Newbs, who are they and what are they thinking?!?!

[Thunder Lord]

Why are they new? And why do many newbies stay newbies for a very long time? Why do they constantly come up with stupid ideas and put them on the GDB? Why do they make silly polls and know-it-all responces for things they know nothing about? Why don't they read the documentation?
Why do newbies act the way they do?

First lets go over a few things. Armageddon, is a game without images. It is a TEXT BASED game. It is a PERMA DEATH game. It is a RP ENFORCED game.

Lets list that again.
TEXT BASED
PERMA DEATH
RP ENFORCED

As far as I can tell out of the thousands of games out there 99.99% DO NOT have everything on that list.

Generally the average gamer. 99% of the population thinks one of three things:
Text Based is stupid because why would anyone play text based when there is -VIDEO- games and pritty MMOs?
Perma Death is stupid because you loose ALL that hard work if you make a silly mistake.
RP enforced is stupid because.... RP... is stupid.

Now, your average every day newb on armageddon KNOWS arm is text based, they KNOW arm has perma death, and they KNOW arm is RP enforced AND THEY ARE TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY ANYWAY!What heros! What risk takers! THey are trying to learn a hard ass game that no body likes except for a small handful.

That makes them unique, and wonderful, and something to nuture and take care of. Not some one to trick into killing and screwing over. Not some one to harass and get impatient with. We need to teach them with a positive point of view not one built off of punishment! ANd that is why many newbs stay newbs for a very long time! Teach them RP, don't force them to twink out by by being so cruel and harsh just because they are newbs.

The only thing a newb needs to learn the game is good examples of RP, and lots of understanding.

Why do they constantly come up with stupid ideas and put them on the GDB?
A newbie does not know everything about the game, so any idea they come up with might be a little, silly at times. However, this is a good thing!
1: they like the game enough to make suggestions.
2: they are thinking out of the box! And just such a thing is needed!
3: When you look at newbie suggestions you are looking at the type of thing that is attractive to NEW PLAYERS. They don't have the tainted point of view like us vets. RESPECT the newbies ideas!

They are genuine and come with good intention. Please do not shoot it down harshly in a rude flame. Just explain why it won't work, compliment him/her on the good idea. And get on with your life.

Why do they make silly polls and know-it-all responces for things they know nothing about?
Newbies, are doing the right thing by acting that way. They are mimicking the vets, trying to fit in, trying to get into the arm community and enjoy the game. And that mimicking is what makes newbs into great RPers. As i said, they learn by example. WHen you go flaming newbs, for silly posts, for know it all responces, you are discouraging them! Instead incourage them to post more! DOn't tell them to stop being stupid, take care of them instead!

WHy don't newbies read the documentation?
Pure and simple: They do. They read it all and they read it a lot. However it is A LOT of information. Something you need to go through three or four times to grasp. And then, once you get ingame it is hard to put together.

Don't expect newbs to learn complex cultures and customs and a complex emote and syntax system in a very short time in a text based game that is permadeath with RP enforcement. Don't think they havent read any documentation because they didn't understand something. It is -hard- for newbies and don't ever forget that. Remember without the documentation, they probably wouldent even be making a character. It is probably the documentation that got them to play the game in the first place. Be TOLERANT of thier lack of knowledge and teach them instead of scold them.

So why do newbies act the way they do? It is the players fault mostly. The players who constantly sabotage the newbies efforts.  Before you go out attacking newbs and making thier life harder because they are newbies, realise they are unique people willing to play an unorthodox game. Realise that  many of them quit BECAUSE players are too mean and unhelpful. Too many newbies I see quit arm because it is too complicated or too stressful or too harsh. It -isnt- to harsh if you understand the syntax, the documentation, and the culture. They just don't understand yet.

As for the Immortals: Most of you do a -wonderful- job at being tolerant of them. You grace them with documentation that not only gets them interested enough to play the game but also helps them learn and understand it as well. However some of you, I won't use names, could sometimes be discouraging.

But the #2 way immortals could help newbs (After the documentation) is to compliment them when they use good RP. Compliment them as much as possible. You compliment them, they will repeat what they were doing good. Punnishing them and scolding them with emails of what they shouldent do just makes them feel guilty and stressed out as if all thier efforts were not enough. They will avoid doing the problem again but then find another way to piss you guys off. THey need to be told they are doing something right! THey NEED it BADLY. And the PLAYERS can't tell them that due to the RULES of the game. Only -you- can help them in that department.

Anyway, if we want more players in arm. If we want less twinkage and more dynamic and fun RP, then we NEED to be tolerant of newbies. We need to HELP them not HURT them. They are the future of Armageddon, and the reason Armageddon exists.

ALways remember how it was like when you were a newbie.

May my post not get torn apart in flames with quotes of misinterpreted statements and arguments. Be nice, behave. And Thank you very much for listening. I hope this really helps my poor little newbies who quit Armageddon for the above reasons.

[LucidApex]

I support  the above completely. As a matter of fact, a good friend of mine did quit armageddon because the environment is so harsh. Now the game world, it is supposed to be harsh, that is understandable, but that doesn't necessarily have to translate over into the GDB. It really isn't fair to the people who come in with no real experience to speak of to be shot down. We have all been new in something, maybe a new school, a new job, or even just meeting someone new (i.e. a significant other's parents, a new group of friends, a relative). Just remember how you may have felt in this situation. Just remember that new people are the basis for any group's success and continuation. Don't walk on eggshells, but don't toss the habenero powder in the eyes either. Just...be civil.

my two cents.


-Lucid Apex

[jhunter]

Shut the fuck up....stupid newb.














J/K

Good post and you are right. I will admit that I'm guilty of biting the heads off of newbies from time to time. I try not to though and I'm getting better save for a lapse here and there.

[UnderSeven]

Dude, that's just how it is in the game.  Most people when they see an obvious newb will try to help them, but you can't go too far.  For instance, established players will sometimes ACT like newbs to get a little extra assistance in game.  So it has it's drawbacks.

I know it sucks to be a newb, it took me about three characters and about four months to actually get into this game and that was many years back.  Plus my newb was sunjarown3d.

I don't think in general this is a problem so much, but it's nice to have helpers around and I think arm is tons more accessable these days then it ever was when I started.. Except back then you could get away with lower quality rp.

[Larrath]

Note: though this post features quotes from UnderSeven, this post is not directed to anyone in particular.  I only picked UnderSeven's quotes because they were in this thread and got my post flowing and all.

For instance, established players will sometimes ACT like newbs to get a little extra assistance in game.

If I saw an experienced player pretending to be a new player in order to gain IC benefits, get away with something or deflect suspicion that he's a magicker, I would consider emailing a complaint against them.

I don't think in general this is a problem so much, but it's nice to have helpers around and I think arm is tons more accessable these days then it ever was when I started.. Except back then you could get away with lower quality rp.

This is a problem.  Most newbies usually don't get to talk to me, but I've talked to a couple of newbies that were seriously intimidated by the OOC atmosphere.

I think that people just look at newbies incorrectly, at least to a degree.  When you see a bumbling newbie trying to RP in a tavern and make friends or get a job as an aide, you should realize that with the proper help, this same newbie could make one hell of a political character in six months and one hell of a noble in a year or two.
When you see some twink trying to get a party to hunt scrabs (or whatever), maybe he'll turn into some menacing PKiller.  Or maybe he'll turn into one of those well-played raiders that we all want so much, or join the Byn/some other clan and make a Sergeant and take care of the clan.

I know that the game is harsh and realistic and that nobody likes breaking their character to help a new player, but this is also a game, and our game only gets better as we get more experienced players in it.

One time not too long ago, I was speaking to a terrified, brand new player.  They were intimidated by the emote code and didn't know many basic commands, and it took me about half an hour until I could get them to go to a tavern, sit down and try to interact.  There were three or four PCs in there - two nobles sitting away and some hunter or whatever at the bar, and maybe some other people passing through.  Nobody paid the newbie any attention whatsoever - they spoke to the hunter and found no reply.  They looked at people and emoted and everyone was silent.  They started walking towards the nobles wanting to sit with them (as they were in the middle of animated banter) and were still completely ignored for some twenty minutes.
I don't know if that newbie is still playing here, and they looked pretty promising.

Ignoring newbies, taking advantage of newbies' inexperience to offer unrealistic things in order to kill them or just PKing them because it's easy is not good for the MUD.

In conclusion, if you ignore or take advantage of newbies, don't ever be  upset that there aren't enough people in your clan, your tribe, your city, the T'zai Byn, any Merchant House as a merchant/family, any noble aides for you to choose from or whatever else.  When you simply take advantage of a newbie without trying to teach them or at least make sure they have some fun or understand what is happening, you are taking one player from Arm and making him go somewhere else.

How many people did you chase away?
*ep machete (but points it away from UnderSeven)*

[TLo]

to make a distinction of what I was getting at:
Don't target newbies ICly because they are easy prey.
HELP newbies OOCly by being nice.
help newbies ICly by giving a good example of RP.

If a newbie is robbing you or trying to kill you, don't spare them to be nice to a newb. If thier PC deserves to die, let them die. Keep with the RP but don't make an active effort because they are newbies.

Only a newbie you could trick into going into the rinth.
Only a newbie you could trick to going into a locked appartment with a stranger.
Just stop targeting newbies because they are newbies.
It drives me nuts when I see some one who notices a PC is a newb and begins to try and get them killed so they can collect the 800 coins that the newb hasnt deposited yet.

[Ktavialt]

Only a newbie you could trick to going into a locked appartment with a stranger.

Uhm not only a newbie *sighs* twice. Two of my last six characters went
that way.

Sigh,
Ktavialt

[MBlack]

Some newbies don't get the "rp enforced" part. Some newbies will apply some other kind of game's "rp enforced" to Arm. Some newbies don't read the docs. Some do, and don't take them seriously. Some do, take them seriously, but don't care or try to play their own way because they think their way is better. Newbies aren't all created equal. Some suck. Some are great. Some aren't great but eager to learn.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Here-here! Within my first five minutes IG I was sold a flint knife for 120 coins and a sandcloth loincloth for 60. I was also probably the only newb hired to kill a red robe within 10 minutes.

But the #2 way immortals could help newbs (After the documentation) is to compliment them when they use good RP. Compliment them as much as possible. You compliment them, they will repeat what they were doing good.

Couldn't agree more. Back when I was but an iddy-biddy newb, in my first week or two, an imm emailed me saying s/he liked the use of my thought command because it let him/her know what motivated my character. To this day I'm a thought whore. I don't know how much is normal, but sometimes I'll put out thought commands for obvious stuff that doesn't need to be written.

ie: n, n, think Darn, missed my turn. s, w

That being said, I think the main reason people bait newbs is because their characters seem retarded, drunk, or high. Everyone uses this to justify the killing/ripping off of a character. It seems logical, but I think there's some real world morality issues you need to think of here.

If newbs are indead retarded/drunk/high:
a) Would you sell a shitty 1991 Cheverlet Corsica with 200,000 miles on it, a bad knock in the engine, and nearly 40% body rust to a retarded person for $2,000 just because they'd go with it? Jerry Seinfield might, but you surely wouldn't (I hope)

b) If there was a drunken prostitute falling all over you at the bar, would you invite her back to your place, then murder her? (For some odd reason, if my buddy Mike ends up playing Armageddon, he ends up playing a newb prostitute lady saying "Sucky Sucky five dolla'. Good thing he doesn't play often, but he's been killed several times for this)

If you were a rinthi, you might've answered 'yes', but other than that you realistically should've probably said 'no.'  

It's a sad, sad state of affairs. At the most, people should be trying to get newbs to do funny things, such as trying to get the retarded kid in gym class to say "Would you like a cookie?" and not killing them for being easy targets.

I know it's kind un-Armageddonish and all, but I think imms should be harsh on 'newb-baiters'. Most of this behavior seems out of place anyhow. Like when your normally law-abiding obsidian miner invites a newb out, waits for him to foolishly chip away all his stamina, then kills him. One moment he's an indiginous, hard working forager, next he's a cold blooded killer for a few sids and a corpse with poor equipment. I think when the imms see this, they should negative note it, or email the player telling them to stop being a dick. I realise what a sensative situation it is, but newb baiters are the skum ot the earth. Imagine how much larger our player base would be if some newbs weren't prayed upon to the point they'd given up.

[Olgaris]

So everybody knows, when we see people purposesly killing newbies the following happens:

1) Note goes on their account & player is e-mailed.
2) If behavior persists, usually they get one more warning before being banned.
3) If they come back after being banned for a probation period, and they continue their behavior, they are banned permanently.

I've also noticed that the only people who seem to target newbies are themselves newbies. Often it'll be someone who just understands the coded combat aspect of the game enough to use it for evil instead of good. Beside the odd exception that likely exists, but I have yet to see, anybody who has been playing Armageddon for a year or more knows better than to screw with newbies. It's those players who come from a H&S background and have been playing 3 weeks to 6 months, who either learn better real quick, or get banned. Unfortunately sometimes they turn away a few new players in the process of us trying to get them to smarten up.  :?

[Packersfan]

I personally feel people have no right to single out newbies for bad rp. As long as Templars spar commoners, Nobles lose auctions to commoners from the opposite city state( and accept it) and people don't understand that woman are equal to men ig I don't want to hear discussions such as this.

edited to add: By "this" I mean people trashing on newbies.

[TLo]

As long as Templars spar commoners, Nobles lose auctions to commoners from the opposite city state( and accept it) and people don't understand that woman are equal to men ig I don't want to hear discussions such as this.

edited to add: By "this" I mean people trashing on newbies.

That is like complaining about how you broke a finger nail durring a bomb scare. What are little problems against a much larger one? Do you have any idea how many of my newbs eventually quit arm? Or rather, let me rephrase, only one of my newbs still plays arm. The rest, quit. All of my friends who tried to play arm, quit. Why? Do I need to sound redundant?

What does nobles loosing auctions from commoners, and the male to female equality mean if we scare off half the newbs! Wanna know why Armageddon isn't rated #1? Wanna know why we don't have more people playing arm? Because every time some one new tries, they quit. Either by people being too mean OOCly, or people targeting them ICly. No sane person is going to bother feeling -more- stressed trying to learn a -game-.

I side with most IMMs and the newbs, as far as I can tell from the experienced players and psudoexperienced players. Many, are just way too selfish to help a newb. I can remember leader PCs avoiding hiring newbs because they were newbs. Or templars ripping newbs a new one because they didin't figure out or remeber the syntax to lower thier hood in two seconds. We all have been mean to a newb at some point, I have been mean once or twice in the past. But it needs to stop.

[Marauder Moe]

I was a new player once.  I didn't quit.   :roll:

I have been mean to new players.  It was in-character for me to do so.  That's how the documents say the game works.  That's how I expected to be treated when I joined.  In fact, people were far nicer than I expected for the most part (though I have yet to play a non-human).

I don't think that veteran players being OOCly mean or elitist is the problem either.  I don't think there is a problem.  To put it bluntly, this game isn't for everyone.  It's not for people who don't like to read or write properly.  It's not for people who can't figure some things out on their own.  It's not for people who refuse to read documentation.  It's not for the superfans of tree-hugging Tolkien elves or Harry Potter wizardry.  It's not for people who can't get over losing 300 coins or an 10+ day character.  It's not for people who aren't willing spend a real life year earning their first point of karma.

The reason we're not ranked #1 anywhere isn't because we drive people away, it's because this isn't an easy mud.

[Hot_Dancer]

You sure about the Harry Potter wizardry part?

Hot_Dancer

[Bestatte]

Arm is also a niche market within a niche market. The vast majority of mudders are -not- interested in RPIs. For those who are, there are three which have a history of stabiity and success: Arm, Harshlands, and Shadows of Isildur. Arm, being based in part on Dune and on the Dark Sun D&D campaign, isn't likely to attract all that many people, by virtue of its theme and its genre.

It will never be #1, because it will never be a massively-multiplayer game. Fortunetely, that's a good thing. Because if it ever became an MMORPG, it would cease to be the game this small niche of people have found for themselves, and they would have only 2 options left, one of which is a Tolkein game and not even remotely similar to the Arm theme.

[Aldiel]

Nice post Thunder Lord.  It's about time someone made it.  I agree with you, and I think so do all the other helpers.

[Packersfan]

Tlo: I am confused, are you saying I said something wrong? I thought I made it clear that I hate it when people jump down a newb's throat. If I didn't, then that is my two cents in a nutshell.

[Angela Christine]

Nobles lose auctions to commoners from the opposite city state( and accept it) .

Eh?  I don't get this one.  It isn't a matter of winning or losing.  You see something you'd like to have.  You are willing to pay up to 1000 sid for it. Any more than that and it just isn't a good deal, especially if you could have a similar item custom made for less than that (though you wouldn't get it instantly that way).  Let the stupid barbarian pay through the nose, he is the one losing, not you.  Bidding away your entire stipend on a trinket isn't winning, the only one who wins then is the greedy merchant.


Anyway, back to newbies.  Newbie is a huge and diverse category.  The only thing newbies have in common is that they have recently started playing here.  It isn't like there is an entrance exam.  Some of them are going to be jerks, griefers and twinks.  That doesn't mean they all are.


Angela Christine

[Jherlen]

I personally feel people have no right to single out newbies for bad rp. As long as Templars spar commoners, Nobles lose auctions to commoners from the opposite city state( and accept it)...

I'm not sure I see either of these as bad...

:arrow: A noble sparring a commoner is bad. It leaves them open to assassination and puts the commoner on equal footing with the noble. A templar sparring a commoner isn't as bad, because they both know if the templar ever feels like it, he can call on his Sorc-King of choice's holy powers and turn the commoner into a pillar of ash. Even if a commoner has better swordplay there's no question of who is still on top.

:arrow: AC already made the point that just because you don't like who is bidding against you, or they have lower station than you do, it doesn't mean you need to throw all your money away so you beat them. Even if you are a noble.

But I'm going to derail this thread too. So back to new players.

I think the best thing we as experienced players can do is to get newbies involved. Show them where the bar is, show them where the bazaar is, how to find water, who to talk to about a job, how to hunt without dying. Seemingly trivial things like those can go a long way towards keeping new players around. Some may "get it" faster than others, and the fact is that Armageddon isn't for everyone and we're never going to be the #1 mud in existance. Our niche is too narrow for that. We already are one of the premier RPI muds and should continue to strive to be so, and expand our playerbase and the RPI niche in the process.

[Anonymous]

The reason we're not ranked #1 anywhere isn't because we drive people away, it's because this isn't an easy mud.

It will never be #1, because it will never be a massively-multiplayer game.

We certainly try and would like to be #1, check out the following links: Wanna be #1? Keep people from quiting.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17670&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17446&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16766&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15372&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17237&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12188&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10953&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9792&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11502&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9425&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9654&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6488&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9316&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8194&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7688&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7201&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6304&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6051&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5630&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4563&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2672&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3395&highlight=vote
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2193&highlight=vote

[Larrath]

Arm isn't for everyone.  Okay.
A lot of mudders won't be interested in Arm, won't read the documents, and won't be able to have fun here.  Right-o.
Many newbies would just end up leaving or act twinky.  Yep.

Are those facts an excuse to mistreat a new player?  For heaven's sake!  Yes, I realize that most people who lure newbies to PK are semi-newbie twinks themselves.  But they're not the only people doing it, and mistreating a new player extends to more than just killing them.

When you're sitting in a tavern and talking to someone and you see a new player struggling with the game and trying to interact with you, is it SO difficult to actually respond to them instead of ignoring and waiting for them to go away?  Yes, some of the things a new player does need to be ignored - sometimes for the newbie's sake and sometimes for realism's sake.  But when a new player is walking to your character's table and you won't even glance at them?
Don't give me that bullshit that Arm is hard and not for everyone.  Most of the people who don't fit in Arm already get filtered out when they see they have to apply for a character and wait 24 hours.  I don't believe any single talented roleplayer would stay in Arm for one week if everyone around only abused him for newbie coins or ignored him.

I, for one, would have probably left Armageddon if my first 'real' character hadn't met with Vanir of the T'zai Byn because everyone else either ignored my character or treated my character like shit.  Was my character a half-elf?  You bet.  Did I know why people treated my character like that?  Not a chance.  In spite of Vanir, I still kamikazed that character in the end, and then came my Borsail aide.

Bottom line, if not for Vanir, Kishime Fale and Kavinny Borsail, I doubt I'd have stuck around.  It's not that Vanir, Kishime and Kavinny did such incredible things - but they gave me interaction and didn't ignore my character.

Even if I'm not the best player around, I think that I fit in pretty well in Arm, so don't go telling me that an Arm-worthy player would stick around even if everyone treated him like crap and ignored him.

When you see a new player, help out.  Look at them, talk to them, shove them around, make them buy you a drink because they pissed you off, make fun of them, talk to them about some strange rumor, do something.  Don't be an elitist prick.

[Adhira]

When I was a newbie to Armageddon I did the following:

- I logged in to Allanak and bought a new outfit.
- I went to a tavern and sat at the bar
- I hesitantly nodded to people sitting there, or said hello, or somesuch.

The result was that my pc was ignored. Most likely IC for the other characters she was trying to talk to. So, I went to a different bar, sat down, and was ignored. Several logins later, several more Hellos, lots more being ignored I decided I had enough. I stopped logging in.

One day, totally bored, I decided that if I couldn't RP on this mud because I couldn't get anyone to interact with me, then maybe I could log in and explore and kill things till I died. To that end I logged in, bought a sword, and merrily started making my way to the gates to go be a ranger, Yar!

Suddenly, as I'm walking someone started following me, spoke to me. Next thing I know my pc is in a conversation. I didn't go out the gates that day. In fact, that pc ended up living for another 9 months before I stored her.  

If someone hadn't taken pity on a newbie and gone out of their way to speak to me and involve me I'm pretty certain I would have died 5 minutes after leaving the gate and never returned to Armageddon again.

Remember the newbie you, by all means, stay true to your character, but if you can find a way to throw a newbie a few crumbs you might just be getting someone addicted to Armageddon. That has to be good for us all.

[Tuannon]

Adhira hacked my account!

Err seriously though.. SERIOUSLY folks.. almost the same thing happended for me. I have always played cautious, cards-close-to-the-chest types in my time on Arm, and I had similar problems with interaction. In fact I still do.

At least after having a 60 day first 'effort' I know how to provoke a conversation or whatever when required for my second 'effot'. I think in another couple of characters time I will be slick and so on with the engaging folks in coherent and directed RP.

[Packersfan]

[

:arrow: A noble sparring a commoner is bad. It leaves them open to assassination and puts the commoner on equal footing with the noble. A templar sparring a commoner isn't as bad, because they both know if the templar ever feels like it, he can call on his Sorc-King of choice's holy powers and turn the commoner into a pillar of ash. Even if a commoner has better swordplay there's no question of who is still on top.
.

A Commoner sparring a Templar is completely innapropriate. Consult the docs for further information.

[Tuannon]

Well.. a commoner sparring a templar consists of said commoner being worked over by the templar's men (or women) and then perhaps disarmed by the same men (or women) and lastly possibly run through or decapitated.. coup de grace style.. by the templar. And only IF that templar is particularly bellicose.

That is about the only 'sparring' I could think of a templar doing with a commoner.

(( edit for apostrophe error and some gender blurring ))

[Ktavialt]

Remember the newbie you, by all means, stay true to your character, but if you can find a way to throw a newbie a few crumbs you might just be getting someone addicted to Armageddon. That has to be good for us all.

Word.

[Cale_Knight]

Newbies should start with a full waterskin, five or six travel cakes, and all their newbie money in the bank.

I bet that'd cut down newbie fatalities by at least half.

[*grumble*]

TRAVEL CAKES!?!

I been playing for a while now and still don't know if they are makeable when you first start out or the stupid syntax for them!!!

*grumbles loudly about travel cakes as he stumbles away from the post*

[Cale_Knight]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

[Hymwen]

Getting new players involved is a great thing. We should all do it, and the reason I stayed was due to a handful of players who helped me out at first. They probably know who they are

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that while you should help new players, keep it small. Take them on a guided tour around town, show them how to make travel cakes, tell them to stay the hell away from templars and neckers, and give them a link to the helpers list. Things like that. Be careful about getting them too involved, both because it's all so very confusing to a new player, but also because they usually don't know if they'll stick around. I knew I didn't, I kinda just poked my head in one day to see what it was all about, and when I was told to find a job I was intimidated because I knew that it meant commitment and having to show up at certain times. As a new player, you don't know right away if you'll want to put that much time into this. So when someone comes strolling out of the Gaj wearing his simple sandcloth attire, don't instantly enroll them with the Byn or hire them to some tight schedule because they need to find their bearings, learn how to maneuver, and decide whether or not they want to stay before they can make a choice like that.

[Larrath]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

That's actually not true.  Sometimes when you craft and fail the crafting roll, you're still given an object (or a few).  This is often the case with jewelry, where you can break the gem but still keep the bone you were trying to set it into.
This is also the case here - on a practical level, it's not possible to fail the attempt.  But get a PC with a good cooking skill make travel cakes and you'll see a difference.

[Anonymous]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

Why do I see this as a missed opportunity to interact with someone in game?

say Hey, whatcha got there?  You make that yourself?

[Cale_Knight]

Why do I see this as a missed opportunity to interact with someone in game?

say Hey, whatcha got there?  You make that yourself?

Any such interaction with a newbie who doesn't know how to make travel cakes is inevitbly going to devolve into OOCly explaining what I just did.

It's just a syntax issue. Nobody who survives 20 years as a commoner on Zalanthas is going to do so without learning that flour+water=food.

[Anonymous]

Any such interaction with a newbie who doesn't know how to make travel cakes is inevitbly going to devolve into OOCly explaining what I just did.

It's just a syntax issue. Nobody who survives 20 years as a commoner on Zalanthas is going to do so without learning that flour+water=food.

It's not the point.  I'm not some asshole who wants even the most minute of details kept from the plebs.  It has more to do with people need all the conversation starters they can get in this game.  I'm as guilty as anyone else of sitting in a tavern with 5 PCs having an emote-off because nobody can think of a damn thing to say.

Allanak is a big city, maybe that 20 year old commoner doesn't know where to get flour.  Moreover if it's in Allanak if they asked around someone would have taken the newbie into the Gaj's firepit and show them how to emote out cooking with the clay ovens in the firepit's room desc.

I'll never get over this notion that telling a new player precisely how to do something out of game is as helpful as giving them ways to go about getting what they in game.  I've been there and I was better off being told to ask around for how to get a merchant's token than just being given the answer.

[Cale_Knight]

Hell, I'll go a step further and say the travel cake "recipe" should be in the help file for the cooking skill.

Every time I see "find out IC" given as the answer for a very newbie question that's more an issue of syntax or sheer unfamiliarity with the game system, I think to myself that we're risking losing a player.

[Cenghiz]

In my life in ARM, I've met many "Find out IC."ers. Not people using it accurately I mean. Something like...

The noob says, out of character:
"I fought a scrab and my hp does not increase. Does anyone know how I can make it rise? There are elixirs of life?"
>ooc 'Help health' will gi
The bitch says, out of character:
"Find out IC."

Won't you all just shut up instead? Give the name of a helpfile, the helper list's web adress, do anything but please do not go "Find out IC." about the OOC topics.

[bloodfromstone]

I have to chime in just to say that "Find out IC" is about the most frustrating and, more often than not, inappropriate response one can give. It's given constantly, by players and staff alike. Is it really so hard to type out a unique sentence on the matter that will at least give the person the impression your read their question?

Let's look at two examples:
Noob: I read in the documents that metal is rare, but there's a big steel dragon right outside Allanak's gates. What gives?
Veteran: Find out IC.

OR

Veteran: There's a pretty lengthy history concerning the dragon's importance to Allanak. I would suggest reading up on it here: (Your sweet helpfile link goes here)

Actually, let's toss in a third one, just for those of us who don't like having to answer the same question over and over again. Ready? Go!



...And we're done. That's right. Instead of jumping on the FOI Train, how about saying nothing? The same amount of information is conveyed, but in a way that is less frustrating and annoying to our fellow players. I mean, really, telling people to find out IC why there's a steel dragon outside of Allanak or what the syntax is for making their mount rest is just a glorified "I know, but I'm not gonna tell you."

[spawnloser]

The problem, bloodfromstone is that you're using the wrong examples.

The examples you gave actually have simple answers.  Why's there a steal dragon?  Because Tek wants to show off how much metal he has and the dragon is his symbol.  How do you make your mount rest?  While mounted, type rest.

These are much different from: Where do I find lockpicks in game?  Find out IC, because, yes, I know but won't tell you, and moreover, I shouldn't tell you...you should find out on your own through the means available to your character like everyone else that is exploring the game.

[Bestatte]

Where do I find lockpicks in the game?

Non-intuitive answer that doesn't help and only frustrates:

Find out IC.

Intuitive answer that prompts new players toward the answers they seek:

Shady characters and characters interested in breaking the law are most inclined to find shady-character-tools in shady-character places. Or ask other shady characters, if your character -would- ask someone like that.

Reason for a more intuitive answer: There are games where you can buy a lockpick at a public locksmith shop, because being a lockpicker is an actual valid profession and a needed service for adventurers who pick up locked chests as treasure. Players of those kinds of games, coming to Armageddon, might not truly realize that lockpicking isn't considered a "publicly accepted" thing (even though the docs and skillsets support the shady character motif).

[Kiri]

Hell, I'll go a step further and say the travel cake "recipe" should be in the help file for the cooking skill.

Every time I see "find out IC" given as the answer for a very newbie question that's more an issue of syntax or sheer unfamiliarity with the game system, I think to myself that we're risking losing a player.

Syntax and lack of specifics in help files were one of the biggest reasons I very nearly quit playing. It's all great to say, "Find out IC..." unless you're one of only 20 players actually IN game, and 19 of them are in Tuluki while you're in Allanak. The OOC mechanics are also a bit intimidating, as they are visible to EVERYONE, and I hesitate to ask questions OOC even when I desperately need an answer. Sometimes there just aren't any sensible ways to ask IC. (For instance, "Why do I have to flee from a stuffed dummy that isn't going anywhere?")

I don't think ALL the answers should be spelled out in the help files. But some things are down right frustrating to figure out by oneself (like, "does seeing the message "I don't think you can craft anything from that" mean I won't EVER be able to? Or that I just need more skill?" The same with analyze).

To end things on a more positive note, I can say without reservation that it is due to three or four players/characters taking the time with mine that kept me from leaving. Even if you don't actually TEACH a newbie anything, interacting with them can leave enough of an impression that they want more, crave more, and stay.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I will admit that I was perhaps a bit brief...

I do agree that simply saying, "Find out IC," is not productive.  I didn't mean that that's all I would say, even though it is all I wrote above.  Like I said, I was being brief, so my fault for not being more explicit.  I was meaning more that a statement would mean, "Find out IC," but not actually be only those three words.

[Larrath]

The problem, bloodfromstone is that you're using the wrong examples.

I don't think she is.  Why is there a steel dragon around Allanak is a classic find-out-IC question because you can go to a PC templar and bother him about it.  Sure, you might be one PC short after talking to the templar as an inexperienced newbie, but you'll know!

The examples you gave actually have simple answers.  Why's there a steel dragon?  Because Tek wants to show off how much metal he has and the dragon is his symbol.  How do you make your mount rest?  While mounted, type rest.

These are much different from: Where do I find lockpicks in game?  Find out IC, because, yes, I know but won't tell you, and moreover, I shouldn't tell you...you should find out on your own through the means available to your character like everyone else that is exploring the game.

The answer about the dragon isn't much more complex than the answer regading 'where can I find lockpicks', and additional to that, if you tell a newbie to simply ask people where to find a lockpick they might go ahead and do that, and ask the nearest Militia sergeant where they can buy lockpicks.

Some situations truly are such that a player would have to find out in game, but these are RARE.  You want to know whether those dull black gems are just weird-ass pendants or if they have any special properties?  Find out IC.  The Silt helpfile says silt affects magick, wanna know how?  Find out IC.  What sort of abilities do templars have?  Find out IC.
Is it possible to brew rare and dangerous poisons?  Yes.  Are kanks common in Tuluk?  Not really.  What is that black spice called?  Thodeliv.  What road leads into the 'rinth?  Hathor's Road.  Can I cast spells in the middle of the 'rinth?  Find out IC.  Can I craft perfume?  No.

Find out IC is for these situations where people ask stuff they have no business knowing about if all they should know is the game documentation.  I get disappointed when people just fire that answer because it makes people get used to not asking.

Fact is that it's possible to answer almost any question out there without revealing any serious IC information.  So unless the question is EXTREMELY IC and if "find out IC" is all you have to say, please just say nothing and let people that do care about answering answer.
I seem to remember people asking the most common, trivial things out there and being told to find out IC.  I say fuck that.

[spawnloser]

Larrath, read my more recent post on the thread.

[Larrath]

I've now read the post, spawnloser.

The thing is that simply saying 'find out IC' or even saying who the person would be capable of asking to get an answer just isn't always enough.  The best way to answer these questions is by providing background information.

For example.
Question: Are there half-elf tribes in Allanak?
Answer: Most half-elves tend to prefer spending their time with humans and/or elves, attempting to gain their acceptance.  Because of their inherent inferiority complexes, half-elves aren't very likely to form a tribe of their own, even though it's not completely impossible.  There is no major game clan that represents a tribe of half-elves, but it's also possible that it's simply a secret - the best way to find out for sure is to ask around the city.

It's not just about choosing different words and not just going 'find out IC', it's about giving the player enough information to be able to estimate an answer by themselves, and to increase their understanding of the game.

[spawnloser]

On a quick aside, do you know for fact that there are no half-elf tribes?

A better response would be:
You know, I can't say whether there are or not, so you'll have to find out IC.  However, something to think about with half-elves, per the docsumentation, they have this odd love/hate relationship with acceptance.  They want to be accepted by elves or humans or both, but as soon as they are accepted they feel the need to be independant.

See, I never meant that one should just to say, "Find out IC."  That's why I said I was too brief initially.

[Rindan]

I think a good amount of time the "find out IC" is the wrong answer.  Even when the answer truly is "find out IC", you don't need to be a dick about it and post a thoroughly unfriendly and unhelpful one line "find out IC" response.  If "find out IC" is all you have to say, do everyone else a favor and don't post.  Let someone who is willing to give a more thoughtful answer that might very well end with "but you need to find out IC" post.  If you want to be an asshole, be an asshole somewhere else, or at the very least don't be an asshole to the newbies.

Stuff like the steel dragon outside of Allanak is not a "find out IC" answer.  It is absolutely and completely common knowledge that is not only found in the helpfiles, but should be known and drilled into the head of every single Allanaki commoner.  It is common knowledge and has in fact been drilled into the head of every single commoner since birth that the dragon was put there as a grand monument to Tek saving Allanak from the Ironsword army.  You can bet your ass that every single commoner in Allanak has been indoctrinated as to why that dragon is there.  Further, this information can be found in help files making it doubly not "find out IC".  This is common knowledge that every Allanaki should have, pure and simple.  No, a n00b should not be forced to go look like an idiot and ask a Templar why there is a dragon there, nor should they have to deal with a dozen 'emote His eyes widen in total surprise @ looks at you like you are a fucking idiot".

The lock picks is another example where the asinine holier then thou response of a one lined "find out IC" is absolutely unneeded.  If you can't say more then that, don't respond.  Someone else will offer better advice without making the player base look like it is comprised of assholes.  If someone asks on the GDB about something like lock picks, give them a helpful answer that points them in the right direction.  Tell them that lock picking is generally considered a criminal activity, and as such owning lock picks is generally considered criminal.  As a result, the people most likely to have lock picks to sell are criminals.  You can lead them along the line of logic that if they want something that is illegal, they probably need to go somewhere that has rampant illegal activity.

The number of "find out IC" answers that really need to be handed out are very low.  Most of the time you can at least get them thinking as to how to answer their question.  Even if you need to blatantly tell them "find out IC", don't be a shit head and post a one lined "find out IC" post.  You can explain WHY you can't tell them and explain that it is sensitive IC information.  Whenever I see a one line post says just "find out IC", it comes off as the equivalent as saying "fuck off".  Show people more respect then that.  If you don't want to help answer their question, don't post.