Warriors and their culture

[EvilRoeSlade]

These statements are also misleading, and not representative of the way things are in the game these days or how other parts of the documents describe the world and society.

In all of those quotes I would rather see the players change rather than the documentation.

[Marauder Moe]

These statements are also misleading, and not representative of the way things are in the game these days or how other parts of the documents describe the world and society.

In all of those quotes I would rather see the players change rather than the documentation.

Assassins and pickpockets should advertise themselves publicly?  On the rumor boards maybe?  Should Amos the Hunter one day say "Well, I know that magickers are evil but I think risking my soul is worth it to have Magicker Bob tag along and magick us around the known world"?

Are you serious?

The only one I'd agree with you is the one abount merchants.  Some independant PC (or even NPC) caravans would be awesome.  However, there aren't any now and until there are it's a misleading statement.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes, I would like to see more temporary/mercenary as well as permanent positions for magickers in Allanak.  In truth I really don't give a shit that commoners are supposed to fear magickers and avoid them at all costs, because avoiding something at all costs is BORING and doesn't add enjoyment to the game for anyone.  Though I'd like people to respect the documentation in their role-play and be cautious with their dealings with magickers, I wouldn't mind seeing more exceptions.

As for assassins and pickpockets advertising themselves publically, that isn't what I'm reading from the documentation at all.

[Marauder Moe]

What I mean is, I don't see how you can call it "easily employed" when you have to keep your profession a secret.  Publicly known assassins and thieves don't do very well.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree a bit on magickers.  I don't think they should never be able to get work, but it should be pretty rare.  The guild doc makes it seem like it should be common, though.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What I mean is, I don't see how you can call it "easily employed" when you have to keep your profession a secret.  Publicly known assassins and thieves don't do very well.

Again, I'm not reading the same thing.  I don't see it said that assassins or pickpockets are easily employed anywhere.

[Cale_Knight]

Assassins are often the simplest people to employ, for various warring
factions usually have a desire to see their enemies slain quietly and
simply, with minimal risk to themselves. For this reason, skilled assassins
are almost never without work.

However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal
specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which
will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able
to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.


From their respective help files.

[Tuannon]

SKILLED!

Emphasis on skilled.. as an assassin or whatever, your best bet is to not let on to your employer what skills you have until you are sure they think they can trust you and then you let the cat out of the bag.

[ArmWindworn]

"Sure would be nice if we had some Gernades!!!!"
                      or
    "Lets be Bad Guys"

           Not exactly the model of the modern honerable warrior is he

Glory isn't a hard concept to follow, even in our society. But it's the honor and fairness that I find question with. If this is not the case, if this is not how warriors think, then it needs to be changed, and if it is, then it needs to be clarified, because although an individual might have fairness and honor to him, there is no way a class should have the same weakness, not under those broad banners.

I think that it's entirely possible that a warrior would usually be taught these concepts.  They'll only kill in a fair fight.  Or if they think someone's about to start a fair fight.  Or if there's a girl involved.  Or if they're paid to.  Mostly if they're paid to.

Fairness:  Don't go around slaughtering defenseless people.  For a society to last, this would at least have to be TAUGHT to the warrior tradition, otherwise you'd have a bunch of murderers that aren't contributing to society.

Honor:  Again, a warrior might be TAUGHT that the best way of doing business is to stay bought once somebody buys you, and to develop a reputation for dependability.

In any event, there isn't anything that prevents any given warrior from spurning their teachings except fear of the consequences, and so it would be wrong to assume that any given warrior has respect for honor or fairness.

This little snippet doesn't have to mean that all warriors are paladins, staunchly battling Evil and forever in pursuit of Law, Good, and the American Way.  So I don't see that there's a big deal.  The whole thing's open to all manner of interpretation.

[Manhattan]

I'd like for all class helpfiles to have in big bold letters up top "What you pick as a class does not determine who your character is.  It is skill set designed to offer PCs a variety of abilities with which to play a character in the world and interact with the environment realisitcally" or something much better than I could write.

The only absolute trait warriors have in common is that they are capable fighters, moreso than any other guild.

[spawnloser]

I think magickers should be more employable too.  I mean, mercenary style work for magickers would be perfect.  Thirsty?  Find a vivaduan.  Going to be running around outside and want some protection?  Need some caravan burnt to the ground?  Call a Krathi.

[jhunter]

I think magickers should be more employable too.  I mean, mercenary style work for magickers would be perfect.  Thirsty?  Find a vivaduan.  Going to be running around outside and want some protection?  Need some caravan burnt to the ground?  Call a Krathi.

Agreed. Besides Oash they just aren't hired enough.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, I seemed to have openned a can of worms. My question was not whether the docs needed to be changed, but, what did the honor and fairness stand for.

You all seem to have answered that admirably, Roe and LoD in particular. It is good to see things like this discussed.

[Folker]

not to derail a thread, but I disagree about magickers completely. If they're freely hired, then how are they shunned? To be honest, I think people go to Vivadian temple for healing too much as it is.

[EvilRoeSlade]

not to derail a thread, but I disagree about magickers completely. If they're freely hired, then how are they shunned? To be honest, I think people go to Vivadian temple for healing too much as it is.

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

If somebody who will associate with water elementalists is an exception, then at least it's an exception that the documentation makes legitimate.

But I'm going to expand upon my point that exceptions are more valuable to the game in this instance.  Tell me which of the following is more interesting.

Sark found out that he was a stone elementalist at a young age and was then gemmed and forced to live in the temple in the elementalist's quarter.  Since nobody ever talks to magickers, he lived his entire life without doing anything out of the ordinary or even having a mildly interesting conversation.  One day he died of old age.

Or...

Sark stepped back into the gates of Allanak, realizing with vague alarm that he hadn't been back for a month.  It seemed that as he grew older, his desire and need to return to the city was more and more fleeting.  On his way back to his apartment, a large, well-armored man suddenly stepped out of an alley, blocking his way.  Sark began to move around him but the man grabbed him by the arm.
"Stop and chat with me a bit, eh?"
"Hey stop, I don't have any money!"  Protested Sark, but the man dragged him into the alley.
"Me and my boys are plannin' an expedition outside the gates.  It's been said that you might be useful for this kind of work, so I'm gonna make you a little offer.
"But let's just get one thing straight," said the man, pulling back his cloak to reveal a wickedly-bladed handaxe.  "One wrong move... and you're DEAD."

The purpose of Armageddon is story-telling.  You can't tell an effective story without interaction.

[Intrepid]

I love the Elementalists' Quarter in Allanak, as well as the regalia and
tattoos.  In fact, I would have loved to be able to visit a tavern in that
quarter and never have to frequent the Barrel or the Gaj when I was
playing my gemmer.

However, the system in Allanak just makes rogue elementalists that much
more appealing and exciting...and profitable.  So I must say, being a
black-marketing mage will always be my first option when I play an
elementalist so long as Oash is the only hiring option.  Sorry, but I just
never liked the idea of working for Oash just because they were the only
employers.

The one thing that gets me is Red Storm allowing in some of the people
they do, but not allowing a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy for mages.  It
seems like the village was created specifically to be mage-proof, when it
should be just the opposite given that the philosophy regarding all other
facets of the village has always been "anything goes, if you're careful".

[Angela Christine]

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.


Angela Christine

[jhunter]

Some excellent points here.

You can still be an Allanaki mage and be somewhat shunned and disliked for what you are. That doesn't mean that noone will use you to their benefit.
People should make more use of the elementalists in Allanak.

Also, I completely agree with what AC said as well...

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything. Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets. They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed. It sounds pretty dull.

The people that do hire mages don't usually put them to use doing anything. They're treated like living trophies or something. It's dumb.

[Cale_Knight]

The amount of stuff Oashi mages get to do seems in direct proportion to how often the 'nakki militia orders them to do things.

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes, but it does look pretty dull.

[jhunter]

The amount of stuff Oashi mages get to do seems in direct proportion to how often the 'nakki militia orders them to do things.

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes, but it does look pretty dull.

I'm not speaking about what it -looks- like. I've been on their end of it. You're just a trophy that gathers dust for the -most- part. Rarely was my pc or any of the others put to any actual use.

[spawnloser]

Heh, good wage, AC?  Play a gemmer working for Oash.  They're paid...adequetely, considering that they're a bunch of mages and most of their needs are handled by themselves.

Yes, they are basically told, "Become useful!" and then left to do so...and once they are useful, used...but it's like working as a guard for a noble house.  You start off a wuss and need to practice some skills to become useful.  The House keeps you alive in the meantime through a combination of food, water and pay (but not necessarily all of these things) and provides a central point for you to work from.  The rest is your own doing.

Really, though most take the, "Become useful,' command to mean practicing skills, becoming useful isn't just about skills.  You can be useful in other capacities, and being a gemmer in Oash's pay is much the same.

[jmordetsky]

That quote should be removed from the docs. It's dumb.

[jcarter]

I think that, more likely than not ethics are taught within houses to the guards/soldiers/warriors as well as by other instructors.

Does Tor really want a reputation for their soldiers to be baby-killing, elf-raping, sneaky backstabbing soldiers? Not likely. Despite Zalanthas being harsh and cruel, there is more than likely several ethics and taboos, as well as concepts of right and wrong to certain groups of people. I have a hard time believing otherwise, as the cities and such in place today simply couldn't exist. The lieutenants would be killing the captains so they could take their ranks. Brothers would turn against brothers in a vie for dominance. There would be near anarchy in the world. Sure, it may be that someone is strong enough to enforce their wil, but everyone has a weakness and is susceptible to something.

[Oashi kank]

Sorry to derail this thread further but some of this needed a response:

To Cale_Knight:  Nothing could be further from the truth when the clan is strong.  Requests from a templar can actually be distracting from the really fun stuff you're already doing.  The fact that Oash is often called upon by the templarate is largely icing on the cake, depending on how deep House plots are going.

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.


Angela Christine

I'm sorry that was your experience AC and I have no doubt that you and jhunter did have boring experiences in Oash.  Just like people have boring experiences in the Byn, in Kurac, or whatever other clan.

For a LONG time Oash was a dead clan where there was a serious lack of active nobles.  And when there aren't many other gemmed playing, and a lot of gemmed refuse to join Oash because of an OOC perception that it's a boring role...snowball effect in tearing down the clan.

Here's some thoughts on playing an Oashi mage:

1) The "become useful" command, as already mentioned by swawnloser, means in part spells because out of the box mages are largely useless but also has other meanings.  Playing a fun Oashi gemmed can and probably should mean playing like an aide PC as well.  Eavesdrop, make contacts and connections, search for componentry, spy....make yourself useful!  And I'll tell you that some magicker classes have abilities to assist in these capacities that would make a mundane aide piss his pants.

2)  Practicing spells:  You're going to do that anyway, I don't see much of a difference.  Oh but wait...Oashi gemmed should follow the law and not leave the city except when ordered.  Hmm, sounds familiar to the same rules as the Byn to prevent their runners from going out onto the sands and getting themselves killed while practicing fighting versus deadly opponents.  Sure it's boring to spar or to practice spells in your temple but it also helps you survive to get to a point where stuff really does get enjoyable.

3)  Network:  Oash is all about networking and mages using their powers in conjunction.  Think your krathi is powerful?  Wait till they get aided by a few Ruk spells and then see what they can do.  The clan atmosphere (when active) also gives you a group of people to exchange info and contacts with thereby increasing your ability to do #1 and #2

4)  Think about your element:  Element means everything in what role you will fill in the House.  And people need to think hard about what type of role they want to play.  Not all roles are equal however, some magicker types will have a lot more freedom to use their spells for the House's benefit.  But I think an enterprising character, with good support from leader PCs, can find a lot of things to do with their element beyond what happens during RPT time.

5) Unobtrusive?:  AC you say Oashi mages should be as unobtrusive as possible.  That would be a terrible role to find yourself in, but it's not my experience.  If you work on the above four points, particularly other parts of "become useful", you can be in the spotlight in no time.  Yet you are still an aide, no doubt about that and you need to understand the limits and bounds of your PC.  But unlike an Atrium aide who is largely embraced by everyone you have an uphill battle to win a place in society despite the gem hanging around your neck.  And that struggle in and of itself can be enjoyable to roleplay.

All that stuff said, Oash depends on leaders.  If you don't have great leader support that knows what they're doing commanding magickers then you won't have a fun experience.  But this is like any clan, the Byn is dreadful when there isn't a competent Sergeant around to get contracts.  But when there is then it's one of my favorite clans.  Please don't judge Oash on past experiences, to think of any of the PCs I interact with as "trophies" really saddens me because I worry that now others will read that and take it as truth.  I'm sure it has been but it certainly hasn't been MY experience with the clan.  I've appreciated all my activity with Oashi staff, nobles, and magickers and hope to see the clan thrive whether I'm playing in it or not.

Conclusion:  Playing an Oashi magicker can be a lot like playing a House Aide that has the power to slaughter a room full of people with a wave of his hand.

[Vesperas]

Bah, you don't even need to be "useful" to get the fun out of Oash.

[Angela Christine]

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.

I'm sorry that was your experience AC and I have no doubt that you and jhunter did have boring experiences in Oash.

Just for clairity, I've never been a mage in noble house.  That's why I said "sounds dull" rather than "was dull'.    


Still, I'd like it if there were more piecework for mages.  More choices than either joining a noble house or mining 'sid for money.


Angela Christine