Blind Fightin' Skills

[Morgenes]

Please read the thread completely.  This has been answered before.  But to answer it again, it will show up in your skill list when you get it.  It is not a hidden skill.

[grog]

It's branched, I was beaten to the punch,  but yes it's already been answered

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

They are good at it because they face near-blindness more often.  So yes, if you go and stay in Red Storm and fight in the blinding sand more often, you will get better.  We will not give you a coded bonus to blind-fighting just because you chose Red Storm as your hometown.

The docs do not say 'Everyone in Red Storm is great at this!'  It just says they've practiced more at it.  It even explicitely states that others can learn the skill (when obviously you couldn't since the skill wasn't coded).  The docs are fine as is, and to reiterate, there will be no coded bonus or giving of this skill to someone just because they choose Red Storm as a hometown.

but this is not true, as it's not the way code works. Fighting in blinding sand more does not equal getting better at blind fighting. Skills don't branch off actually using the skill itself. So a red stormer can fight time and time again and not learn a damn thing about blind fighting until he's branched it. Which is what we asked for: already branched, low capped blind fighting. We didn't ask them to be "great at this!" We just want our characters who live in and are from red storm to actually see some sort of association with the documents.

[Ktavialt]

Please read the thread completely.  This has been answered before.  But to answer it again, it will show up in your skill list when you get it.  It is not a hidden skill.

Good stuff, I suppose this kind of fixes the whole issue with when I heard
IMM's irritated by the RP of Joebob Ranger, who has no monetary
problems whatsoever, on his off time decides going into the sandstorm to
hunt is a great way to spend Waleuk. This keeps him from thinking it is a
good idea, when really it shouldn't be done, unless he's seriously starving.

Anyways, on that note: Are NPC's fighting abilities affected by
sandstorms? If so, does the amount of drawback depend on the NPC in
question? For instance, a silt flyer would probably be very accustomed to
it and have absolutely no penalty, a scrab have a slight penalty, but a
gortok should run his little gortok-butt back into his den during a
sandstorm because he ain't used to it. That sort of thing true?

- Ktavialt

[jhunter]

I say give it to Red Storm warriors, rangers, and assassins to start. Replacing another of their normal starting skills as appropriate. Not sure -what- would be appropriate though.


That way, it balances it out a bit. People making pcs in Red Storm would have the ability from the start but would lack another one that folks from other places start with.

[spawnloser]

Yay!  Morgenes and I think alike!

[Galdun]

Meh, I'm kinda starting to get the gist of what Morgenes is saying.  Not to be a kiss ass but listen...

One would have to be an adept warrior before he could ever possibly hope to -fight-(literally face off against in a skillful manner) with something that he could hardly see.  To give a redstormer the ability to raise their blind fighting skill right off the bat would kind of assume that they've already had some serious combat training.  Remember, when we create our characters, its kind of dumb to play as though they're already grizzled warriors when the lack of coded skills simply won't back that kind of RP choice up.  

If you disagree so far its probably for the following reason:

- Hey Galdun, but you're forgetting that if the redstormer is constantly fighting in storms where visibility is scarce, he would develop his blind-fighting skills right off the bat.

I hate to break it to any of you who haven't played in redstorm...but if you go out fresh out of the hall of kings and try to square off with -any- of the creatures in that wretched place...you're gonna die.  Period.  Any Redstormer would have the common sense to know not to venture into the desert around the town without first having developed some platform upon which to build his skills.  If you think that someone should develop a skill labled 'blind fighting' by simply waving their sword timidly out infront of them during a sand storm as a silt horror wraps its tentacle around your ankle, you're crazy.  Thats not developing a skill at all, thats waving a weapon like an inept little kid who, let us not forget, IS BLINDED BY FIERCE, SKIN-SCATHING WINDS!

The way the code would work now, some smart Stormer gets himself a little training some how before traversing the wastes.  When he actually knows how to use a weapon, he could start conceiving of how one might fight when blinded by the sands.  He knows how to handle an opponent's approach when both the opponent and himself are not blinded, so he may be able to think of a way to counter an impending attack when he is blinded.  Ultimately, now that he is possessed of some skill with that sword of his, he can start thinkin' about how he'll have to use it when he hears the scuttling feet of a beetle during a windy night.

My conclusion...

An unskilled warrior, even one from redstorm, should have to have some training and experience before he could possibly gain any sort of abstracted skill like fighting without being able to see.  This ain't ya' daddy's desert, bitch.  Go learn how to hold a sword and then come swing it at me in the storm.

[Agent_137]

a fair explanation, I am assuaged. Thank you.

[Morgenes]

but this is not true, as it's not the way code works. Fighting in blinding sand more does not equal getting better at blind fighting. Skills don't branch off actually using the skill itself. So a red stormer can fight time and time again and not learn a damn thing about blind fighting until he's branched it. Which is what we asked for: already branched, low capped blind fighting. We didn't ask them to be "great at this!" We just want our characters who live in and are from red storm to actually see some sort of association with the documents.

Read the docs again, they do not say 'every Red Storm warrior is excellent at blind fighting'.  

that some fighters who call the village home have developed techniques for 'fighting blind'

Galdun's explanation is an excellent one.  Good points.

[Agent_137]

Read the docs again, they do not say 'every Red Storm warrior is excellent at blind fighting'.  

that some fighters who call the village home have developed techniques for 'fighting blind'

Galdun's explanation is an excellent one.  Good points.

I never said I wanted every red storm warrior to be excellent at blind fighting. A low start skill and a low cap hardly makes some one "excellent at blind fighting." I thought I made it clear I didn't want some huge bonus to all stormers.

And yes, his explanation is excellent.

[spawnloser]

So accept it, Agent.  What people are asking for is for EVERY Stormer to get blindfighting, which is unrealistic.  Only those practiced Stormers should have it...and that means branching.

[mansa]

Dearest Buddy Spawnloser,

In your recent post, you said, and I quote,

So accept it, Agent.  What people are asking for is for EVERY Stormer to get blindfighting, which is unrealistic.  Only those practiced Stormers should have it...and that means branching.

You ask our fellow gamer Agent_137 to 'accept it' as the explaination.  I have come to believe that Agent_137 has already accepted it as the valid explaination as to why there will be no bonuses given to the 'blind fighting skill' for people who pick Red Storm Village as their starting location.  I also believe that Agent_137 will tolerate the decision made, and not argue for giving bonuses to the start location anymore, but still thinks to himself that it would be better for the game overall.  In my post, I will try and clear it up.

In Agent_137's previous post to yours, he states, and I quote,

I never said I wanted every red storm warrior to be excellent at blind fighting. A low start skill and a low cap hardly makes some one "excellent at blind fighting." I thought I made it clear I didn't want some huge bonus to all stormers.

And yes, his explanation is excellent.

Agent_137 says that he was assuaged with what Galdun said here.  Now, not many people (myself included) know what assuaged means, so looking it up at Dictionary.com gives the result of: "To make (something burdensome or painful) less intense or severe: assuage her grief. See Synonyms at relieve."  In other words, it means that he tolerates the counterpoint and has stopped fighting.  Agent_137 also wrote more information to clear up his original point, as to remove any false thoughts as to the reasons behind the original inquiry and protest to have the skill included to those beginners.

My second point has to do with tolerance.  This has more to do with my culture and society more than the main idea of this thread, but I'd like to mention it anyways.  Tolerance does not mean full agreement and acceptance.  I can tolerate believing in evolution, and I can tolerate speed limits, and I can tolerate a late charge on my credit card, but I do not fully agree with it.  If Tolerance meant fully agreeing with a subject without fault, then it is no longer Tolerance but Agreement.  You can't tolerate something you agree with.

Now, I've been saying the same sentence again and again, because it's hard to portray what I mean in written text.  I will try and use another example from Dictionary.Com.

1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
2. Leeway for variation from a standard.

I hope that helps clear up more information.  Perhaps I should say that I tolerate anal sex, but because I tolerate it, doesn't mean that I'll be having anal sex.

Hopefully this post has cleared everyone's mind a little bit, and will promote tolerance to the players of the Board, and promote creativity and differences of opinion to create a wonderful mix of everything good.

[Larrath]

I'm sad that Red Stormers aren't given a bonus to this skill.
This was a great opportunity to support the vastly underused fighting style documentation and it was ignored.  I just hope that we won't have more things like this seep into other helpfiles and documents.

Because their fighting nature is so similar to some Krathi elementals, some warriors have been given access to basic cantrips and spells that draw on Suk-Krath.

Hey, it says some, and it's in the past!  I bet that happened once so it won't be a lie and yeah, let's keep it in the documents.

Let's also write that some templars harbor a deep secret hatred for their God-King and want nothing more than to betray him and destroy their city-state.  Hey, I bet a couple of templars did that.

This makes the fighting style document confusing and irrelevant, and I really don't like that.  Documents give an impression, and people often build characters around these impressions.  My impression of a Vivaduan is someone who, on some level, has a psychological connection to the 'nature' of Vivadu which is why most Vivaduans are, on average, much calmer than Krathi who have a psychological connection to Suk-Krath.

Documents are there to help, they're not supposed to be like cheap two-bit tricks in a shady legal contract where the super-fine print says 'not' and 'maybe'.  If no characters from Red Storm are given a bonus to blind-fighting--which doesn't seem at all unbalanced by any stretch of the imagination--then not modifying the document is, in my opinion, extremely rude.  We use these documents, you know.

Lastly, about Red Storm PCs not being able to go out to the desert and fight because the silt horrors would destroy them - please explain Red Storm rangers and explain to me why Red Storm burglars have less combat experience than Red Storm warriors if nobody in there is able to fight considering the nasties around there and the skill level that they start in.

Give a bonus or change the documents.  Fine print is the LAST thing we need in these - not enough people use that document as it is.  Seriously, how many Tulukis out there use shields?  Shield-use should be the norm and duel wield the rare exception, not the opposite.

[jhunter]

I do think that sometimes people have a habit of going into a line of thought like:

Stick with the docs...do what the docs say. The documentation is the be all end all (so long as it's of negative or restrictive impact on your character)....unless of course there's something the docs say that would be of benefit to your character, in that case please ignore the docs.

Either make all the documentation fit codewise what's in the gameworld or vice versa IMO.

By not having them match up as much as possible it really does sort of weaken the strength of the documentation.

Give a bonus or change the documents. Fine print is the LAST thing we need in these - not enough people use that document as it is. Seriously, how many Tulukis out there use shields? Shield-use should be the norm and duel wield the rare exception, not the opposite.

I completely agree with this.

[Ghost]

Well, yeah, valid points on both sides.  For me, I would not want to see every character in Red Storm to have blind-fighting in their skill list.  That would be a little bit too much I guess.  But I think, since due to their starting location, A Red Stormer would have been into the little to no visibility than most of non-Red Stormers.  Due to the unpredictability of the storms around there, a ranger would find himself often in a sandstorm and maybe he would have to defend himself when he tries to find his way back to the city.  Or a warrior would have to defend himself from a fight in the alleys with poor visibility.  So I would assume they would have an idea, or familiarity of what to do when their sight is not reliable anymore.  So to me, it would be reasonable for a Red Stormer to have a low Blind fighting (Hypothetical level, lets say 10%.. or 20%.. or whatever) at start which would not appear in the skill list at start, so no chance of making it better till branching it.

I think this would be reasonable, because it would make sense with the documents.  And it would not be a too much addition to the Red Storm starters.

[mansa]

How much of an advantage will people get when they have the skill?  I think that's the question that needs to be asked and settled.

How often will the skill be in use?

I don't believe this skill is something like disarm, or backstab.  This is something like Parry.  And how many guilds get/branch parry?  More than three.

[Twilight]

Here's my understanding of how things work, based on imm posts on this board, my own play experience and a little inference.

Starting locations can provide bonuses.  My understanding of how this works is that it is either a boost to the starting level of a skill you have (or) it could add the skill at a set level if you don't normally start with it (ie it will put it onto your skill list).

Once a skill is on your skill list, there are two things that can happen.  Either your guild does not get the skill, in which case it stays the same level (or perhaps can have a low max, not completely clear on this and I think it can differ depending on how exactly it was added).  Or your guild does get the skill (whether starting or branched) and the skill can progress up to the normal max for your class from the point at which it appears on your skill list.

There is no giving something like blind fighting to a warrior with a low skill cap until they would normally branch it.  If blind fighting is on their skill list, for whatever reason, without manual imm intervention the max cap on that skill would be the max cap for a warrior with that skill who had branched it...

Which makes for a damn good reason not to give it as a starting bonus to Red Stormers.

[Ghost]

By the way, I almost forgot....



Thanks Morgenes, for your time and effort to add something like this to the game.  It is very much appreciated.

[Agent_137]

Yes, while driving down the road today, i thought we might have come off rude and unappreciative to Morgenes, who spent some time putting in a skill for us, and the first thing we say is "but we wanted it -THIS- way."

Which is not the case at all. Thank you for the code addition, period. No ifs ands or buts attached. Our request for the red storm bonus shouldn't be seen as criticism, but a request from an already grateful player base.

Also, thank you, Mansa, for making clear my feelings on this subject. I'm glad you got to it first, I'm sure I would have posted something more inflammatory along the lines of OMGreadplskthx.

And I blame my 7th grade english teacher for my large vocabulary. All those Vocabular Workshop books due every damn week.

[Larrath]

Yeah, really.
Thanks a LOT for this addition, Morgenes.  Seriously.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They are good at it because they face near-blindness more often.  So yes, if you go and stay in Red Storm and fight in the blinding sand more often, you will get better.  We will not give you a coded bonus to blind-fighting just because you chose Red Storm as your hometown.

The docs do not say 'Everyone in Red Storm is great at this!'  It just says they've practiced more at it.  It even explicitely states that others can learn the skill (when obviously you couldn't since the skill wasn't coded).  The docs are fine as is, and to reiterate, there will be no coded bonus or giving of this skill to someone just because they choose Red Storm as a hometown.

Well, since short of constantly fighting magickers, living in Red Storm is probably the only way to improve your blind fighting ability, I think I can understand the rationale.

Thank you Morgenes, for implimenting this code, and especially for expanding upon your initial uncapitalized sentance fragment.