Warriors and their culture

[Delirium]

The idea just struck me..

What about mage-specific 'quests' in the elementalists quarter, for money-makers?

Quests that require objects or skills provided only by various mage spells.

That way, a mage could make a small amount of money without needing to leave the gates or even the elementalists' Quarter, and would have another option besides entering service of a noble House.

[spawnloser]

You mean something along the lines of, an NPC that needs water...so the Vivaduan makes X amount of water and gets Y amount of coins?

[Delirium]

You mean something along the lines of, an NPC that needs water...so the Vivaduan makes X amount of water and gets Y amount of coins?

Yup.

A Vivaduan could and still can sell to PCs - however - the PC market fluctuates and is often far more sparse than would accurately be reflected.

[Cale_Knight]

Hell, that kind of stuff would be awesome for everyone. Not just those filthy gemmers.

[Larrath]

Hell, that kind of stuff would be awesome for everyone. Not just those filthy gemmers.

I already get upset when I see perfectly mundane PCs walk around the elementalist's quarter selling Component-type items.  I don't think normalizing PCs running errands for soul-eating magickers is a good idea.

[Maybe42or54]

That's like dealing with half breeds can send you to the most horrible hell pit. I'm not for making magicking Pcs mundane and more acceptable in the eyes of the common populace.

[Cale_Knight]

I already get upset when I see perfectly mundane PCs walk around the elementalist's quarter selling Component-type items.  I don't think normalizing PCs running errands for soul-eating magickers is a good idea.

No, I mean tiny questish scripts would be great all over the place, not just in the magicker quarter.

[Cenghiz]

Which's less horrible? Travelling to north, stopping at an alien outpost on the way, facing gith, scrabs, beetles, raiders, wild elves, reenegade mages and defilers on the way or speaking to a Whiran and asking to buy logs for a price from him? Facing silt horrors, silt flyers, scrabs, beetles, unlawful red storm spiceheads, reenegade mages, defilers and storms to acquire *xxx - maybe IC for some* or asking about it to a mage of proper type? What would you prefer? An elkran or whiran bringing you glass from Cenyr or going yourself?
Commoners fear mages. It's true. But sometimes they're the less frightening when it comes to scavenging and some other business. I don't think "They're mages, fear them and do not employ them for anything." attitude is very logical. Many unbelieveable tasks are so easy for them. So they may often ask for less for a task.
And I would hate to see NPCs giving quests. C'mon.. That just doesn't feel right.
If you're human, have southern accent and play at least close to the peak, you get employed. I never had an exception with a gemmed char of mine. Also these roles are often interesting. Templar players are always good at keeping your character busy. House Oash performs trips if nothing else interesting is possible at that time. It's simply easy to find jobs, as I see it. But if that's not enough, please let something other than NPC quests be added.

[Rindan]

I personally think that gemmed are massivly under employed.  Gemmed are scary bastards that most commoners should avoid, but that doesn't mean that everyone fails to see their obvious utility.  If I were to start up my own little band of Allanaki mercenaries, I would have a gemmed contacts and hire them out from time to time.  Sure, I wouldn't be terribly vocal about it, but I wouldn't overlook the obvious utility of having a guy who can turn a clumsy assault into a magikally aided sneak attack.

Dealing with a gemmed is like dealing with a criminal.  Most honest people would avoid such dealings.  Not everyone is honest.  They might have reservations and be on their guard when having such dealings, but they would still have them.

[Synthesis]

Cenghiz:

Most ordinary Zalanthans have no idea -what- magickers can do, beyond the rudimentary knowledge of elements, perhaps, and given that, they have no reason to speak to them in the first place.  This means that the business transaction conversation is never going to take place.  Also, your average commoner is -terrified- of magick.  For them, asking a magicker for help would be akin to trying to mount a wild inix.  Sure, it might help you out a bunch, but this thing might also decide to eat your brainz...and if they're so good at moving heavy things around, it's likely that nobody will ever find your corpse.

Employing a magicker for such mundane purposes as scavenging for items or running errands (even if profitable) would never even cross the mind of the average Zalanthan.  Sure, it might not be logical from our OOC perspective, but this is how the game world is.  Magick is not something that people factor into their cost-benefit analyses.  It's not another resource to exploit for fun and profit.  Magick is serious, dangerous, scary business, and it's not to be trifled with unless you have a very serious, compelling reason.  (Or you're completely out of your gourd.)

Regarding raiding missions and things of that nature:  these seem to be the province more of the Templarate and the nobility.  I can see Kurac doing it (because Kurac gets all sorts of passes to do whatever bizarre things they decide they want to do, anyway), but Kadius and Salarr don't "raid" things and they seem to be managing quite well on their own, without the (overt) assistance of magickers.  So...who exactly needs this magickal augmentation?  It would ultimately be useful only to those without the resources to overcome obstacles on mundane terms...which is to say...exactly those who one wouldn't expect to be dallying with magickers.

Beyond that, you'd have to deal with the repercussions from other commoners.  If you're in the business of selling things, the last thing you want to do is tarnish your image by dealing with a magicker.  It raises all sorts of suspicions:  how does he know so much about magick?  Where did he meet this magicker?  What other sort of business are they conducting that we don't know about?  Are his goods tainted with magick?  Does -he- have a magick taint that might rub off on me?  If he thinks I'm screwing him on a bargain, will he pay his magicker associate to steal my babies in the middle of the night and turn them into jozhals?

Furthermore, why would a magicker (I'm going to assume we're talking about southern gemmed magickers, here) risk his or her butt out in some unlawful, unpredictable wilderness just to go fetch you some logs where a random raider or other nasty beastie could quite possibly kill them?  Since they're so resourceful, they probably have other, much safer ways of sustaining themselves, which is why you don't see elementalists in the Barrel striking up conversations...."So, Joe...I hear you're mining 'sid...you know...it'd be a -lot- easier if you had some shade out there...you know? I mean...I can do that...what do you say? Cut me in on half?"  They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.  Why would they leave their safe haven to risk their necks for a few 'sid?  Why would the average magicker even bother with accumulating 'sid when 1) they live at the whim of the Templarate every single moment of their lives and 2) the kind of power and enjoyment you can get from 'sid alone pales in comparison to the kind of power they can call forth with a few syllables (assuming that they're after power at all, which would vary from person to person).

As to magickers being underemployed, this is more a function of PC realities than with the population.  The population of elementalists in Allanak is quite large enough for it to live self-sustainably.  They aren't all just lurking around their temples practicing their spells all day, like PC magickers tend to do.  

The vast majority of them probably spend little time at all worrying about magickal things, unless they're forced to do so.  (Now I'm just speculating, but bear with me...) Why?  Power makes you useful.  And being useful is more likely to get you killed than anything else when you've got a dull black gem around your neck. (I seriously doubt any of them have any illusions as to what exactly those gems are for.)  

Given this, they probably have the same distribution of menial jobs as everyone else in Allanak, but they trade with each other for what they need.  Perhaps a very, very small minority would have contacts with commoners--mundane relatives or acquaintances formed over decades of cautious interaction--but these would be far from the rule.

In conclusion...sure, I can think of a plethora of IC justifications for using magickers for whatever or for doing whatever as a magicker.  However, a lot of them just don't make any sense once you account for the entire game world, and the ones that remain require a very specific set of criteria be met before it becomes a reasonable proposition...

Just say "no" to magick.

[Cale_Knight]

They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.

If I understand the law correctly, only the actual temples are off-limits to citizens.

For the average citizen, going into the elementalist quarter would be about the same as going into the 'rinth. Nobody's stopping you, but (as far as you know), you very well might not make it out alive.

[Cenghiz]

Most ordinary Zalanthans have no idea -what- magickers can do, beyond the rudimentary knowledge of elements, perhaps, and given that, they have no reason to speak to them in the first place. This means that the business transaction conversation is never going to take place. Also, your average commoner is -terrified- of magick. For them, asking a magicker for help would be akin to trying to mount a wild inix. Sure, it might help you out a bunch, but this thing might also decide to eat your brainz...and if they're so good at moving heavy things around, it's likely that nobody will ever find your corpse.

Wrong. In Allanak, people are allowed to know what magickers can to a degree according to the helpfiles. Like, a lot of Allanaki would know rukkians are able to form shelters in travel, because the helpfile says so.
I had asked about it in Ask The Staff before. It's even IC for someone from somewhere else who frequents Allanak to know about magickers.
Accepted by Staff: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16388&highlight= (Last paraghraph and second answer)

The next paraghraph is automagickally rejected. As the helpfiles state, rukkians are best travellers and whirans may sell their magick for cash and they may be employed for their abilities, see the staff's answer above, also the helpfiles of elementalists.

Regarding raiding missions and things of that nature: these seem to be the province more of the Templarate and the nobility. I can see Kurac doing it (because Kurac gets all sorts of passes to do whatever bizarre things they decide they want to do, anyway), but Kadius and Salarr don't "raid" things and they seem to be managing quite well on their own, without the (overt) assistance of magickers. So...who exactly needs this magickal augmentation? It would ultimately be useful only to those without the resources to overcome obstacles on mundane terms...which is to say...exactly those who one wouldn't expect to be dallying with magickers.

As I did mention: Independent folks seeking glass from Cenyr, wood from northlands and some items in the artifact category from ruins. An assassin would love to become invisible or have a skin of stone. A hunter could ask for summoning or guidance when he's lost in storm in exchange of coins. Possibilities are simply endless. Kadius and Salarr cannot hire magickers for obvious reasons, but not everyone is kadian or salarri.

Beyond that, you'd have to deal with the repercussions from other commoners. If you're in the business of selling things, the last thing you want to do is tarnish your image by dealing with a magicker. It raises all sorts of suspicions: how does he know so much about magick? Where did he meet this magicker? What other sort of business are they conducting that we don't know about? Are his goods tainted with magick? Does -he- have a magick taint that might rub off on me? If he thinks I'm screwing him on a bargain, will he pay his magicker associate to steal my babies in the middle of the night and turn them into jozhals?

Same goes for Guild, right? Working with people in dark, hooded cloaks does not feel right to an honest commoner. Guild assassins can whack you to a dead bleeding pulp in a moment. Guild revenges when screwed up.... Guild deals with everyone in Allanak.
.... As I mentioned in my post, if you're to mess with dangers including ungemmed magickers and defilers in the desert on the road to Cenyr or somewhere else far away or gemmed magickers, a sane and normal person may choose to blubber his wish to a gemmer instead.

Furthermore, why would a magicker (I'm going to assume we're talking about southern gemmed magickers, here) risk his or her butt out in some unlawful, unpredictable wilderness just to go fetch you some logs where a random raider or other nasty beastie could quite possibly kill them?

Become a 20-day-old magicker and it takes more than three adept warriors to scratch you. I had mages who were ambushed by armies of gith, swarms of tribals or even military organizations like Tor and kept on with less than 20 points of damage. You're underestimating magickers, like many do. Believe me or not, it's not more than a jogging for a few different elementalist types to pass through raptors, scrabs, beetles, gith and raiders towards a baobab grove, chop some wood and come back. So why shouldn't they?

They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.

It's technically legal for mundane people to wander in the Elementalist's Quarter.

And being useful is more likely to get you killed than anything else when you've got a dull black gem around your neck. (I seriously doubt any of them have any illusions as to what exactly those gems are for.)

When a templar gems you, the first thing he does is demonstrate what the gem is for. And.. The more useful you are, the more lords/ladies use you and want you alive. I had a gemmer cheating on templars, getting caught redhanded and staying alive even without punishment, just because he was way too useful to dispose of.

Forgive me but I sense lack of information on your part. Please let's not assume things against the official view or the documentation.

[Synthesis]

Cenghiz, on a point-by-point basis:

1. The "help magick" helpfile specifically states that the general public knows very little about magick.  Perhaps the helpfiles do state that Rukkians make good travelling companions, but I think that may be an artifact of the MUD's history, not a consistent fact.  It certainly seems to make little sense, and at any rate, it contradicts the more general statement that magick is FEARED and HATED (also from the help files).

2. Again...assassins and hunters would not ask for spells to be cast on them because they have no idea what spells can do, generally.  Maybe over time an exceptional mundane individual could become somewhat familiar with magick, but this is not the sort of knowledge one picks up as a matter of course.  Going back to the help file...magick is a MYSTERIOUS and VERY RARE power.  It's not like knowing where the North Road goes or where Red Storm's at.  Independents simply would not hire magickers, and it's highly unlikely that magickers would hire themselves out, for the reasons I outlined in my first post.  Halaster's response to your question back in December seemed rather off-the-cuff, and I seriously doubt this is a position that it would be desirable to maintain, unless some fundamental changes were made to the way average folks view magick.  Or here's another quote from the helpfiles, since you seem to place such importance on them: "Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist."  If only large organizations are doing it -at all-...why would small-time independents (and all independents are small-time, considering the help files state that the large merchant Houses CONTROL the economy) be doing it for such trivial matters as wood and stone?

3. Hiring a magicker has nothing to do with the Guild.  The Guild -forces- people to work with -them-...or else.  You deal with the Guild because you have to...because they're everywhere, and if you don't, they'll kill you.  Magickers are absoloutely nothing like this (in Allanak, anyway), and at any rate, the scenario you outline isn't even remotely similar to extortion.  They're two completely different types of danger that you're confounding here.

4. I'm sure I've seen quite enough of the capabilities of magickers to make my case with some certainty.  Regardless, the question remains the same:  why would a magicker with the ability to fend off swarms of gith even -bother- with chopping wood or running to Cenyr? Why? There's just no good reason at all, beyond coinage.  And it seems to me that a magicker with this level of mastery would be easily hired by an APPROPRIATE organization, e.g. a Noble House, for far greater sums of money than any mere groveling independent merchant could hope to afford.

5. During the course of play for my last militia character, it was specifically illegal for ungemmed personnel to be found anywhere in the Elementalists' Quarter, and I was ordered to conduct regular patrols there to keep the riff-raff out.  Now, maybe this was a temporary thing, or has been changed recently, but I'm going to stick to this one until an AoD Imm says otherwise.  Beyond the mere legality, though, there's the whole issue of "why would a mundane person be there in the first place?"  Why?  Again, there's just -no- good reason for the vast majority of individuals.  Magick is FEARED and HATED by the VAST MAJORITY of the population of Zalanthas.  (This is right out of the help file, since you seem to be such a stickler for it.)

6. I'm not talking about being "disposed of" here.  I'm talking about being used for dangerous tasks and being killed in the process.  If Lord Fancypants knows you can cast Fart of Doom, eventually he's going to want you to use it on somebody...and that's the sort of thing that ends up getting a fellow killed, even (especially?) if you're the one doing the casting.

As far as my information, I've documented my position well enough--at least as well as you've documented yours, at any rate.

[spawnloser]

Synthesis, on a point-by-point basis:

1 Resolve issues between helpfiles by believing both.  Commong mundane people don't know much of anything about magick, but they know that Rukkians make great travelers, and that vivaduans can heal and make water...etc.  Also, just because a thing is feared or hated does not mean it can not still be used.  These things do not conflict, so don't use that as a basis for your argument that magickers shouldn't be employed by more than just two organizations.

2 Okay, pretend Hunter Bob, with his hunting crew, gets over his fear enough to get help from a Rukkian.  He doesn't know what the Rukkian can do, but he asked for help, and Rukkian obliges...casting spells on him.  Initially, Bob freaks out...but then slowly realizes that he isn't hurt, etc.  Okay, decides the hunter, this magicker ain't all bad...doesn't mean he's changed his mind about the rest, and his having backup was the only reason he decided to hire the magicker in the first place.  (Hint: for your 'large organization' quote, 'large' is a relative term.)

3 The Guild doesn't force everyone to work with them.  I use the fact that I've played in the 'Rinth a few times and not been forced to work with them...in fact, opposed the Guild a couple times.  For a normal schmuck sort of role in this game, though, the Guild is someone you will try to avoid, just like magickers...unless you come across something that they can fix for you, then you take a deep breath, grimace and deal with them.

4 Why work like that?  Well, everyone needs to eat, and some people don't want their magick sold, but what they do with their magick...a fine point.  The difference is getting paid to do a job...and the other is being paid to cast a spell.  Some people don't want to be the magicker first...they want to be the person that grew up doing some trade, so they'd rather keep doing it and use their magical abilities to make it easier.  Your non-magicker characters jobs are not defined by guild, so why should all magickers be locked into a role where they are their guild and nothing else?

5 There is no mention in the post on the tavern board in Allanak stating that it is generally illegal.  Templars are Law unto themselves, though, and that particular Templar PC may have said it was illegal on a whim and stuck with it.  Doesn't mean other Templars will enforce, let alone know about, it.  My suspicion is that you weren't being told the full story and that it had to do something with Rinthi's...suspiciously dirty and ungemmed people wandering through the Elementalists Quarter.

6 You know, if being useful to someone will cause that someone to kill you...we have LOTS of retarded leaders in this game.  Useful things are kept around, useless ones discarded.  Also, Lord Fancypants may want you to use a certain spell on someone...but a smart Lord Fancypants will not just discard an experienced employee to something stupid.  Plans can be made and preperations done.  Also, as long as you're the peon in an organization, you'll be the one sent to do dangerous things...be you a warrior, ranger, assassin, burglar, rukkian, whiran...doesn't matter.  You're the grunt, and they're the noble/merchant/boss.  They tell you what to do, and sometimes those things include doing things dangerous.  This is no different between guilds, be they casters or not.

[Larrath]

I disagree with spawnloser on a couple of points.

First of all, the hunter might see that the Rukkian cast a spell on him and that he wasn't hurt.  But how can that hunter know that this spell won't make him impotent, curse him with bad luck, cause his house to fall down or infest his offspring with elementalism?  Not to mention destroying his soul or anything.

Second thing is about nobles and magickers as their grunts.  Magickers are nothing like regular employees.  If you yell at an aide in your Estate, at the worst case the aide might pull out a dagger and jump at you, being quickly wiped out by the NPC bodyguard.  If you yell at a powerful Rukkian in your Estate and he snaps, the entire Estate can turn into rubble in seconds.  Piss off a strong Krathi and you might find that the fire he's started is actually burning through the stone walls.
Explain that to your superiors.

Magickers are extremely dangerous, and anyone who wants to work with them and survive (especially the Oashi) has to be aware of the risks.  Once you have a powerful magicker who doesn't care about his own personal life in your Estate, you are going to have to handle some 50+ deaths in the near-by region if you're lucky enough to survive yourself.
Don't look at it in that "okay, Rukkian Spell #4 doesn't do any coded damage, so my PC feels no pain or gets any harm from it".  Superstitions are priceless and extremely beneficial for roleplay.

[spawnloser]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

[Larrath]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.
It's okay for people to get past the superstition IF they have a good reason.  Educated PCs (such as Merchant Family, not broke regular merchants) would know that the vast majority of the superstitions is bullshit, but some independent hunter?  Not unless someone from his family was a magicker.

I agree that magickers terrifying everyone and being hated is not an iron-clad rule, but I also think that if one out of five of your characters isn't hateful or fearful of magickers, you're playing the exception too much.

A well-played magicker needs most people to hate him, just like a well-played half-elf has to be treated like shit by most people.  If you and your ten PC friends pick up a random half-elf and start treating him like a king and invariably putting up with whatever half-elven defenses he might put up, well, most likely that half-elf's player will get pretty pissed.
I know I got upset when my deformed and lonely gemmer got three supermodel-looking women just begging to get him in bed - it simply threw a wrench into his whole persona.

[jhunter]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

Agreed. I think that some of the rp toward magickers needs to be improved by people not playing every single pc as being so foolish not to utilize a perfectly useful tool (albeit a potentially dangerous one) when they see it. In Allanak, mages are supposed to be utilized more than they actually are. Just because you fear something  doesn't mean that you won't utilize it to your benefit. Sure, -some- people might. But the intelligent and calculating ones would not.
Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.
In the case of the Allanaki and elementalists, I think too many people are playing the minority instead of what should realistically be the majority. Does everyone fear and mistrust mages? Sure. Have they all grown up around them most of their lives in the city and heard some of what they can do? Yup. Have they all seen that powerful people use mages effectively to their benefit? Mostly. After all, the templarate and House Oash use them. Must be some reason behind it. Why wouldn't someone pay a mage to go risk their lives to accomplish something for them? Why wouldn't they pay a mage to go "curse" their enemy?
Just because I may fear you, doesn't mean I won't use you if I can. And if you happen to die in the process, no skin off my nose.

[Larrath]

Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.

Would you pick up a barrel packed with flash-powder and plant it somewhere as a weapon?  Because if you mess up, or run into flame or the barrel is messed up or someone tricked you or heard about it, you'll be blasted to bits.

[jhunter]

Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.

Would you pick up a barrel packed with flash-powder and plant it somewhere as a weapon?  Because if you mess up, or run into flame or the barrel is messed up or someone tricked you or heard about it, you'll be blasted to bits.

Yes. And it's been done in game many many times. Multiple barrels in a few cases. That further proves my point, even if it is potentially dangerous, people will utilize something if it serves their purpose.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.

That's nice, but the rest of us enjoy interaction with other PCs.

[LauraMars]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

Yeah it's called the natural course of a discussion.   :P

[Larrath]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

Sure it does.
We're flame warriors.

[God]

Hey, I'm mentioned in there!