Stealing a backpack while you are sleeping

[Morfeus]

I think the problem is that you cannot say who is the obvious newbie. I mean, it is not they have neon sign above their head. And how deep this grace period goes? Sleeping newbies? Newbie coins? Or should we include other newbie-mistakes, such as telling templar "You are not the king, I am not gonna to bow?" (because you know, both things - sleeping on public places and behaviour before templars - is mentioned in docs).

[EvilRoeSlade]

When I was a new player, my first character was killed by a twink militia officer because he wouldn't sheath his weapons.  The reason I didn't was because not only did I not know the command to sheath them, but I also didn't know how to go OOC and explain that I didn't know.  At worst, the soldier should have dragged me off to jail, but she didn't because she was a PKing freak.

But I didn't know that at the time.  My first thoughts were "WOW!  This game really IS harsh!"  Even though I had spent days laboring over my character's description and background and pouring through the documentation.

And to be honest, I think that's basically the kind of new players we need.  At what point is it alright to do mean things to a new player?  Sooner or later, it's going to have to happen (though in most cases it's probably an NPC that does the mean thing).  And when it does, the new player is either going to decide to quit, or decide to continue.  It doesn't really matter when it happens, because it will.  The important thing is what the player decides to do next.  That's all.

[Larrath]

I mean, it is not they have neon sign above their head.

Most of them do, actually.  It's pretty easy to tell when someone is having trouble with the emote command.

And how deep this grace period goes? Sleeping newbies? Newbie coins? Or should we include other newbie-mistakes, such as telling templar "You are not the king, I am not gonna to bow?"

Grace to a newbie means not taking advantage of them being new players (inviting them to 'group' or go kill scrabs and then kill them) and not taking advantage of them making mistakes like going to sleep.
Grace to a newbie does not mean you don't mug or cheat a newbie - it simply means that you let them in on it.  You see a newbie sleeping somewhere?  Wake them up and emote holding a knife to their throats and play out the robbery.
About templars - a templar can subdue;kill a person who spat on him or he can raise his eyebrows, ask the newbie what he thinks he's doing and then throw him into the Arena or show him what it means to piss off a templar and torture them to death.

Lastly - I know some people of you might think "but my PC wouldn't give up 1,000 'sids, it's not IC to let that newbie live!".  I have an answer - how could your PC possibly tell that the cheaply-dressed nobody over there has more money on them than most regular commoners earn in two years of hard work?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with 7DV's statement regarding balls, only I view it differently.  A player with the balls to damage the MUD by turning away a new player for some newbie starting coins shouldn't be playing here.

We could argue and say, "Who knows if the thief was a newbie himself or not?" I'm not going to argue about anything like that. What I will say is that I technically agree with you about turning new players away. I advocate emoting quite strongly. So, does emoting make this not a crime anymore?

Goddamnit!  Would you stay in a MUD that forced you to wait over an entire day just to get in and take a peek only to be killed after five minutes?!  Players who aren't are not even fit to be playing here?

Yeah, I did. I guess I hold folks to too high of expectations, and that's fair to say. My bad.

Listen to what the hell you're saying - a new player would have to be very stubborn, very experienced, very masochistic or very stupid to come back here after something like that happens.

Yes, or gripped by the desperation they suddenly felt. That's pretty much how I felt.

There needs to be a goddamned rule that says "give some leeway to obvious newbies because we want more players here".

I agree to a point. The question is, "How much leeway?" Obviously the example about the soldier who killed the citizen about the weapons drawn was a bad example of leeway. Does the theft of a pack have the same level of harshness to it? I'd say no, myself, but I could be wrong.

I hope folks don't think that I am advocating that we should kill and harass and steal from newbies on whims. That's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that newbies should expect despair, because that is what this game is about. Struggle and despair and desperation in a world with little mercy.

Maybe I'm just wrong, and so I'll give up this point, with that thought.

[jhunter]

There's a point where I will do what's IC even if it is a newbie and there's a point where I will just let them be.

Now robbing an obvious newbie, that is sleeping in a public place of their newbie coins is something I won't do. I just pretend my pc didn't see them.

However, if a newbie is in control over their character and having them behave in such a way that it merits a reaction from my pc, even if it means I end up killing them, then I will. So long as it is IC for my character to do so.
I will put every effort into making it as fun of an experience as possible and will pull out all the tools in my bag of tricks to show how well one can flush out a scene with them. I want to both play my role correctly, and hopefully teach them something and get them into it as well.

[Angela Christine]

I think the sort of "public place" would make a big difference too.  Sleeping in the middle of the road or an abandoned building should be taking a risk.  Sleeping in a public dormitory where dozens of other people are sleeping shouldn't be that much of a risk.  Only a gambler or a newbie sleeps in those dormitories without a spotter, but sleeping in a dormitory should be a normal thing to do.  You do it, someone steals your pants, so you probably don't sleep there again with that character or any other.


When you are asleep the code makes you completely helpless.  You don't need to be a coded thief to steal from a sleeper.  A newbie merchant or newbie ranger could steal your pack, your boots, and even your pants.  Apparently people in Zalanthas are really heavy sleepers.


Angela Christine

[Cegar]

I've had my pants stolen when I've fallen asleep on multiple occasions... and that's normal, non-alcohol induced sleep.

[MorganChaos]

It's not hard at all to do shit to a sleeping person. This guy fell asleep at lunch once, had been asleep for about 10 minutes, and I managed to get full makeup on him before he woke up. He noticed when he woke up and wiped it off cause it was really goopy stuff, but the point is, you could probably manhandle someone out of their backpack, or pants. I'm a big fan of stealing people's pants and dropping them as a warning. If I see them sleeping again I rob them naked.

[Fragmented]

On this topic, I think dormitories should be a newbie-friendly, safe place, irregardless of the changes now in effect. My reasoning is that a dormitory (the ones I've seen in game) describes many, many people bedded down in there. Chances are very, very high that with that many people in there, -someone- is going to be watching you, even if out of boredom. Then comes the question of whether or not they'd say anything.. my feeling is they could go either way. Even in real life that chick was raped, beaten, and murdered too I think, and nobody called the cops. But for newbie friendliness, I think that in dormitories, the answer is yes, someone would say something and that person should become wanted.

I don't really care that it's possible to sleep deep enough IRL to have their pants hauled off. To keep newbies in the game, even if it's just -1- newbie that would get pissed and stop playing, I say make it illegal to steal from a sleeper in a dormitory. I'd rather save that 1 newbie then see a seasoned character gain an extra 800-1000 sid when there are so many other ways to steal/earn it.

[LauraMars]

In some places of the game, there are soldiers and templar npcs standing watch in "sleeping areas" or dormitories.  Perhaps this should be more widespread.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with Fragmented. I've never seen a sleeping dormitory that had only 1 person in it.

[Angela Christine]

Regardless of how safe the dormitories should be (which is debatable) the thing is that the room description makes them look like a good place to sleep.  Since all the newbie has to go by is the room description, it makes sense that they try to sleep there.  

It certainly makes more sense ICly to sleep in a public dormitory than to try the slightly-older-newbie trick of finding an empty building or little-used alley to sleep in -- those places usually are safer but only because they are less frequented by PCs so there is less chance of being spotted by a PC and stripped.  However, when you consider the entire population of the city, sleeping in a public hostel should be safer than sleeping in a gutter.  When I had been playing for a few months (and already been robbed in the dormitory) I had characters sleep off bad wounds at the corner of Wall Road and West Dragon's Path.  :roll:  ICly it is probably a busy corner, but hardly any PCs go there.  Later I came to the conclusion that this was a damned stupid thing to do, and started putting out the 100 coins to rent a tavern room if I needed a secure place for a clanless character to sleep without spotters.  (Spotters aren't foolproof either, I've had my duster and skirt stolen while being guarded by two other PCs.  That was awkward.)

Now I occasionally sleep in a public dormitory for the hell of it.  Sometimes I get robbed, sometimes I don't, but I know the risk.  If I'm just taking a light nap, dozing, etc. I use the rest command instead of the sleep command, to indicate that I am not deeply asleep and ready to have my pants stolen.  Most public dormitories have cots, bedrolls and such ("look tables" to see them) and I figure "resting on a urine stained cot" for a while is enough to keep my character from suffering the effects of sleep deprivation.   --  But a newbie doesn't know all that.  They make the decision to sleep without understanding all the risks.  They may even be trying to sleep for role play reasons rather than coded necessity, for example because they think that their PC should sleep at night like a normal person.  It sucks if they get punished for that.


If public sleeping areas were made thief proof, it should be preventative rather than auto-fail.  I like to think that many of the people who steal pants in public dormitories are also fairly new players, possibly even non-thief classes who see an opportunity to try out the steal code and can't resist.  So I'd prefer code that prevents the steal attempt, or does an "are you sure" type thing.

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
But there are guards watching!
So you are unable to even attempt the theft.

-- or--

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
Are you sure you want to do that?  There are people watching.  (Type "steal now" to go ahead and attempt the theft.)
This would allow you to try to steal, but with a substantial penalty and knowing the risks.

-- not --

Code Select Expand

>steal sleeper's pants
You quietly approach your target.
The many people sitting around watching point and laugh at you.  
You are now wanted!


Angela Christine

[Pantoufle]

The trouble with stealing a backpack off a sleeping person isn't doing it so the sleeping person doesn't know it, it's doing it so all the people around you don't notice!

How in the hell are you going rob even the deepest sleeper of his/her garments if their dozing within a tavern dormitory, surrounded by dozens of (virtual) people all in various states of consciousness?

[moab]

You can totally get your pack stolen from your back while awake in RL.  

Thief sneaks up to you in a crowd.  Supports the pack with one hand as you stand there, cuts the straps with a razor sharp blade with the other (the bottom of the straps, near the pack itself.

Now he quick pulls it from your shoulders while you say WTF? and hits a run or disappears into the crowd.  This shit happens.

My brother-in-law was in France with his pack tucked under his feet and fully awake and nearly got it stolen by the guy who was sitting next to him.  The thief used a misdirection, some clever balancing the weight tricks and nearly had him.

Sleeping?  Feh.  Cake.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I kinda like the safe domitory idea.

[Maybe42or54]

Sleeping?  Feh.  Cake.

The real world has enough players. We want some more.