Newbs, who are they and what are they thinking?!?!

[Ktavialt]

Remember the newbie you, by all means, stay true to your character, but if you can find a way to throw a newbie a few crumbs you might just be getting someone addicted to Armageddon. That has to be good for us all.

Word.

[Cale_Knight]

Newbies should start with a full waterskin, five or six travel cakes, and all their newbie money in the bank.

I bet that'd cut down newbie fatalities by at least half.

[*grumble*]

TRAVEL CAKES!?!

I been playing for a while now and still don't know if they are makeable when you first start out or the stupid syntax for them!!!

*grumbles loudly about travel cakes as he stumbles away from the post*

[Cale_Knight]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

[Hymwen]

Getting new players involved is a great thing. We should all do it, and the reason I stayed was due to a handful of players who helped me out at first. They probably know who they are

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that while you should help new players, keep it small. Take them on a guided tour around town, show them how to make travel cakes, tell them to stay the hell away from templars and neckers, and give them a link to the helpers list. Things like that. Be careful about getting them too involved, both because it's all so very confusing to a new player, but also because they usually don't know if they'll stick around. I knew I didn't, I kinda just poked my head in one day to see what it was all about, and when I was told to find a job I was intimidated because I knew that it meant commitment and having to show up at certain times. As a new player, you don't know right away if you'll want to put that much time into this. So when someone comes strolling out of the Gaj wearing his simple sandcloth attire, don't instantly enroll them with the Byn or hire them to some tight schedule because they need to find their bearings, learn how to maneuver, and decide whether or not they want to stay before they can make a choice like that.

[Larrath]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

That's actually not true.  Sometimes when you craft and fail the crafting roll, you're still given an object (or a few).  This is often the case with jewelry, where you can break the gem but still keep the bone you were trying to set it into.
This is also the case here - on a practical level, it's not possible to fail the attempt.  But get a PC with a good cooking skill make travel cakes and you'll see a difference.

[Anonymous]

Buy a sack of flour.

Type "craft flour into a few travel cakes."

Done. And you can never fail in the attempt, either, regardless of your cooking skill.

Why do I see this as a missed opportunity to interact with someone in game?

say Hey, whatcha got there?  You make that yourself?

[Cale_Knight]

Why do I see this as a missed opportunity to interact with someone in game?

say Hey, whatcha got there?  You make that yourself?

Any such interaction with a newbie who doesn't know how to make travel cakes is inevitbly going to devolve into OOCly explaining what I just did.

It's just a syntax issue. Nobody who survives 20 years as a commoner on Zalanthas is going to do so without learning that flour+water=food.

[Anonymous]

Any such interaction with a newbie who doesn't know how to make travel cakes is inevitbly going to devolve into OOCly explaining what I just did.

It's just a syntax issue. Nobody who survives 20 years as a commoner on Zalanthas is going to do so without learning that flour+water=food.

It's not the point.  I'm not some asshole who wants even the most minute of details kept from the plebs.  It has more to do with people need all the conversation starters they can get in this game.  I'm as guilty as anyone else of sitting in a tavern with 5 PCs having an emote-off because nobody can think of a damn thing to say.

Allanak is a big city, maybe that 20 year old commoner doesn't know where to get flour.  Moreover if it's in Allanak if they asked around someone would have taken the newbie into the Gaj's firepit and show them how to emote out cooking with the clay ovens in the firepit's room desc.

I'll never get over this notion that telling a new player precisely how to do something out of game is as helpful as giving them ways to go about getting what they in game.  I've been there and I was better off being told to ask around for how to get a merchant's token than just being given the answer.

[Cale_Knight]

Hell, I'll go a step further and say the travel cake "recipe" should be in the help file for the cooking skill.

Every time I see "find out IC" given as the answer for a very newbie question that's more an issue of syntax or sheer unfamiliarity with the game system, I think to myself that we're risking losing a player.

[Cenghiz]

In my life in ARM, I've met many "Find out IC."ers. Not people using it accurately I mean. Something like...

The noob says, out of character:
"I fought a scrab and my hp does not increase. Does anyone know how I can make it rise? There are elixirs of life?"
>ooc 'Help health' will gi
The bitch says, out of character:
"Find out IC."

Won't you all just shut up instead? Give the name of a helpfile, the helper list's web adress, do anything but please do not go "Find out IC." about the OOC topics.

[bloodfromstone]

I have to chime in just to say that "Find out IC" is about the most frustrating and, more often than not, inappropriate response one can give. It's given constantly, by players and staff alike. Is it really so hard to type out a unique sentence on the matter that will at least give the person the impression your read their question?

Let's look at two examples:
Noob: I read in the documents that metal is rare, but there's a big steel dragon right outside Allanak's gates. What gives?
Veteran: Find out IC.

OR

Veteran: There's a pretty lengthy history concerning the dragon's importance to Allanak. I would suggest reading up on it here: (Your sweet helpfile link goes here)

Actually, let's toss in a third one, just for those of us who don't like having to answer the same question over and over again. Ready? Go!



...And we're done. That's right. Instead of jumping on the FOI Train, how about saying nothing? The same amount of information is conveyed, but in a way that is less frustrating and annoying to our fellow players. I mean, really, telling people to find out IC why there's a steel dragon outside of Allanak or what the syntax is for making their mount rest is just a glorified "I know, but I'm not gonna tell you."

[spawnloser]

The problem, bloodfromstone is that you're using the wrong examples.

The examples you gave actually have simple answers.  Why's there a steal dragon?  Because Tek wants to show off how much metal he has and the dragon is his symbol.  How do you make your mount rest?  While mounted, type rest.

These are much different from: Where do I find lockpicks in game?  Find out IC, because, yes, I know but won't tell you, and moreover, I shouldn't tell you...you should find out on your own through the means available to your character like everyone else that is exploring the game.

[Bestatte]

Where do I find lockpicks in the game?

Non-intuitive answer that doesn't help and only frustrates:

Find out IC.

Intuitive answer that prompts new players toward the answers they seek:

Shady characters and characters interested in breaking the law are most inclined to find shady-character-tools in shady-character places. Or ask other shady characters, if your character -would- ask someone like that.

Reason for a more intuitive answer: There are games where you can buy a lockpick at a public locksmith shop, because being a lockpicker is an actual valid profession and a needed service for adventurers who pick up locked chests as treasure. Players of those kinds of games, coming to Armageddon, might not truly realize that lockpicking isn't considered a "publicly accepted" thing (even though the docs and skillsets support the shady character motif).

[Kiri]

Hell, I'll go a step further and say the travel cake "recipe" should be in the help file for the cooking skill.

Every time I see "find out IC" given as the answer for a very newbie question that's more an issue of syntax or sheer unfamiliarity with the game system, I think to myself that we're risking losing a player.

Syntax and lack of specifics in help files were one of the biggest reasons I very nearly quit playing. It's all great to say, "Find out IC..." unless you're one of only 20 players actually IN game, and 19 of them are in Tuluki while you're in Allanak. The OOC mechanics are also a bit intimidating, as they are visible to EVERYONE, and I hesitate to ask questions OOC even when I desperately need an answer. Sometimes there just aren't any sensible ways to ask IC. (For instance, "Why do I have to flee from a stuffed dummy that isn't going anywhere?")

I don't think ALL the answers should be spelled out in the help files. But some things are down right frustrating to figure out by oneself (like, "does seeing the message "I don't think you can craft anything from that" mean I won't EVER be able to? Or that I just need more skill?" The same with analyze).

To end things on a more positive note, I can say without reservation that it is due to three or four players/characters taking the time with mine that kept me from leaving. Even if you don't actually TEACH a newbie anything, interacting with them can leave enough of an impression that they want more, crave more, and stay.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I will admit that I was perhaps a bit brief...

I do agree that simply saying, "Find out IC," is not productive.  I didn't mean that that's all I would say, even though it is all I wrote above.  Like I said, I was being brief, so my fault for not being more explicit.  I was meaning more that a statement would mean, "Find out IC," but not actually be only those three words.

[Larrath]

The problem, bloodfromstone is that you're using the wrong examples.

I don't think she is.  Why is there a steel dragon around Allanak is a classic find-out-IC question because you can go to a PC templar and bother him about it.  Sure, you might be one PC short after talking to the templar as an inexperienced newbie, but you'll know!

The examples you gave actually have simple answers.  Why's there a steel dragon?  Because Tek wants to show off how much metal he has and the dragon is his symbol.  How do you make your mount rest?  While mounted, type rest.

These are much different from: Where do I find lockpicks in game?  Find out IC, because, yes, I know but won't tell you, and moreover, I shouldn't tell you...you should find out on your own through the means available to your character like everyone else that is exploring the game.

The answer about the dragon isn't much more complex than the answer regading 'where can I find lockpicks', and additional to that, if you tell a newbie to simply ask people where to find a lockpick they might go ahead and do that, and ask the nearest Militia sergeant where they can buy lockpicks.

Some situations truly are such that a player would have to find out in game, but these are RARE.  You want to know whether those dull black gems are just weird-ass pendants or if they have any special properties?  Find out IC.  The Silt helpfile says silt affects magick, wanna know how?  Find out IC.  What sort of abilities do templars have?  Find out IC.
Is it possible to brew rare and dangerous poisons?  Yes.  Are kanks common in Tuluk?  Not really.  What is that black spice called?  Thodeliv.  What road leads into the 'rinth?  Hathor's Road.  Can I cast spells in the middle of the 'rinth?  Find out IC.  Can I craft perfume?  No.

Find out IC is for these situations where people ask stuff they have no business knowing about if all they should know is the game documentation.  I get disappointed when people just fire that answer because it makes people get used to not asking.

Fact is that it's possible to answer almost any question out there without revealing any serious IC information.  So unless the question is EXTREMELY IC and if "find out IC" is all you have to say, please just say nothing and let people that do care about answering answer.
I seem to remember people asking the most common, trivial things out there and being told to find out IC.  I say fuck that.

[spawnloser]

Larrath, read my more recent post on the thread.

[Larrath]

I've now read the post, spawnloser.

The thing is that simply saying 'find out IC' or even saying who the person would be capable of asking to get an answer just isn't always enough.  The best way to answer these questions is by providing background information.

For example.
Question: Are there half-elf tribes in Allanak?
Answer: Most half-elves tend to prefer spending their time with humans and/or elves, attempting to gain their acceptance.  Because of their inherent inferiority complexes, half-elves aren't very likely to form a tribe of their own, even though it's not completely impossible.  There is no major game clan that represents a tribe of half-elves, but it's also possible that it's simply a secret - the best way to find out for sure is to ask around the city.

It's not just about choosing different words and not just going 'find out IC', it's about giving the player enough information to be able to estimate an answer by themselves, and to increase their understanding of the game.

[spawnloser]

On a quick aside, do you know for fact that there are no half-elf tribes?

A better response would be:
You know, I can't say whether there are or not, so you'll have to find out IC.  However, something to think about with half-elves, per the docsumentation, they have this odd love/hate relationship with acceptance.  They want to be accepted by elves or humans or both, but as soon as they are accepted they feel the need to be independant.

See, I never meant that one should just to say, "Find out IC."  That's why I said I was too brief initially.

[Rindan]

I think a good amount of time the "find out IC" is the wrong answer.  Even when the answer truly is "find out IC", you don't need to be a dick about it and post a thoroughly unfriendly and unhelpful one line "find out IC" response.  If "find out IC" is all you have to say, do everyone else a favor and don't post.  Let someone who is willing to give a more thoughtful answer that might very well end with "but you need to find out IC" post.  If you want to be an asshole, be an asshole somewhere else, or at the very least don't be an asshole to the newbies.

Stuff like the steel dragon outside of Allanak is not a "find out IC" answer.  It is absolutely and completely common knowledge that is not only found in the helpfiles, but should be known and drilled into the head of every single Allanaki commoner.  It is common knowledge and has in fact been drilled into the head of every single commoner since birth that the dragon was put there as a grand monument to Tek saving Allanak from the Ironsword army.  You can bet your ass that every single commoner in Allanak has been indoctrinated as to why that dragon is there.  Further, this information can be found in help files making it doubly not "find out IC".  This is common knowledge that every Allanaki should have, pure and simple.  No, a n00b should not be forced to go look like an idiot and ask a Templar why there is a dragon there, nor should they have to deal with a dozen 'emote His eyes widen in total surprise @ looks at you like you are a fucking idiot".

The lock picks is another example where the asinine holier then thou response of a one lined "find out IC" is absolutely unneeded.  If you can't say more then that, don't respond.  Someone else will offer better advice without making the player base look like it is comprised of assholes.  If someone asks on the GDB about something like lock picks, give them a helpful answer that points them in the right direction.  Tell them that lock picking is generally considered a criminal activity, and as such owning lock picks is generally considered criminal.  As a result, the people most likely to have lock picks to sell are criminals.  You can lead them along the line of logic that if they want something that is illegal, they probably need to go somewhere that has rampant illegal activity.

The number of "find out IC" answers that really need to be handed out are very low.  Most of the time you can at least get them thinking as to how to answer their question.  Even if you need to blatantly tell them "find out IC", don't be a shit head and post a one lined "find out IC" post.  You can explain WHY you can't tell them and explain that it is sensitive IC information.  Whenever I see a one line post says just "find out IC", it comes off as the equivalent as saying "fuck off".  Show people more respect then that.  If you don't want to help answer their question, don't post.