Customized SKills...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Over the course of the years, selectable skills have come up far more than once. It has always been viewed as too twinkable and so on.

I may have a solution.

Classes, obviously, are groups of skills that make one great whole. While the actual class versus another class may not even out, what it does do is perform at the highest level in it's selected occupations.

Skills of certian kinds, particularly weapon skills, are much sought after, but are only available to certian classes. Furthermore, it is apparent that without some serious rethinking, the Immortals are typically more than happy to leave it that way.

Which, of course, brings me into the fray.

If skills were ordered in point value instead of simply as skills, and each new character were given a set number of points to use, I think the skill twinkage could be avoided.

For instance ....

Bob has 10 points to use in character creation. He looks the list of skills over and picks a few. Here's the list he sees.

Code Select Expand


Sword 3
Dagger 2
Hammer 3
Axe 3
Clothesmaking 2
Basketweaving 1
Hide 4
City Sneak 4
Backstab 5
Steal 3
Shield 1
Scan 3
Hunt 2
Listen 3

From this list, he can pick dagger, backstab, and steal for his little thief, or, Hammer, Shield, and Sword with Shield for his warrior, or, Clothesmaking, Basketweaving, Listen, Dagger, and Hunt.

He'll use all of his points in any of those senarios, yet he'll be unable to really twink it out by selecting all the 'right' skills.

Hmmm?

[bloodfromstone]

I would love customizable skill sets. There's several dozen reasons why it would be a wonderful change for the game. It would take serious balancing and testing, and some combos would be better than others (But aren't some guild/subguild combos better all the same?), but I think it would be a massive, work-heavy change that would be worth it.

[Nao]

No way. Please.

This would lead to the SOI effect with every merchant that has never seen a sword before having a weapon skill - cause it's useful to have, right..?

The guild system we have right now is restrictive, but also quite nice in another way - it keeps everyone from having the same set of skills and different classes have different caps on how high a skill can go I'd like to keep it that way.
Right now even a fresh 0-day warrior can beat most people around him to pulp, and that's how it should be IMHO. I'm very happy with the way things are at the moment - you'd have to make this way too flexible.

This might work if you still make people select a class at character creation and only allow them to set points to certain skills - a tuluki merchant would put more on woodcrafting than a southern merchant and a northern ranger a little more points in archery and stuff like poisoning while a southern one would go for weaponskills and figthing ability - but they'd still be merchants or rangers or whatever.. That would be kind of cool, actually.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This would lead to the SOI effect with every merchant that has never seen a sword before having a weapon skill - cause it's useful to have, right..?

Actually, that's precisely what I am tryin gto avoid. You'll note that on SoI, there is no point value assigned skills, so yes, they can collect awesome sets of powers. But on a system where getting that one skill could cost you 4-6 points, I think your options are limited,
[/c
This might work if you still make people select a class at character creation and only allow them to set points to certain skills - a tuluki merchant would put more on woodcrafting than a southern merchant and a northern ranger a little more points in archery and stuff like poisoning while a southern one would go for weaponskills and figthing ability - but they'd still be merchants or rangers or whatever.. That would be kind of cool, actually.[/quote]

That's not bad.

[Nao]

This would lead to the SOI effect with every merchant that has never seen a sword before having a weapon skill - cause it's useful to have, right..?

Actually, that's precisely what I am tryin gto avoid. You'll note that on SoI, there is no point value assigned skills, so yes, they can collect awesome sets of powers. But on a system where getting that one skill could cost you 4-6 points, I think your options are limited,

Hmm, I misunderstood you there, I thought you could assign a number of points to a certain skill to set how good you're at it right from the start... The problem I see with that is that you could easily buy a few expensive skills and skip everything else.
They'd just not have as many skills as your average ranger that has a bunch of skills that don't seem too useful, but get a weapon skill, parry, desert navigation, backstab and maybe another skill they want right from the start, if they don't choose anything else. You'd have to hand out a whole bunch of points to allow people to choose a skillset that fits what they currently get by choosing a class and a subclass.

So I still like my idea better...

[Maybe42or54]

The more I think about it.. the less I don't understand about it.

Would there be a main skills selection list and a subguild selecton list?

[UnderSeven]

This sort of thing could work, but I'm still against it.  In a lot of ways we have customized skills in just the fact that we have guilds and sub guilds.  I might be in favor of more costumization - but we don't have nearly enough skills to make that worth while I think.  Personally I would like to avoid being like SOI every way possible.  A lot of characters there do end up carbon copies of one another and I think the classes we have are really like talking about character specialization.

So for something like this to be implemented it would have to be really really well done.

[spawnloser]

How would you branch skills?  Well, I'd wager it'd have to work off of the skills themselves...you pick these skills, and from those skiklls branch these skills, period...doesn't matter who you are.

Magickers would suddenly be REALLY weird.  How would you make it so that sorcerers branched the spells they do instead of the spells an elementalist has?

Psionicists, if they do branch from contact and barrier, suddenly wouldn't be able to, because EVERYONE would branch from those skills too if they did.

[Anonymous]

I'd have to say I'm against this.

The day a crafter merchant doesn't need to hire a hunter to go get shit for him... or that a warrior can quit in the wilderness and unerringly navigate a sandstorm... or that a -good- thief can psionically attack someone... or that a psionicist can cast fireball...

I just don't like the idea, there.  Point weighting or no, this sounds like a great way to imbalance everything.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We actually have quite a few skills, and if we kept the point pool low enough, nobody would turn up a carbon copy of anyone else. You also have to remember that despite the 'perfect' combo, most folks here see a set of skills they need for -their- concept, and that isn't always that 'perfect' combo.

A Merchant, under my system, could be a merchant just like he is now, but, he would have to sacrifice some of his crafting skills or listening skills or something to get anything at all like a weapon skill or something else.

A warrior could actually be a warrior/ranger, but he would have to give up some of that Warrior awesomeness. Maybe he could sneak around town, or in the desert, or maybe he could hide, but no parry, or maybe not all of those weapon skills. The point is, if skills are not given by point on point basis but rather by their actual staff-preceived value, there will be little min-maxxing you can actually do.

What I prpose is that we work out the system here, in this thread, until it is something that most of us agree on. Maybe the Immortals could chime in from time to time as well, giving input on something they do or don't like.

If ya'll are willing, let's work out skills' values, only mundane skills accessable from jump to the classes. Then let's decide on a pool of points that gives both room to play and limits min-maxxing. Let's see if we can't come up with something decent, because I think this system has merit.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd say that I didn't think about Magickers or Mindbenders. I'm not sure we could put those in right.

As far as branching goes, while the discovery of a skill is sorta cool, I'd say toss those into the pot.

[Maybe42or54]

You would probably have to seperate them

What would you like to be?
Magickal, or normal?

[Anonymous]

I just don't think you can do this without breaking the game.

Sorry, but I don't.

A halfling void cleric psionicist?
A half-giant void cleric warrior?
A desert elf warrior burglar (which fixes the assassin nerf nicely)?
A thief who can quit in the desert?
A half-elf-who-looks-human merchant hunter?
A mul sorceror who can quit in the desert?

I mean, these are only one or two skills, here in most cases, and my twinkish little brain is good at coming up with ways to break things - but not nearly as good as some people who play, I'm sure.

[UnderSeven]

I totally agree with Davien.  

Ugh, I can't believe I just said that.

Okay.

Magick aside, lets assume magick had it's own skill selection.  So what if it did cost skill points, you'd see people considering what skills are worth more, like maybe rangers saying eh, I ride what do I need wilderness sneak hide for, I'll just trade them in for something really expensive and be the ranger that backstab.  

Picking and chosing skills is not something I'm terribly in favor with.  What might be neater is if we had branch paths for any given class that taking one closed the door to another.  But for even something like that we'd need tons more.

[Ava]

One thing I absolutely love about this game is the number of people (merchants) around town who are pretty much totally incapable of defending themselves, and know it.

Whatever we (you...staffers...) do, let's not lose that aspect of the game.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with Davien.  

Ugh, I can't believe I just said that.

lol.  I will consider my goal to be known as that board asshole that everyone loves to hate to be a success, then.

Picking and chosing skills is not something I'm terribly in favor with.  What might be neater is if we had branch paths for any given class that taking one closed the door to another.  But for even something like that we'd need tons more.

I think you'll find that, at significant branch levels, this does work within limits.  The big hot buttons seem to be:

backstab
the ability to quit in the wilderness
hiding/sneaking
offense/defense at highest levels.

And if you nerfed everything, you'd basically be going to something like "choose three subguilds instead of one guild and one subguild"

[Yokunama]

I just don't think you can do this without breaking the game.

Sorry, but I don't.

A halfling void cleric psionicist?
A half-giant void cleric warrior?
A desert elf warrior burglar (which fixes the assassin nerf nicely)?
A thief who can quit in the desert?
A half-elf-who-looks-human merchant hunter?
A mul sorceror who can quit in the desert?

I mean, these are only one or two skills, here in most cases, and my twinkish little brain is good at coming up with ways to break things - but not nearly as good as some people who play, I'm sure.

Where is the half-giant thief assassin? :wink:

[Anonymous]

Where is the half-giant thief assassin? :wink:

That's a mantis-only skillset choice.

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't want it to replace guilds.

I can see it replacing subguilds without catastrophe.  Subguilds are generally 2-4 skills added to your guild skill-set that give you a little customization, this method could do that but with a little more control over which 2-4 skills you get.

Personally I am absurdly fond of all the nosy skills: climb, hunt, listen, peek, scan, skinning, search, value, and watch.  They aren't all classed as perception skills, but they are skills that can be used for being nosy or for satisfying curiosity, and it is pretty difficult to get them all.  They aren't all necessarily useful, but I like them.  For example I like Value just because I like to know how much stuff weighs, if I have a character without value I end up blowing money taking stuff to be weighed at a scale -- I don't really need to know, I'm just curious about it.  You'll hardly ever find anything with Search, but it is keen to be able to look.  I don't use Hunt for hunting much, but I do like to know who has been around here lately.  I don't want to steal anything, I just like to Peek to see what people have.  I'd like it if there were ways I could add a couple of those skills to a class that didn't have them.




Angela Christine

[Marauder Moe]

Definitely no.

There've been threads about this before.

[jhunter]

No. Don't care for these sort of systems. I like Arm's current Guild system.

[valakas]

I looked at this and was thinking... no ,but with a few changes maybe.

First off pick you guild... lets say warrior.
Then subguild... thug.

A list of all the skills that YOU could have pops up.
The list is divided into sections as it is alreaddy like now. If you don't know what the skill sections are go play the game and type skills they are all catagorized. I don't rember what the catagorys are all called so ill use my own names. Also the skills the subguilds get give you the skill and they automaticly have 1 point in them unless the subguild is a very focused one like... maybe the crafting ones. Guilds get skill points based off what they should be. So heres what a warrior might get.

15 Combat Skill Points
0 Merchant Skill Points
1 Stealth Skill Point
Etc. ...


As for branching and gaining more points you would send logs and maybe get a skill point in somthing if you charactor shows good RP about it. Branching would be more like sending a log in with your warrior picking up on bows and practicing with them a lot to gain the skill with 1 point starting in it or maybe 2. Also so there is no half-giants with huges clubs sap and then psionics to also blast stun down the skills you can get are all based off guild and subguild like they are now.

I don't care if you don't like it this is just how I would go about if there was a point system.

[valakas]

I looked at this and was thinking... no ,but with a few changes maybe.

First off pick you guild... lets say warrior.
Then subguild... thug.

A list of all the skills that YOU could have pops up.
The list is divided into sections as it is alreaddy like now. If you don't know what the skill sections are go play the game and type skills they are all catagorized. I don't rember what the catagorys are all called so ill use my own names. Also the skills the subguilds get give you the skill and they automaticly have 1 point in them unless the subguild is a very focused one like... maybe the crafting ones. Guilds get skill points based off what they should be. So heres what a warrior might get.

15 Combat Skill Points
0 Merchant Skill Points
1 Stealth Skill Point
Etc. ...


As for branching and gaining more points you would send logs and maybe get a skill point in somthing if you charactor shows good RP about it. Branching would be more like sending a log in with your warrior picking up on bows and practicing with them a lot to gain the skill with 1 point starting in it or maybe 2. Also so there is no half-giants with huges clubs sap and then psionics to also blast stun down the skills you can get are all based off guild and subguild like they are now.

I don't care if you don't like it this is just how I would go about if there was a point system.

[spawnloser]

Too much work for the staff, I say, valakas.  I'd prefer automated branching in all forms.  We use code here, as we're playing a MUD not a MUSH.

[RunningMountain]

When I was working on my mud my idea was class-based but far more broader then just several classes it went something like this at character creation.

Welcome to Null mud, choose your primary guild below.

Stealth | Combat | Magic | Special

From here you have to choose what you want your character to specialize in.
So if they choose combat.

You have chosen Combat, now select your primary class.

Fighter | Brute | Ranger | Archer | Swordsman | Axeman | Spearman |
Soldier | Mercenary

Now you're thinking, wait a minute, so how do the skills get set and all that? Well it wasn't fully coded but the concept was there. Fighter was your basic fighter, he wasn't nothing special, he got most combat skills but set at an average cap. Brute was a raging type class, they got choppers, bash, kick, etc. So and so forth, each class had it's own separate types of specializations, for example.

The swordsman started with only slashing, disarm, and a few other skills. But his cap was the highest in the game with such skills, therefore if you pick this class it's restrictive (in that you HAVE to use a sword) but also it's balanced. Same goes axeman and spearman.

Or you could always just pick the normal fighter class which gives you most all combat skills but at an average number cap. A max fighter will never beat a max swordsman in straight up melee if the swordsman has a sword, but the fighter might have archery, kick, bash, throw. Etc. Whereas the swordsman has to be in melee to be effective. There was also going to be a secondary class selection much like subguilds on armageddon. Except the secondary classes were mainly crafting skills.

And the Stealth and Magic classes were much the same, the exception being that Magical classes were based around elements like Silt, Sand, Water. Etc. And no one was much better then the other except in its spells.

-RM