A more robust combat system.

[Jakahri]

I for one love the simplicity of ArmageddonMUD's combat system. It is quick, efficient, and deadly.

However, I think it would be great if the system were even more fleshed out. Players would have the option to use more skills; hence, battles would be more akin to an actual tactical conflict, not simple h'n's kills.

Some of these ideas have been discussed time and again, though I believe we can talk about these proposals and think of ways to implement them, hopefully.

Skills and Ideas:

*Grapple skill*

Essentially, this ability is available to warriors, guards, thugs, and possibly mercenaries.  It is basically an extension of the subdue skill, yet it can open up the possibility of prolonging combat and allowing the fight to shape in different ways.

Note that grapple is similar to subdue, though its effects are totally different. A subdued opponent is generally held from the back by his/her subduer. This is useful for interrogations and muggings.

Grapple, however, is useful for pvp. Skills can be used against an opponent after they have been grappled, unlike subdue. (Hence the main difference)

Code Select Expand


>grapple man
Rushing forward suddenly, you reach out with your arms, clashing against your opponent!


This skill could be based off of strength, agility, and endurance as well, for wrestling an opponent is a very tiresome job.

Depending on the skill of grapplers involved, the more advanced opponent will have the chance to take advantage of the clash and place their nemesis in a submission. This, in turn, opens up the possibility to use new skills.

*Changing 'kick' to 'strike'*

This command can be used against an opponent by normal combat or through grappling as well.

Upon grappling an opponent, you can:

Code Select Expand


>grapple man
>Rushing forward suddenly, you reach out with your arms, clashing against your opponent!
>Twisting your body around, you place your opponent in a submission and gain the advantage!
>strike man
>Jerking up suddenly, you attempt a knee-strike to the man's abdomen

(success)
>You drive your knee into the man's abdomen, knocking the breath out of him!

OR

>You slam the blade of your elbow along the base of your opponent's neck!

And so on and so forth. I'll add more later when I get in from work. :P

[UnderSeven]

Personally I think the combat system is robust enough.  There is a lot of depth at play very subtly in combat on armageddon.  It's even to the point where you could call it complex, but the key here is it's very subtle and unless you know it's there, you probably won't notice it.  

This is just my experience from playing, but when you make something more complex on the surface, it just means it will have more aspects which no one bothers to use.  Armageddon uses a fairly well rounded one and I've never found any terrible problem with it, or feeling that there wasn't enough options.

I dare not say more because I do think what I do know about the combat system could fall into the cliche term of:
"find out ic"

[Yokunama]

I agree with you too, Underseven.

It could also take away emotes and put more of the players' focus on punching in commands during combat.

[Ritley]

Well, because we're talking about combat code I'll add this. In combat you're energy should, go down slowly, and as it goes down you get easier to hit, and you don't strike as fast as you would when you're fully rested. Also, if you're energy hits 0 while fighting, you will pass out. Thoughts?

[Moofassa]

Well, because we're talking about combat code I'll add this. In combat you're energy should, go down slowly, and as it goes down you get easier to hit, and you don't strike as fast as you would when you're fully rested. Also, if you're energy hits 0 while fighting, you will pass out. Thoughts?

It's a valid idea.. It would just make playability alot worse.

For instance, Ritley fights Tembo. Tembo not hit Ritley much, cuz Ritley uber. Even though, Ritley take long time to kill Tembo, because Tembo fast. Ritley kill tembo. Ritley have 4 stamina. Delf attacks Ritley. Ritley realises Delf was watching the entire time grinning. Human watches from south, waiting for Ritley to die, and Delf to tire. ...

[Ritley]

Well, because we're talking about combat code I'll add this. In combat you're energy should, go down slowly, and as it goes down you get easier to hit, and you don't strike as fast as you would when you're fully rested. Also, if you're energy hits 0 while fighting, you will pass out. Thoughts?

It's a valid idea.. It would just make playability alot worse.

For instance, Ritley fights Tembo. Tembo not hit Ritley much, cuz Ritley uber. Even though, Ritley take long time to kill Tembo, because Tembo fast. Ritley kill tembo. Ritley have 4 stamina. Delf attacks Ritley. Ritley realises Delf was watching the entire time grinning. Human watches from south, waiting for Ritley to die, and Delf to tire. ...

Oh yeah, good point.  Well how about make it so you only suffer from a small decrease when tired, and you don't pass out? besides, Ritley wouldn't lose loads of stamina to a tembo. He would kill it within half a second and kill both the human and Delf by just looking at them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, because we're talking about combat code I'll add this. In combat you're energy should, go down slowly, and as it goes down you get easier to hit, and you don't strike as fast as you would when you're fully rested. Also, if you're energy hits 0 while fighting, you will pass out. Thoughts?

It's a valid idea.. It would just make playability alot worse.

For instance, Ritley fights Tembo. Tembo not hit Ritley much, cuz Ritley uber. Even though, Ritley take long time to kill Tembo, because Tembo fast. Ritley kill tembo. Ritley have 4 stamina. Delf attacks Ritley. Ritley realises Delf was watching the entire time grinning. Human watches from south, waiting for Ritley to die, and Delf to tire. ...

And the disadvantage to this? Obviously, it will cut back on the twinks who spam kill animals, and are we not always talking about twinks? Is it realistic to try to kill a certian fast-moving lizard for two ingame hours?

I wish to hell this -would- go in.

[Ritley]

Well, because we're talking about combat code I'll add this. In combat you're energy should, go down slowly, and as it goes down you get easier to hit, and you don't strike as fast as you would when you're fully rested. Also, if you're energy hits 0 while fighting, you will pass out. Thoughts?

It's a valid idea.. It would just make playability alot worse.

For instance, Ritley fights Tembo. Tembo not hit Ritley much, cuz Ritley uber. Even though, Ritley take long time to kill Tembo, because Tembo fast. Ritley kill tembo. Ritley have 4 stamina. Delf attacks Ritley. Ritley realises Delf was watching the entire time grinning. Human watches from south, waiting for Ritley to die, and Delf to tire. ...

And the disadvantage to this? Obviously, it will cut back on the twinks who spam kill animals, and are we not always talking about twinks? Is it realistic to try to kill a certian fast-moving lizard for two ingame hours?

I wish to hell this -would- go in.

Yes, seems 7DeadlyVennomz is expressing my point, better than I could. Thank you. I will Idea it IG as soon as I have time.

[UnderSeven]

Well my problem with this is the hard ness it would be to make it work right.  Let me explain my thoughts:

A bear might not attack a big animal in real life if it feels during the fight it would get too tired to protect the kill from the next predator.  

This would work in arm, players would have to decide if hunting this animal would exhaust them too much to go on and therefore would have to avoid more fights BUT!

We have argro npcs.  UNLESS the npcs had the same thing to consider, this system would murder playability.  Tembo might lose to you, but in actuality would a tembo stick around while getting mauled?  Possibly not, further more if tembo fighting you might tire it out to much to stop second tembo from driving it off should also result in tembo deciding killing you isn't worth it.

This means in order for this system to work, npcs would have to stop being agro and start fleeing if 1) they're going to lose for sure or 2) they might win, but couldn't defend their kill afterward.

If this system wasn't implemented properly then what you might see is pcs having to fight mindless npcs one after another who don't care if they tire themselves out, since they aren't a character that took however long to approve, however long to build and however long to develop.  

Basically unless this idea can be done right, I'm totally against it.

[Lazloth]

Thank you. I will Idea it IG as soon as I have time.

Not to dissuade your effort (I think it'd be a good addition if done right), but the idea of combat fatigue has been brought up many many times before.

Here's some reading for interested parties with various pros/cons:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7032
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15012
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=982
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9253
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5598

[spawnloser]

I gotta agree with UnderSeven...unless NPCs had to factor in the same thing PCs did, this would make things even more UNrealistic rather than more realistic.

[Jakahri]

Thanks for hijacking my thread.  :wink:

Combat fatigue is a nice idea, though.

[spawnloser]

Aw...it's not that bad.  Just more ideas for robust combat.

[Jakahri]

Robustness is always good.

*snicker*

[Yokunama]

Combat fatigue is a nice idea, though.

I think we do have some degree of combat fatigue.

[Jakahri]

I think we do have some degree of combat fatigue.

If there is combat fatigue, I am totally unaware of it. What observations in the game have made you draw this conclusion?

[Maybe42or54]

I get tired of watching my Pc fight. It reminds me of tavern sitting.

[UnderSeven]

Actually I agree, we do have combat fatigue in a sense.

granted I don't fight much, but we have three stats that generate our over all well ness.  Stun results in unconsiousness and can be considered like a fatigue, in fact if I were to say what stun is in a real world sense, I would call stun something more like short term fatigue, and stanima like long term fatigue.  In some ways, granted the game in most instances treats it like mental fatigue, but say, stun is used for tasks such as the way and falling on your head and such, since you can lose it in combat various ways, I think it's a fair claim if that's what he meant.

[Cegar]

Not to mention you lose stun if a blow is directed to your armor, hide, etc.

[Jakahri]

I don't fight much, but we have three stats that generate our over all well ness.

Stats generating one's overall wellness does not equate to combat fatigue.

Stun results in unconsiousness and can be considered like a fatigue.

Loss of stun is a result of bludgeoning damage or powerful hits from other weapons and/or use of the way. I agree that loss of one's stun pool can be reflective of their "mental fatigue", but only in the use of the way. In terms of combat, one only loses stun if they take a shot to the head. That represents them coming close to losing conciousness, and is not an actual representation of "fatigue" in the physical sense.

In some ways, granted the game in most instances treats it like mental fatigue.

Correct.

Based off of endurance, combat fatigue would be an interesting concept.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd assume that NPCs and PCs would lose stamina alike. With our programming abilities, NPCs can be set to flee at a certian point, and the criteria should be adjustable.

You lose stun if you are hit hard enough with any weapon in the body or head. Clubs cause you to lose much more over more locations.

I think that 2-4 points of stamina lose per attack round or accessory combative skill use would be enough.

[Delirium]

Or even too much.

1-2 would be far more reasonable.  I would hesitate to see this because of playability concerns.  Sometimes OOC has to trump IC when it comes to code.  

A sharp-shot archer should be able to kill you with one arrow and a single blow to the head from a braxat should really be the end of your character - but it isn't, because of playability concerns.  The stamina loss is in that category, to me.

[Jakahri]

1-2 would be far more reasonable.

I agree.

I would hesitate to see this because of playability concerns.

The only concern I see is the increased risk of death if you don't pay attention to your stamina and the surroundings. You think that's bad?

Sometimes OOC has to trump IC when it comes to code.

This isn't one of those cases, in my opinion.

A sharp-shot archer should be able to kill you with one arrow and a single blow to the head from a braxat should really be the end of your character - but it isn't, because of playability concerns.

I've seen both happen in game.

[Delirium]

A sharp-shot archer should be able to kill you with one arrow and a single blow to the head from a braxat should really be the end of your character - but it isn't, because of playability concerns.

I've seen both happen in game.

When the character was at full health, and magick/uberleet gear wasn't involved?

Somehow I doubt it.  Regardless, it should, ICly, be much less rare.  OOCly, it isn't, because of playability.

[Maybe42or54]

A sharp-shot archer should be able to kill you with one arrow and a single blow to the head from a braxat should really be the end of your character - but it isn't, because of playability concerns.  The stamina loss is in that category, to me.

I've seen people get shot with a blowgun's dart and die instantly. Even when they were wearing a Bone Helmet and a faceguard. I've seen people start a battle and die within 2 hits from a pc.
I've seen pcs take on more than 3 NPC gith and still win.

In every case, the Pc started at full life. No magick involved, that I know of.