Warriors and their culture

[Jakahri]

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.

That's nice, but the rest of us enjoy interaction with other PCs.

Absolutely. I've played a half-elf gemmed in the past, and it's one of the most restrictive roles in the game. It didn't matter that I had the potential to cause alot of destruction; no house wanted me because of my mixed lineage.

[Synthesis]

Spawnloser:

1. Why would people know that Rukkians make great traveling companions?  Who is out there traveling with Rukkians and spreading this good word?  -Nobody- is.  I can understand people knowing that Vivaduans can heal and make water--I'll grant you that.  But for almost every other magickal capability...no.  Just no.  I can't imagine a realistic scenario where an ordinary Zalanthan would think to himself, "You know...this would be -so- much easier if I had that really creepy guy who could probably burn me alive from the inside out giving me a hand."  Neither am I going to grant you that a feared and hated thing can still be used.  If you truly fear and hate something, you'll want to keep it as far away from you as possible, or get rid of it at the earliest opportunity.  You're not going to hang around and see if it might be useful.

2. Your second point is an extension of the first, and I've already addressed the first.  The same reasoning applies here.

3. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Guild works.  I'm not going to give any more specifics, but your entire 3rd point is upside down and backwards.

4. I never said magickers are defined by their guild.  In fact, I seem to recall specifically stating that the majority of magickers probably don't spend a lot of time magicking about.  What I -did- wonder is:  "Why would an incredibly powerful magicker waste his time with menial tasks?"  If you can wade through an army of gith and laugh, you just don't go out and chop wood for fun and profit.  It makes no sense.

5. Fine, mundane people can go into the Elementalists' Quarter, legally.  This still doesn't mean they ever would, under normal circumstances.

6. You entirely misunderstand my point, here.  My point is -not- that someone will kill you because you're useful to someone else.  My point is that your -employer- will send you to do something DANGEROUS that will likely GET YOU KILLED.  Comparing magickal employees to mundane employees is not good form, here.  The types of things you send a magicker to do are inherently more dangerous than the things you'd send a mundane employee to do...because if it weren't...why wouldn't you send the mundane employee in the first place?  If you -need- magick to solve the problem, then it's a BIG problem...and big problems tend to have big consequences for failure.

If you start believing that magickers can be hired by ordinary people to do magickal things in order to help them with ordinary stuff, you completely unravel the basis for magickers being shunned, feared, and hated in the first place.  If everyone realizes that magickers are useful (and hell, they -might-...I don't think so, but the truth or falsity of this belief doesn't affect the outcome of this argument), it doesn't change the fact that they FEAR and HATE them.  It's like saying "Sure, that Saddam Hussein runs a -great- organization!  Look how he built up the Ba'ath Party!  20-some years in power, what a trooper!  Sure wish we had him to run our new corporate training program!"

This is how magickers should be reviled.  They aren't just ordinary blokes who can do some funny things.  They're feared like mad dogs that Tek keeps around for whatever reason.  If the Templarate decided to stop affording magickers protection, the magickers of Allanak would leave the city overnight, or they'd slowly be slaughtered in the streets, one by one.  Allanakis are fundamentally the same as Tulukis when it comes to magick:  they despise it.  I think the fact that they're constantly exposed to it would not make them any less fearful.  To continue the terrorist example, look at Israel.  Israelis have lived right next door to the most extreme terror groups in the world for how long, now?  Are Israelis any more acceptant of terrorism because of it? No--they probably hate it more than any other nation on the planet.  Allanakis forced to live nearby magickers probably feel the same way as most Israelis--given the chance, they'd drag every last terrorist/magicker out into the street and cut their throat without thinking twice.

[jhunter]

All I have to say is that I just simply disagree with alot of your take on it Synthesis. If we continue to go the route we're going, gemmed magickers are going to end up as unplayable as muls.

Is that what we want?

It needs to be loosened up a bit to keep more roleplaying opportunities open for that type of role and allow for more fun for the players of the gemmed.

So far, a gemmed mage is the most lonely and boring role I've ever played in this game. I've given it a few tries to see if it would be any different, put alot of effort into getting interaction, getting jobs and such. Unless things change a bit, I for one will be keeping my magicking limited to ungemmed.
Better to get -some- interaction with people who don't know you are a mage and at some point the fun of being hunted, than almost no interaction at all.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, muls are more playable than Magickers, truthfully. There is as much room for muls outside of the two city-states as there is for magickers in the single city-state.

Now, in all honesty, I don't have a problem with magickers being shunned and reviled all over the world, including Allanak, but until and unless we get sub-classes with the ability to function not just as a crafter but also a fighter in some regard, magickers will continue to get the shaft as PCs.

I understand that it is within the world's scope for magickers to be scary and feared and isolated, but within the scope of PCs relations, it is like openning the gith again, who would only interact through generally hostile events with the rest of the player base.

Now the Quarter in Allanak is nice ... there are a few features there which make it possible for a PC to live the way he should IG, but there needs to be some mainstreaming and colonization there, some fleshing out of the area with a tavern and a few more shops ... what might be even better, for the players at least, is some sort of event that would raise a magicker's status within society ... likely some sort of highly visible event in which a magicker saved a little child or a group of nobles or some other such thing ... something that pushed public perception towards the positive spectrum.

Perhaps magickers could be employed by the Militia as soldiers ... that would at least allow them to interact more IC, rather still feared or not.

[jhunter]

Perhaps magickers could be employed by the Militia as soldiers ... that would at least allow them to interact more IC, rather still feared or not.

Good idea. Weren't they used by Allanak during the war? Besides, what better way for them to keep tabs on mages. Employ them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A magicker is never going to be wearing a militia dustcloak and patrolling the city streets, looking for pickpockets to bust and I'm fine with that.

But unofficially using them as soldiers for the capacity of war is pretty much possible already.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know why they can't wear a Militia cloak ... but beyond that. I think the point is that Magickers need more avenues for attention.

There is nowhere near enough War for PCs to be happy.

[Intrepid]

I'm just glad to be playing a magicker when I do.  The supernatural roles
are meant to be more difficult to get started with and maintain over time,
but if you find an angle you can do it--whether it be covert or overt.

In the long run, I've found it to be easier to be a covert mage, but starting
as such is not easy.  On the other hand, overt mages have their perks
starting off, but in time they fall into a rut.

Disclaimer: I am referring to elementalists when I state the above.  You
sorcerers are on your own, and psionicists are a whole different method
of play.

[Cenghiz]

Synthesis, to be direct..
The staff mentioned gemmers may be hired. It's normal. It may draw funny looks but it's normal, right?
Then they can be.. Whatever you say doesn't change it.. Still...

1. Because gemmed magickers do not always get 500 leagues away from the city to chant. You see someone from element X or Y or Z dashing past you in an unbelieveable speed. You find magickally created resting places by different elements. Maybe you even find element Z filling himself with energy. There are VNPCs hunting in the desert, too. There are many times imms love showing this population by sending [edited to add] people to [/edited to add] someone casting too close to cities.

3. I know once guild hired three elementalists of different types. Enough argument?

4. Wading out an army of gith doesn't give you silk clothes, Nenyuk's rent, clear water, stuffed ginka and beautiful prostitudes. But we can safely say finding 10 pearls and managing to sell them to a jewelrymaker would possibly buy you a nice silk shawl in the least. Got it?

5. Of course they won't.. My all elementalists like forcing them away. They may be burglars or thieves. But they can.. That's the point.

6. If there's a big problem, often mundane dies first. When a defiler arrives, 4 PC soldiers die, and one krathi.

And to the last paraghraph: Leave being fearsome to magicker player owners. I'm sure we can keep on being fearsome more if we can earn enough to bribe a templar for future problems. Don't worry about it.
And Allanakis do not hate magickers. They simply fear. If you impose newbies they hate magickers in Allanak, they'll fill the desert with their corpses too soon. (Damn they already like attacking very powerful magickers upon sight and die.) They're aware of the power and fearful, just that.

[John]

I'm sorry for replying to an old quote, but I just had to.

If you start believing that magickers can be hired by ordinary people to do magickal things in order to help them with ordinary stuff, you completely unravel the basis for magickers being shunned, feared, and hated in the first place.  If everyone realizes that magickers are useful (and hell, they -might-...I don't think so, but the truth or falsity of this belief doesn't affect the outcome of this argument), it doesn't change the fact that they FEAR and HATE them.  It's like saying "Sure, that Saddam Hussein runs a -great- organization!  Look how he built up the Ba'ath Party!  20-some years in power, what a trooper!  Sure wish we had him to run our new corporate training program!"

You know what, I am beginning to think that perhaps magickers can be hired. And your Saddam Hussein example is helping me view it that way.

The Australian government is in a lot of hot water at the moment because they dealt with Saddam Hussein, while yelling at the top of their voice "Hussein is a dangerous person who should be deposed for freedom and god!" What they did was secretly dealt with him because it was profitable, up until the point where they invaded him.

I think the Australian government can help show people how to reconcile "everyone hates magickers, but they're useful" Are magickers dangerous? Sure. But you get to underpay them. Deal with them in very particular instances, perhaps mundane, perhaps magickal, and you will have a profitable business. Sure if you get caught out, you might lose some clients, so you'll have to do damage control.

If you disagree Synthesis, that's fine. Everyone has different opinions. I just had to respond to your example of Saddam Hussein, given Australian politics at the moment

[moab]

From help water elementalist:

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

[Agent_137]

yea, but we're discussing the viability of those documents themselves.


personally, I think magickers should be employed more because some legitimate IC case can be made for it, and I'm sure the poor gemmers are bored anyway. But at the same time, i think that doc right there and the others like it are old relics that want things to be taken too far, and should be changed to reflect immortal's opinions on the employability of magickers in the real zalanthas.