Customized SKills...

[Yokunama]

Stealth | Combat | Magic | Special

If I choose 'special', do I get a coded mudsex skill?

[Anonymous]

So, a stupid question, then...

What is it that you are looking for that you can't do with the existent guild/subguild system?

What, exactly, is it that you are trying to make that you can't?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am not trying to make anything. I'm ok with the current skillsets, to a point. I just like the in-depth customization provided by a points system. Is Armageddon broken? No. But neither is the new stat change, and yet it's going in. Classes are defining.

For instance, what about an assassin who uses swords instead of daggers? Need Imm help. What about the Archer thief, who actually knows well how to use a bow but has always lived in the city and so knows city shit and not wilderness shit....What about the warrior/guard? Guard sucks with no listen. And so on and so forth....

These things can all happen with Staff interaction, so no, it's not impossible, and no I don't think Armageddon is broken.

More people support the idea now than when it was brought up several years ago. That's the idea, I guess.

Sooner or later, I think Armageddon will switch over to a skill-selection rather than classes, and when it goes in, it will rock, and you will all grumble and complain and whine about it, but you'll get used to it. And yes, it will be over Sanvean's dead body and Morg's grey hairs, and so on, but it will.

Who said, two years ago, that we'd ever see even the inkling of stat ordering or choosing?

Thanks for your thoughts in this thread. I'll flesh it out better next time, maybe, next year.

And now, for another long post about the other idea I have in my head ... combat styles ... oooo.

[Anonymous]

Sooner or later, I have no doubt that Armageddon will cave in to enough special player requests that it will look exactly like Harshlands, but with more code.

However, I don't necessarily agree.

I don't see why something like this warrants attention if you are capable of specilizing your characters with special apps or augmenting the already standard guild sets with subguild options.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd be happier with different combos of subguilds myself.

[/shameless plug for more subguilds]

[Wykydtronn]

For those complaining about "carbon copy characters"

If my warrior choses sub-guild Guard... um How does it make my character stat/skill wise different from all the other warrior/guards?

I'm sorry I just thought that arguement was silly, when a class based system forces people to be a carbon copy.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd be fine with picking a main guild, then using the system for which this thread is about.

That would solve branching, give randomness, make me happy, all of that.

Instead of having 144 possible combinations for the main, non magicking guilds, we could have...A lot.

Editted to add: I think that would be awesome. My thought gears are turning. I didn't know they could.

[Nao]

For those complaining about "carbon copy characters"

If my warrior choses sub-guild Guard... um How does it make my character stat/skill wise different from all the other warrior/guards?

I'm sorry I just thought that arguement was silly, when a class based system forces people to be a carbon copy.

I think what's meant by carbon copy is that -all- characters turn out with similar or the same skill sets, maybe different crafting skills cause you've got a slot to fill. On arm, thought he guild system, thieves and merchants and warriors all have VERY different skill sets, in a system where you can choose your skilsl without any restriction they'd be very similar.

[Wykydtronn]

ahh granted, but with the right point value assigned to each skill, it would all even out.

Everyone reading this forum has at lest got some basic unstanding of computers, and reading/writing skills.  Does that mean we are carbon copies? No, because skills like accounting, construction, soldiering, or any other profession I could think of, take a long time to acquire.  Such could be represented by the cost of taking such a skill/skill set.

With the right point value on the right skills, I doubt this would have any effect but then again.  They may just turn out like their respective classes anyways, which makes this system a whole lot of effort for nothing.

But I've not even scratched the surface of all the skills and given that I never played a merchant before, I'm not sure how all the crafting skills work.

[FightClub]

Good idea.  And yeah I see a lot of people complaining about carbon copies, every class branches the same stuff regardless of who you are.  Those are carbon copies, having a high degree of what a character can select as their own is called *gasp * origional, and more realistic as some of you beat on relentlessly, realism this realism that.  Yeah when I was born I picked basketweaver as my class IRL.  Get a lot of complains about twinks, twinks are everywhere you go people, might as well face it, and quit making it the argueable point of every discussion you don't like.  People twink everything given a chance.  So yeah if you want customization, origionality, more character debth and involvement, this would be a positive step forward.  But I would never expect to see it implemented, I mean shit, we still don't even have ASNI optional.

[SpyGuy]

Good idea.  And yeah I see a lot of people complaining about carbon copies, every class branches the same stuff regardless of who you are.  Those are carbon copies...

Very true, those are carbon copies.  But the idea of a class (with subguild/race options to make them more unique, don't forget that) is that it's a somewhat balanced and intentional carbon copy.  The great thing about it is though since the same options are open to everyone the classes can be designed to branch as they increase in power and therefore become more specialized while gaining new skills.  And if the classes aren't balanced then c'est la vie, they were constructed by IMMs to suit a specific type of PC. (Note:  This whole debate doesn't even begin to apply to magickers, consider what I said relevant for the normal classes)

The problem with choosing your own skills is min/maxing.  As of right now we can pick what we can, potentially special app for a different skill, but we can't sit down and go through all the skills we want.  There is no "secret formula" for a badass PC on Arm because we're given classes.  On a MUD where you pick your own skills there is a high temptation to always pick certain skills because they simply are either the best and/or fit your play style.  For arm I can imagine skills like that being listen, scan, a weapon skill and parry which are useful for any PC.

I like that merchants and mages have absolutely no weapon skills.  I like that warriors start off dominating other classes in combat and I'm even beginning to warm up to the idea of warriors having very little use outside of combat.  I like that scan is a relatively rare skill.  To overhaul the class system is a BIG project, it would probably require overhauling every skill too to try to balance it out.  Too much work when better things could be done.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd really love a combination of the two.

Where we got rid of the subguilds and went with main guilds. This way, we wouldn't have to worry about how things branch, and we wouldn't have to worry about the merchant's with weapons kills, or the magicker/warriors.

We would have our main, balanced guilds and we would have lists of skills we learned before we started playing our Pc. We wouldn't have to worry about them branching and there would be an infinite number of subguilds.

I would love that system, love it a lot.

[Folker]

I have to say, I do not understand many arguments about this idea.

Some say, what if a merchant guild takes a sword skill, something that a merchant wouldnt have ever really done? Too much possible twinkage.

I find that whole argument is flawed, because with a proposed system there 'would' be no merchants. There would be no warriors, no thieves, no rangers

There would be people, who based on their background and what they want their characters to be, pick the skills that go along the concepts within their heads. If they want to be merchants, they'll pick merchant skills, if they want to be something else ... they'll pick something else.

The whole concept about magicker/mindbender and the whole karma thing makes this system complicated. Aswell as mini traits that arent skill related, such as being able to quit in a desert, and so on. Karma can unlock more and more skills with Karma.

[jhunter]

If I wanted to play SOI I'd go play SOI. It's the differences between the two that I like better about Arm.

Leave it alone.

[jcarter]

What I would prefer to see is something more along the lines of being able to tweak current classes and choose from a small number of skills to add to the guild's main skills

I.e. Ranger-
Pick one of the following:
1)Disarm
2)Tanning
3)Guard

Pick one more of the following
1)Extra high climb
2)Extra high archery
3)Extra high dual wield

Nothing major, but enough to give your character a certain focus/direction that makes it a bit more different than other classes.

[Synthesis]

Adding to a long list of proposals...

I'd like to see main guilds remain the same, but all subguilds removed.

Instead, all current subguild skills would be pooled together and assigned point values.  At character creation, you would have a certain number of points, and you could choose freely among all the possible subguild skills.

This would let you customize much better than the current subguild system, but would also avoid the twinkery problems.  Subguild skills would remain the same as they currently are: unbranchable (unless your main guild has the skill anyway) and capped low (again, unless your main guild receives the skill).  With the point system, you'd be able to choose 3-6 of them, depending on their staff-determined values, and you'd be on your merry way.

[jhunter]

Adding to a long list of proposals...

I'd like to see main guilds remain the same, but all subguilds removed.

Instead, all current subguild skills would be pooled together and assigned point values.  At character creation, you would have a certain number of points, and you could choose freely among all the possible subguild skills.

This would let you customize much better than the current subguild system, but would also avoid the twinkery problems.  Subguild skills would remain the same as they currently are: unbranchable (unless your main guild has the skill anyway) and capped low (again, unless your main guild receives the skill).  With the point system, you'd be able to choose 3-6 of them, depending on their staff-determined values, and you'd be on your merry way.

I think this would be alright. There aren't any twinky or unbalancing combinations with those skills anyway. Would be cool to round out a pc with more customization without people making disarming rangers and swordsmaster merchants.

The balance of the guild system with a bit more of free creation where the subguild skills are concerned.

[Maybe42or54]

.... *is speechless* Moving on.
I would simply die, if I could have search, club_making, armor repair, and hunt.

[Agent_137]

NONONONONO AND NO

NO TF2 NO TFC:S NONONONOONO

NONONONONONON
NONONONONONONONO


NONONONO





-----> NO <------

[Intrepid]

I like the idea of customizable subguilds with certain classes barred from
certain skills without imm intervention.

I would like to stick with the main classes, however.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why does every change make the game 'more like SOI'?

I think this is a somewhat baseless argument. This system might not be the key ... there may never be a key to offering truly customizable classes without worrying about that 'twink' factor, but instead of just complaining about 'SoI' and how we seem to be 'changing the game', why not just say no or offer a better idea?

The more customization available, the better. If it roves into a bad area, then it's no good, but not everything new does that.

[jhunter]

Why does every change make the game 'more like SOI'?

I think this is a somewhat baseless argument. This system might not be the key ... there may never be a key to offering truly customizable classes without worrying about that 'twink' factor, but instead of just complaining about 'SoI' and how we seem to be 'changing the game', why not just say no or offer a better idea?

The more customization available, the better. If it roves into a bad area, then it's no good, but not everything new does that.

Because this particular suggestion is the way that SOI does it. And it's one of the reasons I don't play that game and why I play Arm.

I'm going to mention it every time someone proposes a change to the way something is done in SOI. You know why? Because the way Arm currently does them is my personal preference. The way SOI does them -isn't-. If all those differences were changed. I will lose the -only- mud I enjoy playing.

Arm has -everything- I want as far as most mechanics the way it -is-.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And yet, if there is an option to completely by-pass the new system, as there is in the stat ordering system and would be most likely in any skill selection change, why would it matter to you? How in the name of Tektolnes would it affect you?

I understand the twink arguments, because nobody, including me, wants this game to degenerate into a RPI H&S. But I sometimes think that some of you worry so much about twinks that the potential benefits of any change are out-weighed by the miniscule chance of rampant twinkism.

If you like the old way, and you have the ability to use the old system, then that should solve your opposition to the idea were it to be implemented in a fashion that really did not give it an edge on the current classes.

[jhunter]

And yet, if there is an option to completely by-pass the new system, as there is in the stat ordering system and would be most likely in any skill selection change, why would it matter to you? How in the name of Tektolnes would it affect you?

I understand the twink arguments, because nobody, including me, wants this game to degenerate into a RPI H&S. But I sometimes think that some of you worry so much about twinks that the potential benefits of any change are out-weighed by the miniscule chance of rampant twinkism.

If you like the old way, and you have the ability to use the old system, then that should solve your opposition to the idea were it to be implemented in a fashion that really did not give it an edge on the current classes.

It does affect me because it changes the playing environment for me. I have to -deal- with all the other stat-ordering, min-maxing, skill optimizing twinks. It's no longer a level playing field unless I do the same. And it really....really....sucks ass...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...waita minute. By arguing that you have to deal with stat-maxxers, you are achknowledging your concern with skills.

So, you're telling me that because a PC wanted to create a sword-packing warrior who could hide and sneak in the city, but lost parry and kick, it unevens the playing field for you, who retains parry and kick but can't sneak and hide?

Perhaps if skills could be chosen from an intelligent system, so that while a character just choosing Hide for the first time paid 5 points for it, it could cost that Warrior 10 pts.

You think that irons it out more for you?

I'm not really battling you view-point. I'm trying to get the why I hate out of you, not just the I hate. I feel like while your concerns are valid, your hateit, don't wan't it, no matter what attitude might not be best for optimization of such a system.

Also, I don't give a fuck about SoI. I wanted stats and skill selection before I even heard of SoI. So, ya see, this isn't a push to SoIalize Armageddon. It's a push to perfect our character creation options.