Thirst.

[Hymwen]

I've noticed some very odd things about thirst.

First of all, my character is very rarely thirsty. I can go for whole mud-days with "you are <hunger_message> and not thirsty", without getting a thirst message, and without drinking anything. I get hungry 10 times for each time I get thirsty. My character mainly eats flatbread and scrab rolls, with the odd steak, tart, erdlu wings and kalans (not nearly enough to keep a person quenched).

Second, when my character does get thirsty, she gets thirsty fast. Here's a log (with no particular IC information) of what just happened. I got a thirsty message, and the time taken from the first thirst message to the "you suffer from dehydration" was something like 10 seconds. It seems very odd to me.

eat roll
You eat part of your spicy ground scrab roll.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >You eat part of your half eaten spicy ground scrab roll.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >You eat your small portion of a spicy ground scrab roll.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >You can't find it.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >You can't find it.
Ok.
get roll backpack

92/92 103/113 67/93 >You get a spicy ground scrab roll from a bone-studded backpack.
It is very light.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >close backpack
Ok.

92/92 103/113 67/93 >eat roll
eat roll
eat roll
eat roll
eat roll
You eat part of your spicy ground scrab roll.
You are thirsty.

92/92 103/113 68/93 >You eat part of your half eaten spicy ground scrab roll.
You are thirsty.

92/92 103/113 68/93 >You eat your small portion of a spicy ground scrab roll.
You are thirsty.

92/92 103/113 68/93 >You can't find it.

92/92 103/113 68/93 >You can't find it.

92/92 103/113 68/93 >
You suffer from dehydration.

92/92 101/113 68/93 >drink gourd
You drink the water.

92/92 101/113 68/93 >drink gourd
You drink the water.

Since my character is eating spicy food, I can understand her getting thirsty, but not dehydrated. Is something wrong with my character, the code, or is it working as intended?

[Rindan]

For what I am told are playability reasons, characters have almost no need for water inside cities.  I have had city based characters that have spent IC years without drinking.  I personally think it is a little silly, but it isn't a bug.  As soon as you hit the desert on the other hand, you will find that you get thirsty roughly as quickly as you would expect to if you lived on a desert planet.  With the way the game clock goes a faster then RL time, you get thirsty pretty damn quick when out in the desert.

As to scrab roles and what not, there are some foods and drinks in the game that will make you thirsty.  Eat a bunch of them and you will get really thirsty.  As more then one foolish explorer has learned, stumbling in the Storm's Eye Tavern almost dead from dehydration and then downing a cask of spiced ale is a good way to get yourself dead.

I agree that the code is a little screwy as you have found out, but it isn't a bug with your character.

[Agent_137]

First off, you might try the helpers with questions like these, usually they can whip out an answer pretty fast.
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/helpers.html

But, if you don't do the IM thing, or none are on to help, "ask the players" is the best place to ask these type of "what the hell is going on" questions.

Moving on, in answer, the thirst code can be less than gradual in its alerts. Also, when in a city, espescially -inside- a room in a city, your need for water is drastically reduced. Of course, Alcoholic drinks logically increase your thirst. But your need for food is more static. It seems to be more related to time since last meal than your current location. So if you're constantly bar hopping and relaxing indoors, eating unfilling bar food, you will see what you are seeing, very little thirst with lots of hunger.

As far as this deyhydration thing goes, I hadn't known spicy food to do the same thing, but that seems to be the case. Though, I do agree, spicy foods should have a limit to how thirsty they make you. But if the thirst code works on a number, and eating spicy food decreases your water level by X amount, it might not be possible to cap it. I dont' know for sure. Let's see what everyone else has.

[marko]

Some foods have a water content that reduces thirst.  Some foods increase thirst.

The food your char ate made her go through the thirst level to the dehydration level.  The message for 'you are getting thirsty' tends to happen when your char _is_ thirsty (or right before it).  

If you check your score regularly you will see 'you are a little thirsty' before you get the you are getting thirsty message (most of the time).  That will sometimes allow you down some water before you are 'too late.'

After awhile, you will probably get used to knowing roughly when your character will get thirsty.  It is dependant on what type of room the char is in (indoors slows down thirst while outdoors increases the rate - weather conditions also apply), what is being drunk, and what your character is eating.

If your character spends a lot of time indoors while in the city you can go for a very long time without drinking - especially if you eat foods that are saturated with liquid.

[Maybe42or54]

He still brings up a very good problem though.
Answer these questions for me.

How long can an earth human survive without food, with just water?

How long can an earth human survive without food and without water?

[Morgenes]

There is no straight answer to your questions, it is all dependant on the condition of the person as well as the environmental conditions.  Humans can survive for weeks without food, dependant on the fat and muscle in the body.    When you don't eat, your body starts digesting it's fat stores and muscle.

When you don't drink things can go downhill quickly, especially in heat.  You are loosing liquid in sweat, urine, feces and even breath.  In good conditions, you'd be lucky to last 8 to 10 days without water.

A quick google search turned up all of the information above.  Here's one source:

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000AEAC0-93EC-1DEF-A838809EC588F2D7

[Morgenes]

In regards to the original poster, it appears we were only giving 'You are thirsty' messages when your thirst went down over time.  I've updated the code so that you will get the echos whenever your condition changes.  So now you'll get warnings that you're making yourself thirsty from eating those spicy rolls before you get dehydrated.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[Moofassa]

He eats like a Bynner.


Spicy food'll do that to you.

[X-D]

To answer the questions on earth humans real quick.

On food, how long an earth human can go without is almost totally dependent on what kind of shape they are in to start, IE bodyfat and muscle, then it is dependant on activity levels, temp etc. But, on average, months.

On water, well, under optimum conditions, EI 60 degrees F, 70% humidity, low activity rate and having food, no matter what kind, 30 days or so. Remember, the metabolic processes that turn food (even with zero moisture content) Into energy actually creates some water, for humans I believe it is around 12-17%. This is the reason why, some desert animals on earth can go through life without ever drinking.

Now, without food or water, even under good conditions you are only looking at 3-7 days.

On zalanthas, I don't have a problem with drasticly reduced thirst in citys, and I don't even think of it as something just for playability (even if it is).
But it has been a desert planet for thousands of years, if animals/people have evolved to be able to last even a day in the desert without drinking, then a city is a veritable paradise and the body's water conservation  
-should- work MANY times better.

And, Go Morgenes!

[Rindan]

I am pretty sure that is wrong X-D.  The human metabolism is extremely dependent upon water.  We have no mechanism built for storing it or absorbing it out of the atmosphere.  Everything I have read say that you can go without water for 3-5 days max.  For food on the other hand, you can go a pretty long time, as your body can basically cannibalize itself.  People have been known to go for many weeks without food.

The human body is desperately dependent upon water.  Short of oxygen, there is nothing more important to your metabolism then water.  All of the reactions that keep your body running happen in water with a specific salinity.  Once you start to drop out of the optimal zone you die pretty quickly because the reactions that you need to survive stop occurring.

Hell, you can even run the experiment yourself.  Try going a day without drinking or eating food that has a lot of moisture in it.  See how you feel at the end of the day.  If you really want to mess yourself up you can try going two days without drinking.  By the second day you will be in very bad shape.  Try the same thing with food.  After a day without eating you might feel light headed and like crap, but you will still be fairly functional.  By the second day you will be damn hungry and feel lethargic, but you will still be fine.

I did not look terribly hard, but here is a source I found.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/sep99/937540022.Gb.r.html

As to city thirst rates, I don't like them.  The city is still in a desert with winds that sweep any built up moisture pretty damn fast.  The difference between being in the open sands and in the city is minimal.  Both have no humidity and both are damn hot.  I personally wish that people that lived in cities... you know... actually needed water.  I would much rather have hunger rates dramatically dropped then make it so that my 'nakkie living off of travel cakes can go months longer without drinking then I can.

[Akaramu]

As to city thirst rates, I don't like them.  The city is still in a desert with winds that sweep any built up moisture pretty damn fast.  The difference between being in the open sands and in the city is minimal.  Both have no humidity and both are damn hot.  I personally wish that people that lived in cities... you know... actually needed water.

I like the city thirst rates. I'd rather roleplay and be involved in social interaction than spend 90% of my logged in time struggling to get water just so I can keep playing and doing the same thing again the next day.

[Vesperas]

I am pretty sure that is wrong X-D.  The human metabolism is extremely dependent upon water.  We have no mechanism built for storing it or absorbing it out of the atmosphere.  Everything I have read say that you can go without water for 3-5 days max.  For food on the other hand, you can go a pretty long time, as your body can basically cannibalize itself.  People have been known to go for many weeks without food.

I think he may have been referencing certain chemical processes that do actually create the wonderful H2O as a by-product that our bodies can then use for other crap.  Its true, however, I think, that the water created in the processes goes on to be quickly used up in other crap.

[Rindan]

I like the city thirst rates. I'd rather roleplay and be involved in social interaction than spend 90% of my logged in time struggling to get water just so I can keep playing and doing the same thing again the next day.

If playability is really an issue, I would simply rather reverse the two.  Make it so that people need to eat once a month, but need to drink as often as they need food now.  My issue isn't how much or how little money is being spent on food and water.  My issue is that in a desert world water should be more of a concern then food.  You can tweak food and thirst needs such that people spend the same amount of money, just make it so that if it takes 100 'sid a week to buy food and water, and right now 90 'sid of that is spent on food and the other 10 on water, reverse it.  Make it so that water is the greater concern and that people spend 90% of their food and water budget on water, not food.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would agree with Rindan.

That seems much more realistic.

[LoD]

I don't have a problem with the concept Rindan proposes, that we reverse the focus on food and water within the city to make the actions of its citizens appear a bit more realistic in how a body would demand its resources.  However, I personally feel that the "gritty realism" of managing thirst on a desert planet already exists in the arena within which that struggle would most benefit role play; the wastes of Zalanthas.

What is gained?

I don't mind drinking less within the city-states as a playability issue because it is accessible.  Anyone within the city with a few coins to rub together would be able to find a source of water and purchase it should they become thristy.  If accessibility is not the issue, then what is lacking from the current model besides a perception of realism?  And what more than that would be gained even by swapping the proportions?

Eating vs. Drinking -- Variety of RP

Food has a much broader range of textures, shapes, colors, consistencies, smells, tastes and recipes compared to liquids.  Having food be the more consumed of the two within a city-state, where a lot of RP is found around tavern or dining tables, might also be considered a playability issue.  If one action must be performed more than the other, I would choose the consumption of the resource (food or drink) with the most potential for RP, and the characteristics listed above point me toward food.

Command Arguement: Eat <item> all

Regardless of what changes are made, if any, I would love if a new arguement was added to both the eat/drink command so that we could cut down on some of the spam.  Perhaps you could have a command that would allow you to eat an entire piece of food, or drink the entire contents from a container until satiated rather than having to nibble at them.

Example:

You are hungry.
You are thirsty.

>eat fruit all
You eat a few bites of a kalan fruit, finishing it.

>eat fruit all
You eat a few bites of a kalan fruit, but can only finish half.
You are no longer hungry.

>drink skin all
You drink water from a leather waterskin.
You are no longer thirsty.

I always feel like an idiot watching 25 lines of spam go by as I eat multiple bites from a handful of bread/fruit/steak, etc...

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

LoD has some good points, especially concerning the variety of RP in eating vs. drinking.

And an eat item <all> command would be wonderful.

[X-D]

And now, because of rindan, I have to find my sources. I know, that people have lived more more then 30 days without intake of water or drinking of any kind, but, as I said on my first post (seemingly only skimmed over by some) This is under OPTIMUM(spelled wrong of course) conditions, low temp, low activity and high enough humidity to reduce moisture lost through resperation.

Stay tuned.

Alright, longest recorded I can find is 11 days. It is only thearized that a human could live longer under the right conditions.

[Lazloth]

X-D:  Calling you on your sources!  My limited googling suggests that ideal conditions mean a ~week.

Interesting aside!

What is the longest time something can survive without water?[/url]"]
Not you, you'd be toast in 3 - 4 days.

Camel you say, not even close, they can last about 15 days without water.

The animal that can survive the longest without water is the kangaroo rat and lucky for it since it spends it's life in Death Valley.

A kangaroo rat can go it's entire life of 3 - 5 years without taking a single sip of water.