A more robust combat system.

[Ritley]

I don't fight much, but we have three stats that generate our over all well ness.

Stats generating one's overall wellness does not equate to combat fatigue.

Stun results in unconsiousness and can be considered like a fatigue.

Loss of stun is a result of bludgeoning damage or powerful hits from other weapons and/or use of the way. I agree that loss of one's stun pool can be reflective of their "mental fatigue", but only in the use of the way. In terms of combat, one only loses stun if they take a shot to the head. That represents them coming close to losing conciousness, and is not an actual representation of "fatigue" in the physical sense.

In some ways, granted the game in most instances treats it like mental fatigue.

Correct.

Based off of endurance, combat fatigue would be an interesting concept.

Wrong wrong. So wrong. Ever fought a half giant?

[UnderSeven]

All of the fabulous ways you can die really isn't the point.

At least not any of my points.

I'm trying to say that combat fatigue would require pcs to think ahead, plan ahead, which while this may seem like a good thing, even if npcs were coded to flee when st got too low, the fact that an npc will for instance, chase you to exhaustion (their own included) is unrealistic because in a real circumstance (you see this with real world predators all the time) if after killing something, that predator doesn't think it can guard the kill against another predator, (say like it's brother over there) It won't bother.  Are npcs going to be able to be coded without this level of AI?  If not, then I think this is a very bad idea.

Imagine if you will, going from one place to another, running into creature after creature, we'll assume you're a strong enough fighter to deal with each of them, but you get tired.  The npcs, being dumb npcs, fight until they are way to low on health, because afterall, it isn't like they have to worry about other argro npcs killing them, thus meaning your st stores just go down and down and down.  

One side effect this would have on the game is suddenly to travel at all or hunt you'd have to be that much better of a fighter in order to end things quickly as possible.  This would probably result in a great deal of more power gaming.

Another side effect is that races that have more st to begin with suddenly rule the combat.  For instance, an elf which probably has better agi, can now not only avoid getting hit, but can try longer and last longer.   This would have serious affects on the balance of combat across the board.  Much more than a single addition.  

Also npcs don't wear armor, or much armor (for many factors) and therefore are going to probably see a slower st loss in every situation.  

Now we consider flee, which takes a lot of st to run away from something in say desert rooms.  

This idea would be cool, I've said it before, if implemented exactly right, but otherwise the effects would be potientally too much.

[Jakahri]

Wrong wrong. So wrong. Ever fought a half giant?

No. I am not stupid.

I know they are capable of knocking you out with their bare hands, as is a mul. That is not the purpose of this debate, though.

This idea would be cool, I've said it before, if implemented exactly right, but otherwise the effects would be potientally too much.

I agree. A fine line needs to be drawn between realism and playability, as I believe Delirium pointed out.

[Many Faces]

Balance.  Balance good.

Cost for something like this should have something to do with class, I think.  A merchant who gets into a brief scrap is going to be panting hard and all wigged out (representing a much larger stamina loss), while your average Byn trooper has done this a hundred times and isn't going to break a sweat.

[Lazloth]

Another side effect is that races that have more st to begin with suddenly rule the combat.  For instance, an elf which probably has better agi, can now not only avoid getting hit, but can try longer and last longer.   This would have serious affects on the balance of combat across the board.  Much more than a single addition.  

Now we consider flee, which takes a lot of st to run away from something in say desert rooms.

You're equating movement points with stamina, right?  I'm assuming so but abbreviating it as 'st' implies stun.

Cost for something like this should have something to do with class, I think.

That's not really necessary because that merchant will not fight effectively enough to make it matter.  He's going to be dead pretty quick.

If something like is ever implemented, I'd vote for 0-1mv lost per round or some equivalent.  I think there are many many variables that need to be considered though.

[jhunter]

It's fine the way it is. I think something like this would just annoy me and piss me off more than really -add- anything of interest or enjoyment to it.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree.

[Ghost]

You don't have to make NPC beasts getting tired as easily as PCs.  They are much more adapted to the environment then humanoids (They can have a much more fatigue points, they could get drained of fatigue more slowly and they could have a greate regeneration rate for fatigue purposes) so they will not have to worry too much about defending their kill, unless they fight repeatedly in a short given time.  
Besides, you would not have to make stamina and movement points exactly the same.  The stamina you losein fight could be different than the stamina you lose when you walk.

I like the combat system the way it is, but I think an addition like this would be great.  It would add realism issues.   Currently a maxed warrior faces little to no danger out in the desert.  (I think I saw a warrior facing off 4 gith warriors and still getting away)  With an adition like this, he would consider whether he should take the risk of being out in the desert.

[spawnloser]

Ghost, the point isn't that they should get as tired as humans...they have a different amount of stamina and different move costs over different terrains, so their adaptations are WELL represented already.

The problem would be that they would have to get tired in the first place.  NPCs should have to worry about that next, bigger predator NPC.  NPCs should be aware that they are getting tired and give up. trying to get away from that dude they were going to eat the head off of because they couldn't do anything with the corpse after biting off said head.

Of course, this is all if this sort of addition is made in the first place.

[Ghost]

I see.  But I think it is not that complicated for coding to set a down limit after which an NPC would run away.  My previous mud did use Diku code and it was so simple in coding you would not believe.  Still there were some mobs that would flee after getting down to a certain hp.

Now setting a wimpy for an NPC to run away after their hit points dropped down to a certain percentage, I guess would not be hard.  Now defining a new parameter which would go down in fight constantly and coding the NPc to run away after it gets down to a certain percentage, as it seems, would be equally easy right?
And the final step would be, coding the NPC so that its aggro flag would wear off when its hp and stamina is lower than the low limit.  Still, even though I don't know about coding, looks easy to do.

If these are all possible, I think it would be a good idea to add.

[LoD]

Implementing combat fatigue would be possible.  Implementing combat fatigue well would be nearly impossible.  What do I mean?

If we're wanting to be "realistic", as everyone who is pro-fatigue seems to want, then you would need to account for many, many variables on how fatigued someone would get from extended combat.  Jus some of the things you would have to consider:

1. Weight of the weapon you're using.
2. Weight of the armor you're wearing.
3. Weight on your total person.
4. What you're fighting on - grass, dirt, sand, stone?
5. How hard you need to swing/stab/attack to wound through the armor. (Fighting someone in cloth will require less force than in full bone armor)
6. How hydrated you are.
7. How much energy in the form of food recently eaten you have.

Suggestions like combat fatigue seem to micromanage bad players rather than encourage good ones.  There are lots of "realistic" features that can be added to the game if you really want to (going to the bathroom, common disease, blood loss, wounds, armor deterioration), but my opinion is that this tightens the game and limits opportunities.

I enjoy the combat system and believe there are always some interesting suggestions for improvement, but I also like the game loose and open to interpretation.  Some of these ideas, while they sound good in theory, would be horrible to implement if you were going to do it correctly.

-LoD

[Aldiel]

I'd actually like to see subdue possible in battle, but with an attack opportunity, which if successful would fail your attempt to subdue.  Or better yet, a 'grapple' ability that branches off of subdue and that could do the above.

[Aldiel]

Implementing combat fatigue would be possible.  Implementing combat fatigue well would be nearly impossible.  What do I mean?

If we're wanting to be "realistic", as everyone who is pro-fatigue seems to want, then you would need to account for many, many variables on how fatigued someone would get from extended combat.  Jus some of the things you would have to consider:

1. Weight of the weapon you're using.
2. Weight of the armor you're wearing.
3. Weight on your total person.
4. What you're fighting on - grass, dirt, sand, stone?
5. How hard you need to swing/stab/attack to wound through the armor. (Fighting someone in cloth will require less force than in full bone armor)
6. How hydrated you are.
7. How much energy in the form of food recently eaten you have.

Suggestions like combat fatigue seem to micromanage bad players rather than encourage good ones.  There are lots of "realistic" features that can be added to the game if you really want to (going to the bathroom, common disease, blood loss, wounds, armor deterioration), but my opinion is that this tightens the game and limits opportunities.

I enjoy the combat system and believe there are always some interesting suggestions for improvement, but I also like the game loose and open to interpretation.  Some of these ideas, while they sound good in theory, would be horrible to implement if you were going to do it correctly.

-LoD

Sometimes I think we do need to micromanage the skill-maxers.  I think it's rather silly how one can spar for days straight.  It think having combat effect your stamina would only add to the game.  Sure, you'd have to do a lot of coding, but any physical action should reduce you stamina even if it's just by 1 or 2 points.

[Jakahri]

My opinion is that this tightens the game and limits opportunities.

How? If you feel it will stop hunters from bagging 5+ animals a day, then I certainly agree. If you think it would stop that new recruit from spamming commands against the sparring dummy all morning, then I most definitely agree. I don't think it would be limiting the game in a bad way. Perhaps you can give examples as to how this would occur?

I also like the game loose and open to interpretation.

Not to be rude, but I wasn't aware this game was a mush.

[LoD]

How? I don't think it would be limiting the game in a bad way. Perhaps you can give examples as to how this would occur?

Sure.  Let's say that a group of us wants to run through some drills that involve us being in "combat" even though we're ICly not trying very hard to attack/kill each other.  The code can't interpret what our intentions are, how fast we're choosing to move, how hard we're choosing to work, what aspects of "combat" we're practicing.

This is a much different scenario than fighting for your life in the desert, but the code won't know the difference.  The code tells you that when you are in "combat" - no matter what the situation - you begin to lose stamina at the same rate.  When the code becomes tighter, meaning that stricter rules are enforced via the code, a certain type of play is mandated.  You no longer have a choice (as a player) to treat an interaction multiple ways.

I would also argue that the rewards of implementing a realistic system of combat fatigue that catered to all of the factors I listed above plus a few that I might have forgotten is not worth the effort.  Players who spam hunt will simply bring a tent and spam rest before resuming their spam hunting.

Not to be rude, but I wasn't aware this game was a mush.

I wasn't aware it deserved any kind of labels other than a "game" or "Armageddon".  Neither of those two labels say that the environment cannot be somewhat open to interpretation to allow for a fair degree of flexibility with how your character acts and reacts to the gameworld.

The more the game controls, the less you do.  Certain controls are necessary as a way to define how one action affects another, but there eventually comes a decision to make between playability and realism.  The game allows us a good deal of freedom to control how we walk, talk, move, eat, drink, go to the bathroom (or not).  The game allows us to decide if a physical encounter is exercise, friendly competition, bitter war, brawling, scuffling, life and death or simply drilling.

I, for one, would like the opportunity to keep that choice.

-LoD

[jhunter]

I, for one, would like the opportunity to keep that choice.

Ditto.

The more things you code for realism and to restrict people from abusing them the more "grey area" you take away from those who don't abuse it.

There are things determined by the code and things left to "the grey area". This "grey area" is another place we can put our roleplay into. Cutting out "grey area" to prevent the abuse of the few, cuts out some opportunity for roleplaying for all.

This game -is- still mainly about the roleplaying.

I don't know about the rest of you but I do think constantly about how much I love the "grey area" because I see it as another opportunity for me to come up with things to add to my roleplaying.

If everyone would just stop worrying about everyone else we wouldn't even be having discussions like this. Concentrate on bettering your own roleplaying skills and lead by example. If you are focusing so much on everyone else who's a twink/bad roleplayer/jerk...etc...perhaps you are taking away your focus from your own roleplaying?

Report those you have to to the mud and let the imms handle it. Lead by example and worry about yourself because that is the only person you have control over anyway.

And...love the "grey area" people. The "grey area" is a roleplayer's best friend.

[X-D]

In with Jhunter, LoD and a couple others on this matter.

I find the combat code plenty robust, there is alot of strategy in play, specialy if your char is a warrior.

Keeping grey areas is good as well, it allows the player to define more of what is happening rather then having the code straightjacket you into something.

I don't want to see combat fatigue also because I think it would be much to hard to do right, simply too many variables.

Age, race, stats, environment, armor, weapons size and weight, so much more. To add in such a thing without doing it correctly and accounting for the variables would do the game a major disservice IMO.

As to hunting, I never understand what peoples problems with it is, Spamm hunting indeed. What exactly is wrong with one or more -skilled- hunters going out and getting as many animals as they want? Its what they do, you would figure, after years of hunting an area, they would know exactly how to go about it with the least amount of strain, Putting in combat fatigue would not change this in the least bit. Believe me, I play hunters in game often and I hunt IRL often. And IRL if I was not restricted by laws, I could easily take MUCH more game then I'm supposed to.

In game, a pair of skilled hunters go out with bows and in the matter of half a game day they could, if they wanted, level an area. The same applies to melee hunters.

But, I don't often see this happening myself, normaly I see one hunter getting 3-5 easy animals (which normaly have a lower total value, so who really cares) Or 2-3 hunters in a group getting 5 or 6 harder animals, whats wrong with that, its still only 2 animals per person.

Also, I'd like to mention, adding combat fatigue really only would hurt the indy players and tribal players, and in a negative way. These people are needed in the game and have it hard enough already. If you wanna add realism, add avoidable realism, or curable, I like parasites ideas:)

[Maybe42or54]

I have never seen people who sparred for a whole day from before dawn until dusk. Those that do, usually change their habit, as it gets REALLY boring after a while if noone is hitting. I would hope.

I've fought a life or death situations that took more then an hour IRL (hence a whole IC daylight time), but that was me against several targets that were real wily and I couldn't catch them and they couldn't do damage to me, but they wanted to kill me real bad and I couldn't escape. I killed them after a while, but they tried their damndest.

[jmordetsky]

I would like to see stam loss from fighting. But at the rate of .1 per round.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd prefer a whole new set of stamina for it.

You lose your battle stamina, before you start to lose your overall stamina.

[FightClub]

Short and to the point.
1: I don't support the current code's subdue system anyway, it's entirely too twinked, and easily exploited by others, which it often is.  I don't think that anything should be branched or added to it, it's rediculous in the first place.

2: The stamina system is already harsh enough, you're laying out this overly complicated solution to solve one little problem.  Where the solution is right before your eyes, rp the situation out, if you see someone fighting a lizard for three months, make fun of them for it, or say something ic, ooc about it, it's a matter of roleplay, not code.  I think that the loss of stamina is already a great encumbrance in this game, and the rate at which you regain stamina, especially in the desert is completely slow, combat loss...would just intensify that and make it worse.  You implement this and you're pretty much also negating any chances of anyone going on foot anwhere outside the gates, as it's already rare, and god think of the desert elves? What would this mean for them if they actually engaged in melee combat?

3:  Good suggestions, but you're taking them too far, all of this is easily resolved with ig rp, bottom line, this isn't real life, it is still a game, you're here to have fun, not whipe your butt after you go to the restroom, and rp every single detail of every single day.  Have fun, and quite taking things overboard.

[Ghost]

... god think of the desert elves? What would this mean for them if they actually engaged in melee combat?

Just to answer that, if such a code as stamina loss due to combat was implemented, Desert Elves would be your biggest fear in the desert.  Not that they would actually have a loss but they would be the ones benefitting most.

[X-D]

Sorry Ghost, Don't see it.

unless a non-delf was out on foot it would not work that way at all.

I sit in bar, fully rested, ride out on trusty kank from luirs, halfway to blackwing.

delf leaves blackwing fully rested and runs halfway to luirs.

We meet, I have kank with 95% stamina left and full stam on my PC, delf has no kank and is at 85% stam, which is likley near my chars max. (I've played delves)

We battle. Me, I get to basicly ignore stam and pay attention to stun and HP, Delf has to watch all 3. And if it goes bad for me, I know that the delf's stam is now too low to chase me far, hop on kank, bolt 10 rooms or so and wait, if he is silly enough to chase I know he is near out of stam, I ride off till he is out. Come back, now I'm at say 50% on my char and 50% on my kank, delf is at 0-5%. Also. if it went the other way, you have to remember, even IF the combat fatigue was imped properly, you could still gauge how much drain that delf had taken by how much you have taken, he runs, thats how you decide if your going to give chase.

In the end the delf would definitly get the short end of the stick if stam drain for combat was put in.

And it really would solve nothing, and would simply give people one more thing to pay attention too, meaning less time for thinks/emotes etc.

And to some others, I still want to know EXACTLY what is "twink hunting"?
Give me a good definition, because I almost never see anything I consider "twink hunting" Cept when people go out and kill things and leave the corpse lay then go kill another, and another etc or if they skin em and leave it all lay IE simply working skinning skill. Of the two, I've rarely seen the first one...matter of fact, I'm not sure I ever have. And on the second, VERY few times in the whole twelve years I've played.

So, maybe I just don't have the "correct" definition.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And to some others, I still want to know EXACTLY what is "twink hunting"?
Give me a good definition, because I almost never see anything I consider "twink hunting" Cept when people go out and kill things and leave the corpse lay then go kill another, and another etc or if they skin em and leave it all lay IE simply working skinning skill. Of the two, I've rarely seen the first one...matter of fact, I'm not sure I ever have. And on the second, VERY few times in the whole twelve years I've played.

Yeah, that would be twink hunting. And I'm glad that you have never seen it. I have. Shit, I did it back when.

[ale six]

In the end the delf would definitly get the short end of the stick if stam drain for combat was put in.

SWEET! Let's do it! KILL THE DELVES!

- alesix isn't racist, really