Stealing a backpack while you are sleeping

[Draedera]

Alright, maybe I am totally stupid but how can someone steal your backpack while you are sleeping and it is ON YOUR BACK!

Wouldnt you feel it? Wouldnt it wake you up and you can see them running away with it?

If this is how this game is played I give up.

[Maybe42or54]

You could Rp cutting the strings to the backpack and then running off with it.

I don't like it though. Most of the time, there isn't any RP added to it. Just "steal pack sleeper"
Which is just crappy.
Especially since it doesn't echo to the room that Mr. Noble walked over and took it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The trouble is that the code is incapable of distinguishing between a light dose and complete and utter incapacitation, and thus it assumes that you are incapacitated.

This is something I hope is addressed soon.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The code is perfectly capapble of distingiushing the two. Complete would be when your stun is at 0 or less, or when you are held. Anything less could be considered light.

[Yang]

I assume you were sleeping with your backpack on? Were you using it as a pillow? Were you sleeping on a floor, on a cot? Are you sleeping somewhere crowded and noisy?

Use 'change ldesc' when you are sleeping to be more specfic to potential thieves what you are doing, otherwise, I personally see absolutely no reason why people sleeping, unguarded and unwatched, in public places, should not be stripped naked or killed, if another PC feels they can and should get away with whatever they want.

Sorry about your loss, but that's a pretty fair take on things.

In the future, if you have a character who can afford it, maybe renting a backroom in a tavern, or renting an apartment somewhere in the ctiy (there are many affordable ones) would serve to protect your goodies better. Good luck.

[Maybe42or54]

Perhaps the code can take into affect if the target is sleeping and or unconcious, how much the object weighs, If it is worn or not, etc.

Then it would echo to the room that Mr. Noble stole it if the object is above XXX weight or if it is worn.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And yes, I hope it's adressed soon as well, to agree with my fellow Helper.

[Draedera]

Stealing someone's pack should cause a person to wake up. And that person doing the stealing should be emoting what they are doing as well. This might have been IC but I think people should be more considerate. It is not like I am a good player. I am still trying to figure things out even though I have been on here a bit.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, I think more appropriately that stealing someone's pack should have the chance to wake you up. There are plenty of real good real life theives that will steal your briefcase while you're awake, there's no reason at all they can't cut your pack's straps and lever it off of you.

In fact, I've seen someone completely undressed and redressed while they slept. The better the thief's skills, the better chance of not waking you.

[mansa]

I tend to agree with Yang on this subject.

If you do not describe yourself, you are subject to the misinterpretation of the thieves involved.

You could be lying flat on the ground with your backpack on your back.  Someone can easily cut the straps and take it off you.

If you described yourself as to be 'curled up with backpack tucked in closely' then it would be unreasonable for a thief to steal that from you, and would give a better argument about the unlikelyness of that move.

[marko]

If you described yourself as to be 'curled up with backpack tucked in closely' then it would be unreasonable for a thief to steal that from you, and would give a better argument about the unlikelyness of that move.

I dunno - that depends how sound a sleeper the person is.  If you are asleep then you are asleep.

Haven't you ever had fun playing with your significant other while they slept?  Games such as - steal their pillow.  Push them over.  See if you can turn them upside down without waking them up?

In other words, when you are asleep your senses aren't exactly at 100%.  Stealing a backpack is perfectly acceptable in my view.  Heck, stelaing someone's pants while they are sleeping is fine too.  I'd just suggest that these actions are emoted out.

[Anonymous]

Emotes seem to echo to the unconscious person reglardless of whether they are able to wake up or not. While I do not disagree with this code, I don't think it should be in the realm of the thief's responsibility to emote 'carefully doing such and such' since 99% of players who can wake up, will wake up.

Remove a sleeping person's ability to see emotes, and fine, emote away while stealing. Otherwise, too bad.

[Draedera]

I have read all of your responses. I think I am the one that was wrong by trying to sleep in that one public place. But that is a string of mistakes on my part. Some of us just arent cut out for this game so best to avoid my next problem and just move on.

Good bye.

[SpyGuy]

I have read all of your responses. I think I am the one that was wrong by trying to sleep in that one public place. But that is a string of mistakes on my part. Some of us just arent cut out for this game so best to avoid my next problem and just move on.

Good bye.

Don't let is discourage you, Arm is harsh.  That said, sleeping in public places is probably a bit more dangerous then it should be.  If Zalanthas were a real environment I strongly doubt thieves are going to see a sleeping person and immediately proceed to strip them naked of all their crappy commoner clothing, though that happs in game.

Suggestions:

If you need to sleep somewhere but aren't a member of a clan go to a more secluded location.  The Gaj dormitory is highly visible, more likely you'll get hit by a klepto in there.  Sleep in an alley, rent an apartment or find somewhere safe and private.

Don't get injured to the point you need sleep to regen.

Join a clan, they can really help when getting started.

Keep trying, you'll get it.  Or just die trying  :twisted:

[Twilight]

Any backpackers out there who've been at Pamplona during running of the bulls will understand just how incredibly easy it is to get your backpack stolen when you are wearing it, sleeping, surrounded by your buddies...and literally hundreds of other people, some awake, some asleep.

Trust me, people get a lot more upset when it happens in RL than when it happens in the game.

I would suggest doing something I see extremely few people do anymore.  Something that used to be (years and years ago) extremely common.  Rent a room at the tavern.  Yes, rent the room at the tavern.  For example, in the Gaj, you would type "rent room"...

[Tamarin]

What you can do to someone while they are passed out:








For full size images, go to: http://j0ram.net/2004_dcon_shaleah/[/u]

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

HAHAHA! Yeh, I remember that. The only disqualifier I can think of for that example is that he was drunk as fuck. But yeh ... that was my fineass pregnant wife up there, in that first pic.

[Cenghiz]

Trousers and shirts? I would view it very very cheezy.. A backpack? Why not? Every thief should be carrying a knife somewhere in the end.
Sorrily the thieves do not emote. But they have a damn good reason for that. 99% the victim wakes up when you emote.
Changing ldesc so that you're holding the backpack? Bah.. Forgive me, but I would view it cheezy, too. RP is not to be used as a shield from coded effects. If a Bynner cannot emote three bynners guarding him from an elf willing to start a brawl in Gaj without imm intervention, someone shouldn't be steal proof by a simple ldesc change.
And about the 'good bye' part.. Was it like 'you didn't find the thief guilty, you don't share the same viewpoint with me so I don't want to play with you any more.'? If that's so... Good bye. If it is 'I just want to play a less harsh game for the time being.', then please come back later when you want to be stolen from, whacked to a pulp and killed - or want to do these to other players. We always do need more players. You may try a 'rinthi pickpocket next time.

[Cale_Knight]

If the thief was stealing from a character in newbie gear who was sleeping in public (what better way is there to scream I'M A NEWBIE?), then the thief is a jackass.

Doesn't mean the code is necessarily wrong, but the thief certainly was.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Cale, I can't completely say that I agree. I could say that if there is another alternative to that action, the veteran player should probably take it. But what if the veteran is starving and hungry? While I like the idea of being marginally nice to new players, to spare them all of the hardships of the game is cheating them.

And let's be honest. If the new player is so discouraged by getting his pack stolen that he quits the game, he probably doesn't have the balls for what's next anyways.

[Cale_Knight]

Bull.

I would never jack an obvious newbie of his starting money any more than I would invite him to a private room and stab him in the eye.

If something like that had happened to me five minutes into the game, I would have said "screw this" and moved on.

Making judgements about who "has the balls" to play this game and who doesn't is the typical elitism towards newbies I see all the time on these forums.

[amoeba]

And let's be honest. If the new player is so discouraged by getting his pack stolen that he quits the game, he probably doesn't have the balls for what's next anyways.

These comments are quite self serving.  If -all- the person sees is actions that do not involve real roleplay that involves him, he may draw the logical conclusion that this place is filled with twinks who's prime motivation is collecting l337 loot.

The problem with stealing a newbie blind, with -no interaction- with them is that the newbie  does not see it from a veteran's perspective.  They do not see the loss as a natural result of thier actions and that it can open up RP opprotunities.  They simply see an experienced player taking advantage of a newbie. If that is the case or not is less importaint than the perception we give the least experienced players.

The person who does not have "balls" in this case if the person who takes the easy way and does not open themselves up to risk by somehow -involving- the newbie in the act.  Waking up to find your pack missing is not involvement.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm not really an hardcore elitist. In fact, I tend to not make judgements at all. The fact that I said probably doesn't might clue you in about that.

However, the fact that the player instantly said that he didn't want to play anymore simply because he had his pack stolen is not a good sign.

Additionally, there is a difference between a veteran new PC and a newbie new PC. As a veteran player, I have slept in the public domitory, in newbie clothes, or close to newbie clothes. I would not have felt like quitting the game if I had been stolen from. In fact, one of the first things that ever happened to me was a theft. I knocked the thief out and was dragged to jail, where I lost not only what stolen from me, but also my weapons.

And I thought that was so cool.

As a player, I have no way of knowing if that is a new player or a new PC. And in all honesty, if I felt that I needed to do it, I would steal from them or kill them or whatever (though i prolly woulda emoted about it) was IC for me to do. And I wouldn't feel guilty.

If there was a way to know that it was a newbie, I'd agree a lot more. Also, I would suggest emoting something in most cases. I guess that I can understand the statement about the player thinking it's a twinkish thing because there is no emoting or no sign that anything happened. But I just don't really agree that newbies should never get jacked or hassled just because they're newbies.

[amoeba]

I guess that I can understand the statement about the player thinking it's a twinkish thing because there is no emoting or no sign that anything happened. But I just don't really agree that newbies should never get jacked or hassled just because they're newbies.

The point is not that newbies should not get jacked or hassled.  If fact they should.  My contention is what kind of experence is it that you give this person.  Just finding stuff missing is a non experence.  I can think of many, many ways to acomplish the same thing in the long run, yet give the victim a more enriching experience.   Involving the victim in what you are doing makes them much more likely to get something back from the experence and is a hell of a lot more fun. It is also riskier.

Taking a sleeping newbie's pack without any involvement may be ok RP, but is it the best you as a player can do? A little creativity goes a long way.  Just because something is totally IC doesn't mean it has to be a simple affair.  Ive killed a mortally wounded character I ran across because it would be out of character not to do so.  But I will tell you it took a RL half-hour to go through the motions.  I don't even know if the person got anything out of it, but it was a hell of a lot more fullfilling and fun to take my time with it.

I would like to see us not only be better RP'ers, but also better story tellers.

[Larrath]

If the thief was stealing from a character in newbie gear who was sleeping in public (what better way is there to scream I'M A NEWBIE?), then the thief is a jackass.

Doesn't mean the code is necessarily wrong, but the thief certainly was.

I couldn't agree more.  New players deserve a grace period to let them understand what this place even is.

I agree with 7DV's statement regarding balls, only I view it differently.  A player with the balls to damage the MUD by turning away a new player for some newbie starting coins shouldn't be playing here.

Goddamnit!  Would you stay in a MUD that forced you to wait over an entire day just to get in and take a peek only to be killed after five minutes?!  Players who aren't are not even fit to be playing here?  Listen to what the hell you're saying - a new player would have to be very stubborn, very experienced, very masochistic or very stupid to come back here after something like that happens.


There needs to be a goddamned rule that says "give some leeway to obvious newbies because we want more players here".

[Morfeus]

I think the problem is that you cannot say who is the obvious newbie. I mean, it is not they have neon sign above their head. And how deep this grace period goes? Sleeping newbies? Newbie coins? Or should we include other newbie-mistakes, such as telling templar "You are not the king, I am not gonna to bow?" (because you know, both things - sleeping on public places and behaviour before templars - is mentioned in docs).

[EvilRoeSlade]

When I was a new player, my first character was killed by a twink militia officer because he wouldn't sheath his weapons.  The reason I didn't was because not only did I not know the command to sheath them, but I also didn't know how to go OOC and explain that I didn't know.  At worst, the soldier should have dragged me off to jail, but she didn't because she was a PKing freak.

But I didn't know that at the time.  My first thoughts were "WOW!  This game really IS harsh!"  Even though I had spent days laboring over my character's description and background and pouring through the documentation.

And to be honest, I think that's basically the kind of new players we need.  At what point is it alright to do mean things to a new player?  Sooner or later, it's going to have to happen (though in most cases it's probably an NPC that does the mean thing).  And when it does, the new player is either going to decide to quit, or decide to continue.  It doesn't really matter when it happens, because it will.  The important thing is what the player decides to do next.  That's all.

[Larrath]

I mean, it is not they have neon sign above their head.

Most of them do, actually.  It's pretty easy to tell when someone is having trouble with the emote command.

And how deep this grace period goes? Sleeping newbies? Newbie coins? Or should we include other newbie-mistakes, such as telling templar "You are not the king, I am not gonna to bow?"

Grace to a newbie means not taking advantage of them being new players (inviting them to 'group' or go kill scrabs and then kill them) and not taking advantage of them making mistakes like going to sleep.
Grace to a newbie does not mean you don't mug or cheat a newbie - it simply means that you let them in on it.  You see a newbie sleeping somewhere?  Wake them up and emote holding a knife to their throats and play out the robbery.
About templars - a templar can subdue;kill a person who spat on him or he can raise his eyebrows, ask the newbie what he thinks he's doing and then throw him into the Arena or show him what it means to piss off a templar and torture them to death.

Lastly - I know some people of you might think "but my PC wouldn't give up 1,000 'sids, it's not IC to let that newbie live!".  I have an answer - how could your PC possibly tell that the cheaply-dressed nobody over there has more money on them than most regular commoners earn in two years of hard work?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with 7DV's statement regarding balls, only I view it differently.  A player with the balls to damage the MUD by turning away a new player for some newbie starting coins shouldn't be playing here.

We could argue and say, "Who knows if the thief was a newbie himself or not?" I'm not going to argue about anything like that. What I will say is that I technically agree with you about turning new players away. I advocate emoting quite strongly. So, does emoting make this not a crime anymore?

Goddamnit!  Would you stay in a MUD that forced you to wait over an entire day just to get in and take a peek only to be killed after five minutes?!  Players who aren't are not even fit to be playing here?

Yeah, I did. I guess I hold folks to too high of expectations, and that's fair to say. My bad.

Listen to what the hell you're saying - a new player would have to be very stubborn, very experienced, very masochistic or very stupid to come back here after something like that happens.

Yes, or gripped by the desperation they suddenly felt. That's pretty much how I felt.

There needs to be a goddamned rule that says "give some leeway to obvious newbies because we want more players here".

I agree to a point. The question is, "How much leeway?" Obviously the example about the soldier who killed the citizen about the weapons drawn was a bad example of leeway. Does the theft of a pack have the same level of harshness to it? I'd say no, myself, but I could be wrong.

I hope folks don't think that I am advocating that we should kill and harass and steal from newbies on whims. That's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that newbies should expect despair, because that is what this game is about. Struggle and despair and desperation in a world with little mercy.

Maybe I'm just wrong, and so I'll give up this point, with that thought.

[jhunter]

There's a point where I will do what's IC even if it is a newbie and there's a point where I will just let them be.

Now robbing an obvious newbie, that is sleeping in a public place of their newbie coins is something I won't do. I just pretend my pc didn't see them.

However, if a newbie is in control over their character and having them behave in such a way that it merits a reaction from my pc, even if it means I end up killing them, then I will. So long as it is IC for my character to do so.
I will put every effort into making it as fun of an experience as possible and will pull out all the tools in my bag of tricks to show how well one can flush out a scene with them. I want to both play my role correctly, and hopefully teach them something and get them into it as well.

[Angela Christine]

I think the sort of "public place" would make a big difference too.  Sleeping in the middle of the road or an abandoned building should be taking a risk.  Sleeping in a public dormitory where dozens of other people are sleeping shouldn't be that much of a risk.  Only a gambler or a newbie sleeps in those dormitories without a spotter, but sleeping in a dormitory should be a normal thing to do.  You do it, someone steals your pants, so you probably don't sleep there again with that character or any other.


When you are asleep the code makes you completely helpless.  You don't need to be a coded thief to steal from a sleeper.  A newbie merchant or newbie ranger could steal your pack, your boots, and even your pants.  Apparently people in Zalanthas are really heavy sleepers.


Angela Christine

[Cegar]

I've had my pants stolen when I've fallen asleep on multiple occasions... and that's normal, non-alcohol induced sleep.

[MorganChaos]

It's not hard at all to do shit to a sleeping person. This guy fell asleep at lunch once, had been asleep for about 10 minutes, and I managed to get full makeup on him before he woke up. He noticed when he woke up and wiped it off cause it was really goopy stuff, but the point is, you could probably manhandle someone out of their backpack, or pants. I'm a big fan of stealing people's pants and dropping them as a warning. If I see them sleeping again I rob them naked.

[Fragmented]

On this topic, I think dormitories should be a newbie-friendly, safe place, irregardless of the changes now in effect. My reasoning is that a dormitory (the ones I've seen in game) describes many, many people bedded down in there. Chances are very, very high that with that many people in there, -someone- is going to be watching you, even if out of boredom. Then comes the question of whether or not they'd say anything.. my feeling is they could go either way. Even in real life that chick was raped, beaten, and murdered too I think, and nobody called the cops. But for newbie friendliness, I think that in dormitories, the answer is yes, someone would say something and that person should become wanted.

I don't really care that it's possible to sleep deep enough IRL to have their pants hauled off. To keep newbies in the game, even if it's just -1- newbie that would get pissed and stop playing, I say make it illegal to steal from a sleeper in a dormitory. I'd rather save that 1 newbie then see a seasoned character gain an extra 800-1000 sid when there are so many other ways to steal/earn it.

[LauraMars]

In some places of the game, there are soldiers and templar npcs standing watch in "sleeping areas" or dormitories.  Perhaps this should be more widespread.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with Fragmented. I've never seen a sleeping dormitory that had only 1 person in it.

[Angela Christine]

Regardless of how safe the dormitories should be (which is debatable) the thing is that the room description makes them look like a good place to sleep.  Since all the newbie has to go by is the room description, it makes sense that they try to sleep there.  

It certainly makes more sense ICly to sleep in a public dormitory than to try the slightly-older-newbie trick of finding an empty building or little-used alley to sleep in -- those places usually are safer but only because they are less frequented by PCs so there is less chance of being spotted by a PC and stripped.  However, when you consider the entire population of the city, sleeping in a public hostel should be safer than sleeping in a gutter.  When I had been playing for a few months (and already been robbed in the dormitory) I had characters sleep off bad wounds at the corner of Wall Road and West Dragon's Path.  :roll:  ICly it is probably a busy corner, but hardly any PCs go there.  Later I came to the conclusion that this was a damned stupid thing to do, and started putting out the 100 coins to rent a tavern room if I needed a secure place for a clanless character to sleep without spotters.  (Spotters aren't foolproof either, I've had my duster and skirt stolen while being guarded by two other PCs.  That was awkward.)

Now I occasionally sleep in a public dormitory for the hell of it.  Sometimes I get robbed, sometimes I don't, but I know the risk.  If I'm just taking a light nap, dozing, etc. I use the rest command instead of the sleep command, to indicate that I am not deeply asleep and ready to have my pants stolen.  Most public dormitories have cots, bedrolls and such ("look tables" to see them) and I figure "resting on a urine stained cot" for a while is enough to keep my character from suffering the effects of sleep deprivation.   --  But a newbie doesn't know all that.  They make the decision to sleep without understanding all the risks.  They may even be trying to sleep for role play reasons rather than coded necessity, for example because they think that their PC should sleep at night like a normal person.  It sucks if they get punished for that.


If public sleeping areas were made thief proof, it should be preventative rather than auto-fail.  I like to think that many of the people who steal pants in public dormitories are also fairly new players, possibly even non-thief classes who see an opportunity to try out the steal code and can't resist.  So I'd prefer code that prevents the steal attempt, or does an "are you sure" type thing.

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
But there are guards watching!
So you are unable to even attempt the theft.

-- or--

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
Are you sure you want to do that?  There are people watching.  (Type "steal now" to go ahead and attempt the theft.)
This would allow you to try to steal, but with a substantial penalty and knowing the risks.

-- not --

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
You quietly approach your target.
The many people sitting around watching point and laugh at you.  
You are now wanted!


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

The trouble with stealing a backpack off a sleeping person isn't doing it so the sleeping person doesn't know it, it's doing it so all the people around you don't notice!

How in the hell are you going rob even the deepest sleeper of his/her garments if their dozing within a tavern dormitory, surrounded by dozens of (virtual) people all in various states of consciousness?

[moab]

You can totally get your pack stolen from your back while awake in RL.  

Thief sneaks up to you in a crowd.  Supports the pack with one hand as you stand there, cuts the straps with a razor sharp blade with the other (the bottom of the straps, near the pack itself.

Now he quick pulls it from your shoulders while you say WTF? and hits a run or disappears into the crowd.  This shit happens.

My brother-in-law was in France with his pack tucked under his feet and fully awake and nearly got it stolen by the guy who was sitting next to him.  The thief used a misdirection, some clever balancing the weight tricks and nearly had him.

Sleeping?  Feh.  Cake.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I kinda like the safe domitory idea.

[Maybe42or54]

Sleeping?  Feh.  Cake.

The real world has enough players. We want some more.