command?

You do understand that there -is- a stamina drain introduced for the backstab skill, and for the sap skill.

Both those skills also have a longer wait period than the kill command.

Why should it not also be implemented on the kill command?

Why should it be? The only reasons you have given is pointing out that other commands have it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Why should it not also be implemented on the kill command?

Because I'm starting to grow weary of the trend for a code change that is really only going to affect a desert elf.

[Vesperas]

Bad idea.


I've seen enough well-roleplayed fatigue in combat to say stamina-draining would be pointless -- just adding in something to annoy us with. Hehe.

Backstab and sap require you to spend energy being sneaky, and then a sudden use of energy trying to take someone out in ONE blow.

[bloodfromstone]

I'm not really a big fan of any of this new stamina drain business. No, I don't play mostly warriors, and I don't spam kick/bash/german_suplex commands. I mostly feel it is unnecessary.
If we were shooting for realism, everyone would get a small stamina drain during combat, rather than at set intervels when using skills that are mostly just a part of fighting, but represented by coded skills. I really don't feel the act of swatting someone's sword takes more effort than swatting their head.
But I only say that as an aside. The main thing for me is that it never felt broken in the first place. Maybe I didn't play with the right (or wrong, if you will) people. Maybe I'm too impatient to want the game to get to the point where I'm going to spend more time resting than actively doing things. I know that's being overly dramatic, but it's a fear of mine.

I don't really see a reason to add a drain onto kill, but I didn't see a reason to add it to any of the other commands, either, so take that as you will. In the end, I suppose I'll survive either way.

[Ghost]

I am against the idea of putting stamina drain on hit/kill.  Well, there is a stamina drain on sap/backstab or kick/disarm/bash.  So I would like to have a stamina drain proof way, an ordinary way to engage in combat, and hit/kill would stand for that.

[marko]

Backstab and sap require you to spend energy being sneaky, and then a sudden use of energy trying to take someone out in ONE blow.

The logic that I see for backstab and sap to use stamina is that the person moves across the room (or rather, some distance) to strike at the target during the _lag time_ of the command.  So a stamina loss is on top of an already existing coded wait time for these commands.

With kill / hit this exact same logic can be applied.  Therefore, I don't see why not.

Many people when they kill / hit someone do a small charging emote or a leaping forward emote or something along those lines.  Therefore, doesn't it make the same sense?

Arguably the stamina loss would be less than that of sap or backstab but I can still see it being some like half the stamina-loss value of the room the PC is currently in to reflect upon that charge / sudden attack at the victim.

[jhunter]

Many people when they kill / hit someone do a small charging emote or a leaping forward emote or something along those lines. Therefore, doesn't it make the same sense?

And people are -not- just standing in one place during a fight swinging at each other. They are moving around, dodging parrying, and all sorts of stuff that is physically tiring. Therefore, if hit/kill is to have stamina drain, so should -all- attacks, dodges, parries...etc...














And...warriors -should- experience -less- of this than non-warriors.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Amen, Jhunter.

[Maybe42or54]

And if all that has stamina drain (dodge, parry, etc), all the drain on disarm, bash, kick, and so on would have to go up to compensate and actually still be harder than a normal slash.

[Larrath]

I agree with jhunter.
I would much like to see each round of combat drain 1 point of stamina from each combatant for the movement involved, with warriors (or any d-elf) only losing 1 stamina per two rounds as they would be best trained at conserving their energy and going through long fights.
Stamina drain will stop completely when the attacker reaches 15 stamina points, but they will fight with a penalty to their combat skills.  That would help those of us who want to tire out a stronger opponent in order to kill him.

This would primarily hinder rangers, but so far most people seem to portray fighting as something that's hardly tiring at all and this could be a good way to portray that.  It's a surefire way to stop day-long sparring sessions and possibly make over-hunting more difficult.

I'd also like to see Bash do some movement damage to the opponent if they're hit badly - not more than 5 or so.


So in summary:
Non-warriors or non-desert elves lose 1 Movement per round of combat involving them (even if they're just being attacked).
Warriors or desert elves lose 1 Movement every 2 rounds of combat.
Being knocked down by Bash will cause light Movement damage.

Movement drainage by combat (or bash) will be stop when the character reaches 12% or so of their maximal movement, at which point they'll take penalties to their combat abilities.

[jhunter]

So in summary:
Non-warriors or non-desert elves lose 1 Movement per round of combat involving them (even if they're just being attacked).
Warriors or desert elves lose 1 Movement every 2 rounds of combat.
Being knocked down by Bash will cause light Movement damage.

Movement drainage by combat (or bash) will be stop when the character reaches 12% or so of their maximal movement, at which point they'll take penalties to their combat abilities.

I completely agree with Larrath's suggestion above. Also, a minor reduction on the max amount of stam loss from kick, disarm, bash....etc...the ones used -during- melee. Make those...2-4 pts per use.

[moab]

I agree with jhunter.
I would much like to see each round of combat drain 1 point of stamina from each combatant for the movement involved, with warriors (or any d-elf) only losing 1 stamina per two rounds as they would be best trained at conserving their energy and going through long fights.
Stamina drain will stop completely when the attacker reaches 15 stamina points, but they will fight with a penalty to their combat skills.  That would help those of us who want to tire out a stronger opponent in order to kill him.

This would primarily hinder rangers, but so far most people seem to portray fighting as something that's hardly tiring at all and this could be a good way to portray that.  It's a surefire way to stop day-long sparring sessions and possibly make over-hunting more difficult.

I'd also like to see Bash do some movement damage to the opponent if they're hit badly - not more than 5 or so.


So in summary:
Non-warriors or non-desert elves lose 1 Movement per round of combat involving them (even if they're just being attacked).
Warriors or desert elves lose 1 Movement every 2 rounds of combat.
Being knocked down by Bash will cause light Movement damage.

Movement drainage by combat (or bash) will be stop when the character reaches 12% or so of their maximal movement, at which point they'll take penalties to their combat abilities.

OMG YES!!!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And if all that has stamina drain (dodge, parry, etc), all the drain on disarm, bash, kick, and so on would have to go up to compensate and actually still be harder than a normal slash.

Nope. Not really. If you lost a point per attack, it would even things out. If a warrior lost 1 point per round instead of attack, or 1 point per two attacks, it would still be evened out, and warriors would have the upper hand, as they should.

[mansa]

Now, we've moved into discussion about stamina drain DURING combat, which isn't what I was talking about at the start of the thread.

We can move on to it now.  I'm okay with that.

I think that stamina drain shouldn't be on the ticks or rounds of combat, but rather after a certain ammount of time.  Every 60 ticks of combat should lower stamina a little bit.

Or, perhaps, after 10 minutes of combat, stamina just starts to drop.

Of course the warriors would last longer in combat.  Imagine a ranger dropping to near 0 stamina after fighting a warrior for a half-hour, and then just stop moving because he's pooped.

Because every game tick is nearly a second.  Imagine losing 60 stamina in one minute.

[Kalden]

It would be better if it was based on skill and the endurance stat - you lose stamina more slowly if you're well-trained.

I can see endurance being even more useful in the future if we had this change, which I think would be a good thing. It's usually considered the worst stat - some may argue with me, but I'm pretty sure it's the least helpful in combat right now.

[moab]

Endurance the worst stat?

You joke.

Hp, Poison Saves, Stun

In combat Endurance is what's going to keep you alive long enough to figure out what you need to do next.

[Maybe42or54]

Magick saves.
How far you can fall before you see stars.

I'd rather all this get RP'ed then forced down our throats.

[Kalden]

Endurance the worst stat?

You joke.

Hp, Poison Saves, Stun

In combat Endurance is what's going to keep you alive long enough to figure out what you need to do next.

Having played a coupla guys with AI endurance...I couldn't notice a difference. My AI endurance guys (d-elves) didn't even have HP or stamina that was all that great. What keeps you alive (and kills the other guy) is agility, then strength. My experience.

The stun point recovery was pretty nice. I could hold onto the Way forever as a newbie.

[Agent_137]

can we split stamina into movement and stamina first, before we start doing anything else with this stamina drain business?

[jhunter]

That would've been my choice before we started doing this stam drain originally. Unfortunately, I believe the answer we recieved was something like:"no way, no how".

Since we're doing off stamina now. It needs to continue on and be spread throughout in order for it all to make sense and be realistic.

[Maybe42or54]

Whatever happened to fun and playability.

[jcarter]

I have never, in my entire time of playing Armageddon, ever seen someone do something like spar for an entire IC day.

Even in stalemates, it would be broken off with both members backing off and panting heavily.

[Angela Christine]

I foresee Runners starting to spam combat skills because of this change.  If you exhaust yourself with 5 kicks just before lunch, you can say you are too tired to clean the latrines!   :twisted:


Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

I forsee a lot of combat not happening, making the world less harsh.


Joe Nobody meets Joe Somebody in the wilderness.
JS's Person thinks "If I beat up JN and it looks rather easy, I have to go rest in a cave for a 20 minutes waiting to be rested again so I can hunt. I'll just smile and pass him by and go hunt something."

Jn's player thinks, "Man! I've been looking for this Pc to kill him for about 3 OOC months. I finally found him, but I just went hunting for food and that fast skeet really wore me out. Guess I'll have to wait three more months."

JN waves at JS and rides away as JS does the same.

The wilds will be peaceful again. How sweet.

And I know RPTs will take a hit when they involve leaving the city and possible attacks.

[Maybe42or54]

And if these go in, I think Ride should have stamina drain also.
1-4 per room.

I still don't see how disarming once in a fight is more draining than riding from city to city.

[WWYD]

..Why the hell would Ride have a stamina drain? That..honestly makes no sense to me. You're not the one movng, your mount is.

[jcarter]

And if these go in, I think Ride should have stamina drain also.
1-4 per room.

I still don't see how disarming once in a fight is more draining than riding from city to city.

Eat also.

Who doesn't feel tired after eating a big meal?

[Maybe42or54]

..Why the hell would Ride have a stamina drain? That..honestly makes no sense to me. You're not the one movng, your mount is.

Why wouldn't it?
Stirrups were invented for a reason, most animals IG don't have stirrups.
Giant insect or not, you aren't riding over flat land, most of the time, the air isn't just chilly enough, most of the time, the wind is blowing, most of the time.

Hell, driving my car is tiring. And riding takes up more muscles then that.

[Agent_137]

Eat also.

Who doesn't feel tired after eating a big meal?

i'm with jcarter. we need stamina drains on EVERYTHING.

[Maybe42or54]

Sitting in a tavern and talking is tiring. That should have stamina drain also. Walking from one side of the city to the other is tiring, that should have the drain on it.

Or you know.. we could make it so the game is more fun than RL. That is just an idea though.

[Jherlen]

Reading threads whining about stamina on the GDB drains stamina.

[Bluefae]

I thought Larrath's suggestions were an elegant balance between playability and realism.

[mansa]

Most of the death-fights my characters have been in, ended VERY shortly, and usualy in locked rooms or estates, and NEVER have I experienced long prolonged fights, EXCEPT in training.

In all my years of playing I never had to worry about stamina and now I just may.  I really like these changes and wish to see them be across the game rather just 5 skills.

[bloodfromstone]

Not that I would like to see stamina drain on riding go in, but riding IS tiring, believe it or not. I'm sure we've all heard of people who don't ride often being "saddle sore" afterwards. This is not because of friction against the saddle or anything. It's because the muscles in your legs that you use to hold yourself atop a mount (a horse, anyway. I can't say I've ever ridden a kank in real life, but I'd bet that it's rougher than our earth steeds) are being used in a fashion that we rarely use otherwise. Hence, they get tired and sore. When you step off of a horse and onto the ground, your legs feel it. It would not be easy to jump off of a horse and take off running.

That's just my realism bit. That said, I'd really dislike seeing riders get tired with movement, but I'm pretty sure Maybe was just being facetious.

[Hot_Dancer]

I actually experienced my first, very long.. prolonged fight with another pc a couple weeks or so ago. Despite how angry our characters were with eachother for whatever reason, we couldn't effectively injure eachother but for small bits at a time or the odd advantage through skill use. (Though, this was just before stamina drains had been added I believe).

I wish I would've logged the battle. It was really quite enjoyable, with both combatants steadily displaying their growing fatigue through emotes as it drug on..though, it did end more towards the accumulation of wounds.

I'd like to see uses of special attack items (various bracers/gloves) add some stamina drain or weakened/blockable by shield. *Hah* as currently, they're more efficient than using skills like kick or bash and have been made a much larger advantage in combat with the changes. They were already quite the boon before..

It's not a bad idea to 'rant' about (more like discuss) the stamina drains. I figured it was still in a feedback stage. Honestly, I'm in love with Maybe's concept of riding causing fatigue. Even if it's light, reasonably more effective than desert elf running.

HotDancer

[marko]

I would like to see combat slowly drain stamina but only after X amount of time of fighting.  Perhaps something like five minutes of combat before stamina starts to trickle away.  Perhaps having it being based on the endurance stat.  But, I'd rather see a grace period of no stamina drain.  Of course, this may just lead to people fleeing once stamina starts dropping and restarting a fight but if it is a timer that doesn't pop off for awhile I don't see that being a big deal.

EG, the burly DE decides to fight the scrawny half-elf.

After five minutes of fighting the burly DE flees 'cause he sees the stamina drain kicking in.  He then runs back in to re-attack.

Burly DE and scrawny half-elf both lose stamina in combat now because of some timer behind the scenes.

The actual mechanics of the stamina loss I'm uncertain about - often fights have more than a hundred hits so I'd be hesistant to do a single stamina drain per hit.  That seems to drain too fast.  But, I dunno offhand.  And thankfully, I'm not coding this stuff so I'll leave that up to them to figure out.  Assuming they even go this route which they may not.  

One thing I would like to see after all of this is done is to see 0 stamina people being able to still move although at a very slow rate.  Otherwise I see a bunch of exhausted and collapsed people all over the game world.  heh

Personally, I think stamina drain changes favor desert elves but I guess that's just me.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I skipped most of this after reading the first page...

There is an art to sapping or backstabbing someone, just like kicking, bashing or disarming.

Kill or hit is just stepping up to someone and taking a swing.  No art.  No skill.  I am against this idea.