Thief subguild but no peek?

[Grumpy Thief]

Erm.. is there any reason why the thief subguild doesn't have and cannot learn the peek skill? Steal is utterly useless without peek, you would only be able to steal something from someone if you actually witness them picking up the object up, removing it, or taking it out of a container, all of which are situations where I wouldn't steal an item from a player, since they would realistically be holding the item or otherwise paying attention to it. Steal without the peek skill just doesn't make sense to me.

[Morgenes]

Because it's not the pickpocket guild.  If you want that ability, choose that guild instead.  A subguild 'Thief' has to be smart and aware, just like you mentioned.  (That is not to say that a Pickpocket should be equally smart and aware of his surroundings).

[Larrath]

So why have that Subguild at all?  It's like giving the Bash or Disarm skill but no combat abilities.
Pickpockets can get very good with their Peek and Steal skills.  I don't see why a Subguild Thief with low capped steal and low capped peek would pose a balance issue.  Help our magicker elves steal!

[jhunter]

So why have that Subguild at all?  It's like giving the Bash or Disarm skill but no combat abilities.
Pickpockets can get very good with their Peek and Steal skills.  I don't see why a Subguild Thief with low capped steal and low capped peek would pose a balance issue.  Help our magicker elves steal!

Yeah, it really makes no sense to have a thief subguild that doesn't have access to at least a lower-capped peek skill.

[Morgenes]

We could pull the subguild if that's how you really feel.

Seriously, it's called game balance.  If the theif subguild had the same abilities as a pickpocket, there'd be no reason to choose the pickpocket guild.  If you want to be a master pickpocket with all the abilities that entails, choose the guild.  Subguilds are intended to suplement your guild, not be guilds themselves.  That's why they're SUB guilds.

[Raesanos]

The peek skill definitely isn't necessary to using the other thief subguild skills effectively.  I've seen thief subguild characters do extremely well, as well as played one.

[LauraMars]

Peek is rarely necessary if you can just keep your eyes open and be an observant mofo.

Hey look, that guy just opened his backpack and took out the keys to his posh apartment/steel dagger/kank ticket.  Time to steal!  (which is why I love subguilds with sleight of hand.  Palm and slip, baby.  Palm and slip.)

[Vesperas]

I think the original poster may be sort of referencing opportunities here.  Usually, I will see someone take something out of a pack or whatever, do what they intend to do with it, and then put it back and close their pack.  

Of course, you COULD steal those cool keys while they are interacting with them.  But that's just sort of lame.  I don't know how much I would be OOCly pissed if I went to emote something with my object that I would virtually be man-handling and eye-balling and got back the message: You don't see that.

If it's in my virtual pockets, great.  Go for it.  But I would honestly consider someone nipping that cool dagger I'm marvelling at right out of my inventory in mid-emote to be a twink, and who wants to be labeled that?

There are probably some great-played sub-guild thieves out there, but they are only going to get that way through extreme patience (not that that's a bad thing...)  I do understand the con-POV here:  I think that if you intend to live off stealing, or having a PC who pickpocketed for most of their life, you SHOULD pick the pickpocket guild, but I wanted to sympathize with what I think the original poster was trying to say.

[Larrath]

Seriously, it's called game balance.  If the theif subguild had the same abilities as a pickpocket, there'd be no reason to choose the pickpocket guild.  If you want to be a master pickpocket with all the abilities that entails, choose the guild.

I'm against removing this subguild, however I do believe that in its current form, it is difficult to play a non-professional thief.  A subguild thief has to rely on OOC guesswork in order to steal anything unless someone happens to be obvious about what they have in their inventory (without holding it so stealing could be realistic), or if they walk around without a cloak.
A main-guild Pickpocket will eventually become some godlike thief that can steal steel longswords from well-guarded people without worrying that they might mess up - in my opinion, the Thief subguild should be for those desperate thieves, such as beggars or prostitutes, who simply reach down and snatch the coins.

Failing 'peek' can have serious concequences in game, and a low enough cap could give a 50/50 chance of moderate success against bad failure, meaning that those subguild Thieves will never get to be as relaxed about their stealing as a Pickpocket could.
I'm sure that few people will object to have the Steal cap lowered a little in order to have Peek added in, but that's my own opinion.

I am considering game balance here, and I don't really see how a very low cap on Peek would make the Thief subguild overpowered (especially in comparison to the Bard or Tailor subguilds).


I also have another idea though, if the Peek suggestion is a complete no-go.  Perhaps it could be made possible to try and steal anything from a character.  That is:

Code Select Expand


> steal any svelte
You begin approaching your target... [the dark, svelte woman]
.
.
.
You snatch a bone kirisigi dagger!  Success!


In other words, the PC won't be able to choose what they're trying to steal and would simply take anything they managed to get a grip on.  It might add a shred of a bonus to the theft since it essentially means going for whatever is easiest.
The random poll will use everything on the target that can be stolen with relative ease - inventory, items on belt or inside open containers.

Just my two 'sids.  I definitely don't think completely removing the Thief subguild would help the game.

[jhunter]

I am considering game balance here, and I don't really see how a very low cap on Peek would make the Thief subguild overpowered (especially in comparison to the Bard or Tailor subguilds).

I agree completely with this.

[mansa]

I disagree with it.  You don't require it to be a thief.

And you don't need OOC guesswork.  The best thieves right now stalk their prey.  That's the point of the subclass.  To get people to learn how to stalk their prey.

[Halaster]

Maybe part of the misunderstanding is the definition of what a subguild is.  A subguild is really just meant to be a representation of a few random skills you picked up from your background to sort of round out a character.  It's not meant to be your primary means of survival, although if you're able to pull it off then that's great.

I'm with Raesanos and Morgenes in that it is most definitely possible to steal without peek.  And if you really want to be able to do both, then play a guild that can.  Peek is meant to make steal better, among other things.  The "professional" thieves have peek.  The "amateurs" don't.  The thief subguild is the amateur.  The pick-pocket guild is the professional.

[Twilight]

To perhaps round out what Halaster said, the thief sub-guild gives the ability to steal opportunistically.  The pickpocket guild gives the ability to steal with intent.  Amateurs steal as the opportunity arises.  They see that watch left on the table and smoothly swipe it.  Professionals steal with intent.  They swipe the watch off your hand as you are walking down the street.

The steal command, by itself, gives the ability to steal when the opportunity arises.  The steal command and peek command together gives the ability to steal with intent.

The more observant you are of what is going on, the more your opportunistic thief is going to succeed.  That person just paid for their drink, without dipping into a bag/cloak/pack for coins.  Maybe I should steal coins from the idiot?  That person is taking things out of a bag, maybe later I should remember to try to steal her bag?  This moron Kadius agent is taking me through a storeroom filled with stuff, maybe I can manage to snag a thing or two without them seeing.

[jmordetsky]

Erm.. is there any reason why the thief subguild doesn't have and cannot learn the peek skill? Steal is utterly useless without peek, you would only be able to steal something from someone if you actually witness them picking up the object up, removing it, or taking it out of a container, all of which are situations where I wouldn't steal an item from a player, since they would realistically be holding the item or otherwise paying attention to it. Steal without the peek skill just doesn't make sense to me.

Look at it this way, a twinked out Warrior who can also hide and sneak well is *very* powerful. A twinked out warrior who can hide, sneak and make a ton of money stealing stuff is just completely out of balance. It wouldn't be fair.

I look at steal as a nice addition. There's lots of a stuff you can nick that doesn't require peek.

[jhunter]

To perhaps round out what Halaster said, the thief sub-guild gives the ability to steal opportunistically.  The pickpocket guild gives the ability to steal with intent.  Amateurs steal as the opportunity arises.  They see that watch left on the table and smoothly swipe it.  Professionals steal with intent.  They swipe the watch off your hand as you are walking down the street.

The steal command, by itself, gives the ability to steal when the opportunity arises.  The steal command and peek command together gives the ability to steal with intent.

The more observant you are of what is going on, the more your opportunistic thief is going to succeed.  That person just paid for their drink, without dipping into a bag/cloak/pack for coins.  Maybe I should steal coins from the idiot?  That person is taking things out of a bag, maybe later I should remember to try to steal her bag?  This moron Kadius agent is taking me through a storeroom filled with stuff, maybe I can manage to snag a thing or two without them seeing.

Okay, I see what you mean. You've convinced me. Now it makes sense that it is the way it is when you put it this way.

[FightClub]

Maybe part of the misunderstanding is the definition of what a subguild is.  A subguild is really just meant to be a representation of a few random skills you picked up from your background to sort of round out a character.  It's not meant to be your primary means of survival, although if you're able to pull it off then that's great.

I'm with Raesanos and Morgenes in that it is most definitely possible to steal without peek.  And if you really want to be able to do both, then play a guild that can.  Peek is meant to make steal better, among other things.  The "professional" thieves have peek.  The "amateurs" don't.  The thief subguild is the amateur.  The pick-pocket guild is the professional.

Maybe we should be able to select these few random skills one-by-one instead of taking sub-guilds?
*twitchy eye*

[bloodfromstone]

A steal anything command would be pretty rad. I can see poor, petty thieves feeling up merchants and just grabbing whatever they get their hands on.

[FightClub]

I personally think thieves and pickpockets should be switched.  Thieves in my opinion being more higher classed, and generally more skilled.  Pickpockets seeming more the type of a sub-guild.  A thief would dance around merrily in the shadow, and steal full silt horror plate without making a sound, whereas a pick pocket would finger a pouch and try to grab a few blacks.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I just took a thief subguild recently too.  No peek means I have to stick to PC's to steal from becuase I have no idea which npc's are carrying what. Which means the first time I fail, EVERYONE knows I'm a thief.

It's difficult  :roll:

And that's even without all the difficulties main guild thieves face in game anyways.

And the new 'watch' command makes things even worse.    :x

[Raesanos]

No peek means I have to stick to PC's to steal from becuase I have no idea which npc's are carrying what.

Not true at all.  You can steal worn objects and objects that are in an NPC's inventory that you are aware of through other means than peek.

[Folker]

I mentioned the possibility in another thread. Concerning te "steal any victim" idea. You could possibly do a "steal 1. victim" and supposedly, it'll take whatever is first in the victim's inventory. Problem with it, is that if he has nothing in inventory, you'd end up going for his worn objects, which might prove to be a ... lethal mistake But still, an option worth being aware of

[mansa]

I mentioned the possibility in another thread. Concerning te "steal any victim" idea. You could possibly do a "steal 1. victim" and supposedly, it'll take whatever is first in the victim's inventory. Problem with it, is that if he has nothing in inventory, you'd end up going for his worn objects, which might prove to be a ... lethal mistake :) But still, an option worth being aware of

Folker, read that: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=189898#189898

[Cenghiz]

I believe educated guesses for thieves would be logical.. Let's say; someone in 'rinth? He has a weapon 99%. Think of it, emote reaching into his cloak towards his belt as you pass by and type 'steal dagger/steal knife/steal sword' etc.. If one does not happen to be there, I believe you have the right to use other keywords for weapons. Of course it's simply my idea and it's been ages that I didn't play a thief.

[Fragmented]

I think people are missing the obviousness of what a person without peek would steal from NPC's. Think harder on it.

[Aldiel]

I kind of like the way it is now.