More intellegent npcs

[UnderSeven]

Okay.  I've more or less brought this up in varying degrees.  But now I feel it might deserve its own post.

With the new costs to combat, while ultimately, I agree with them, I feel that in a wide game sense, players are getting a nerf.  Why?  Well in the traveling/hunting or just general npc fighting realm, while I'm sure npcs will lose movement points too.. . .Who cares?  Does the npc?  Most certainly not and I doubt if it will affect their play.  For the most part, npcs don't tend to spam skills in the first place, but then again, unless it's been fixed, I've seen npcs spam skills, suggesting it's random when they use them and therefore possible for them to use one over and over again.  And since an npc has no care for fleeing, spends most of it's time in one place, moving every 10 or so minutes, the only way this would benefit a player is if by some chance it ran out of move points and couldn't spam it's skills.  

Furthermore with npcs, I've noticed in the past, that some have unique skills, like a [cool, surprising-to-some-people skill] specific to it's class.  Will these skills also be hit with ST drains?

[EDIT:  Removing some info -- Xygax]  

Ultimately Arm is supposed to be and is a very harsh place.  No matter how careful you are, chances are something is going to get you, and sometimes I fear the game is made (or left harsh) practically for the sake of being harsh.  I'm not suggesting anyone is out to get players (except maybe Halaster (that's a joke btw)), but I am simply pointing out how it can sometimes feel to me as a player.  

So here is what I am suggesting:

Add another piece onto Agro npcs.  Not all agro things should act the same anyway, take a [XXXXXX] for instance.  From what I would guess, they probably don't eat meat and infact prefer plants.  Heh, they must go hungry often.  Well anyway why does a plant eater attack you? Drive you off their territory, or because they're affraid.  So there should be consideration for an npc, like a [XXXXXX], who likely attacks for defense purposes.  Perhaps they should be agro, [AAARGH], but only to an extent, leave you alone if you get far enough away (say it considers you no longer a threat to itself or it's territory)

Then there are the agro npcs that are doing it for food, lets take Tembo.  For them it's a different consideration.  They have to be able to fight you, kill you and prevent other tembo/halflings/meat eaters in general from coming and stealing their easy kill.  Therefore agro npcs doing it for food should probably flee if their ST or HP get too low and by too low I don't mean poor condition, but say beyond the point of regen.

Now you might be thinking, okay _7, but if we do this the game will get way to easy to survive.  So yeah, it should be more complex than the above examples.  For instance, who instigates the attack.  If an agro npc is attacked it would probably consider you a grave deal more threateneing and not leave you alone as quickly.  If there are more than one of it's kind around and they're working in packs, it should probably also not be as easily chased off.  Or if it's say a tembo, fairly solitary and in the process of getting mauled, it mauls you much worse, maybe it shouldn't flee but instead chase you down figuring youre so close to dead whats the point in not finishing the job.

Maybe this would be a pain to code, but not only do I think it would balance out what may be the start of more realistic combat changes, but I also think it would add a great deal more color and thought to the game in how npcs act.  

As with most ideas, I'm sure there is plenty wrong with what i've suggested, including that it would likely be a pain to code, but let this be the start of the idea system, where people tear it apart and if there is some value worth considering.. Maybe sometime months down the line someone might consider how to implement something like it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Good post.

In the past, I've suggested that MOBprogs be written for NPCs that take care of these things. Now that we have JAVA capabilities, it should be even easier and less-system intensive.

Hopefully a Staff Member picks this up as a project fairly soon.

[jmordetsky]

I don't play outdoors much anymore, But from what I can see of aggro mobs in the cities, they are effected by the stam drain, to some extent.

For example recently I got attacked by a npc warrior. It was kicking, bashing, disarming all sorts. But eventually, I would see "So and so tries to knock the weapon from your hand." but nothing would happen. And when I assess them, they were exhausted.

This leads me to believe that he was out of stamina and while his dumb mob brain wanted to disarm me, he couldn't really.

I killed him and spiked his head against the wall. Then took his sister back to my apartment which still had two IC days left on it....

....Err, sorry...I went off on a tagent there. The important thing is, that some NPCs are effected by the stam drain, from what jmordetsky can see.

All that said. I am generally for more intelligent npcs. I just wanted to post my little story too.

[UnderSeven]

Typically npcs are affected by the same stuff players are, my point though was referring to special npc only skills, like the [cool things some NPCs do sometimes that PCs can't do] (certain ones only) Does THAT have any drawbacks?  

Because it seems to me moves like those can be fired over and over with no drawbacks to the npc.

[EDIT:  Removing potentially surprising-to-some-people-information -- Xygax]

[Xygax]

Please.  If you were surprised (pleasantly, or unpleasantly) by something the first time it happened to you (or the first time you heard about it from someone on the GDB *grumble*mutter*), please don't ever post about it here.  It should very obviously be considered IC information.  Let someone else be surprised.

-- X

[Sir Diealot]

You seriously think that, whether an NPC is affected by an aspect code or not.. is an IC thing?

[Maybe42or54]

Uh yea..

If they aren't, then a lot of NPCs wouldn't ever stop disarming/kicking/bashing.

They would chase you around for years and still be able to disarm and beat the shit out of you when you are exhausted.

[Sir Diealot]

'IC info' thing.  Not, something IC.. I mean, I can understand keeping actual secrets, that -matter- secret.  However, I see no point in hiding the fact that NPC A is also affected by stamina drain.  Thats an aspect of the code.. plain and simple.

[Morgenes]

'IC info' thing.  Not, something IC.. I mean, I can understand keeping actual secrets, that -matter- secret.  However, I see no point in hiding the fact that NPC A is also affected by stamina drain.  Thats an aspect of the code.. plain and simple.

Please note that what Xygax edited out of the post had nothing to do with whether or not a certain NPC experienced stamina drain.  All NPCs are treated the same as PCs in regards to stamina drain for the skills that have drain associated with them.

As has been stated by myself in at least one of the many stamina drain posts, yes, we need better AI for NPCs to take into account stamina drain.

That said, feel free to discuss to your hearts content what that logic would be.

[UnderSeven]

Geeze it is hard to keep track of all these multi thread discussions, from what Morg just said I don't really see much more point in discussion here.

Sorry bout the little more information that prefered there Immies.  I was trying to keep it as zip lipped as I could, but yeah my apologies.

[jstorrie]

Those things are incredibly vicious and do seem to act oddly for creatures that aren't directly out to make meals of PCs, though. I've always wondered why they were so codedly aggressive.

[Agent_137]

I feel that in a wide game sense, players are getting a nerf.

boo hoo.

personally, i like it when they nerf characters.

make the world harder, please. (seriously.)

THANK YOU SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER?

[FightClub]

'IC info' thing.  Not, something IC.. I mean, I can understand keeping actual secrets, that -matter- secret.  However, I see no point in hiding the fact that NPC A is also affected by stamina drain.  Thats an aspect of the code.. plain and simple.

Please note that what Xygax edited out of the post had nothing to do with whether or not a certain NPC experienced stamina drain.  All NPCs are treated the same as PCs in regards to stamina drain for the skills that have drain associated with them.

As has been stated by myself in at least one of the many stamina drain posts, yes, we need better AI for NPCs to take into account stamina drain.

That said, feel free to discuss to your hearts content what that logic would be.

I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out, but npc's tend to regenerate at -- unholy rates.  Per say you went to fight a gith, retreated cause he was a bit strong, you're both moderately wounded he's exhausted, and wanted to gather a friend, by time you got back, you might've regen'd 4 hp, the gith on the other hand would be fully healed, rested, and in prime condition to kick your ass again, and probably your buddies too.  Is this something that's purposely put there to prevent players from sleeping and going back in, or what?

[Morgenes]

'IC info' thing.  Not, something IC.. I mean, I can understand keeping actual secrets, that -matter- secret.  However, I see no point in hiding the fact that NPC A is also affected by stamina drain.  Thats an aspect of the code.. plain and simple.

Please note that what Xygax edited out of the post had nothing to do with whether or not a certain NPC experienced stamina drain.  All NPCs are treated the same as PCs in regards to stamina drain for the skills that have drain associated with them.

As has been stated by myself in at least one of the many stamina drain posts, yes, we need better AI for NPCs to take into account stamina drain.

That said, feel free to discuss to your hearts content what that logic would be.

I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out, but npc's tend to regenerate at -- unholy rates.  Per say you went to fight a gith, retreated cause he was a bit strong, you're both moderately wounded he's exhausted, and wanted to gather a friend, by time you got back, you might've regen'd 4 hp, the gith on the other hand would be fully healed, rested, and in prime condition to kick your ass again, and probably your buddies too.  Is this something that's purposely put there to prevent players from sleeping and going back in, or what?

Or it could be that you only regened 4hps cause you took the time going back to get your buddy and he didn't?

Regen rates of NPCs is different than PCs.  I can't speak to the exact reasoning, but what you propose is likely the reason.  It could be a fragment of old NPC ai, or lack there of.

[Fnord]

This is a good thread that is getting derailed. The tangential conversation has been beaten to death in countless other theads. Let it go, please.

As for the original subject, I agree. More MobProgs would be awesome. They would make the NPCs feel more alive, and would increase player immersion.

The other half of this coin I've always felt would be great is more randomization. Instead of mob Q with item R loading in the general area of X by Y, have random tables. So it would be a range of mobs with a range of items in that X by Y area. Even if the difference was simple like a modified sdesc, it would help. This could be done with objects, too, like fruits, herbs, plants, etc.

A lot of work potentially, but combined with mo betta MobProgs would be awesome for so many reasons.