Crim Code Tweak (new and positive...I swear...)

[SneakerPimp]

So I've been playing a sneaky fellow lately, and getting into some trouble with the law.

I must say, I do like the crim code. Soldier patrols are tough but fair and it's generally fun to stage well thought out crimes and a real rush when you are about to get caught because your escape route went wobbly.

My one pain point is the length of time one remains wanted after executing a crime. It's like wait it out hell. I understand why its needed, , but I was considering a mild change.

What if we cut down the amount of wanted time for committed crime, but instead logged instances of crimes and created a report for militia and Templar PCs.

The report could only be accessed by miltia and would simply be a run down of the crime, where it occured and witness accounts. So like:

> CrimReport

***City Crime Report****

Theif - Templars way - A tall figure in a black hooded cloak - IC/OC Datetime - Escaped

Assault - Caravan's way - The blue-haired, dark eyed elf - IC/OC Datetime - Apprehended

Spice Traffic - Main Gate - The red-haired, light-eyed elf - IC/OC Datetime - Killed


***End City Crime Report****

This would allow militia to patrol high crime areas more often, and let militia investigate and seek out criminals brazen enough to attempt crimes without proper disguise.

What do you think? To be fair, I'd even like this if we left crim-flag timeout times as is.

[Malifaxis]

That sounds very cool.

[Moofassa]

I like it.

I also enjoy that your two, possibly three criminals were elves. Racist.

[Bogre]

I like this. It might stop people from waiting until templars or militia pc's log out to do crimes.

Of course, it might give a too powerful advantage to the militia and templar pc's.

[Anonymous]

So lets say its random..  say its a 65% chance that you'll get a report filed on you.

That would add in the benefit, and depower a bit of the uber-godlike knowledge of templars.

Or, better yet, why not have it depend on the room/area?  0% in the rinth..  0% in the wild.  65% on a street, 85% in the Templar Quarters/Water Temple in Nak/say 20% in alleyways.. etc.

[Sir Diealot]

^--- me.

Also, make the reports.. Or.. certain reports, from certain sections of town.. last in a file somewhere for Templars.  Or on a 'board' like the boards in the taverns.

[Halaster]

Interestingly enough, we've been tossing around an idea similar to this lately.  The idea being that each character has a criminal record associated with them.  Each entry would have something like the crime, the timestamp, and a few other tidbits of information.  Then, when you did something to get yourself a crimflag, each type of crime would have a base amount of time (shorter than the current timers) plus a modifer based on your criminal record.  Given enough time, certain crimes would be removed (i.e. forgotten) from your record (thus the timestamp), but others would not.  The net result would be that someone who's a first-time thief wouldn't spend much time at all in jail.  But each time he gets caught, the longer his stay.

Then, Tiernan went and coded XML support which made this even that much more likely.

So, it's an idea we've had for certain.  It hasn't made it on anyone's to-do list, yet, but maybe one day...

[jmordetsky]

Interestingly enough, we've been tossing around an idea similar to this lately.  The idea being that each character has a criminal record associated with them.  Each entry would have something like the crime, the timestamp, and a few other tidbits of information.  Then, when you did something to get yourself a crimflag, each type of crime would have a base amount of time (shorter than the current timers) plus a modifer based on your criminal record.  Given enough time, certain crimes would be removed (i.e. forgotten) from your record (thus the timestamp), but others would not.  The net result would be that someone who's a first-time thief wouldn't spend much time at all in jail.  But each time he gets caught, the longer his stay.

Then, Tiernan went and coded XML support which made this even that much more likely.

So, it's an idea we've had for certain.  It hasn't made it on anyone's to-do list, yet, but maybe one day...

What about if you don't get caught? (i was the original poster)

Could you add something that would allow the militia to get an idea of high crime areas as well?

[Rindan]

I don't particularly like this idea.  

I think PC criminals already get the shit end of the stick.  As a PC criminal you already need to contend with the fact that the PC militia men have a near perfect memory of your misdeeds and that it is utterly impossible to hide within the city.  It takes a PC militiaman all of 10 seconds to 'patrol' every single center of PC to PC action in Allanak and scan for your sdesc.  It is impossible to "get lost" in Allanak, a city of half a million, without banishing yourself to the 'rinth.  This basically means that the second you are identified as a criminal by either PCs or by the code, you are screwed, as both of them will easily find you within the city with perfect ease and nearly instant results.  Further, the crime code is insanely brutal as it activates the ENTIRE city against you and renders most of your sneaking skills close to useless.  NPC soldiers don't give a damn if your sneaking skills are maxed out and will merrily run into the room and give you an instant beat down.

The decks are already stacked well against the average PC criminal.  PC criminals already have to go to silly and not so IC ends to avoid being caught due to the nature of the code once their crime flag is activated.  

Add to this that in all of my years playing I do not believe I have ever suffered from any criminal activity inside of Allanak proper other then having my apartment robbed.  No pick pockets, no muggings, no threatening of my life, nothing.  The last thing in the world PC criminals need is something else to make their life miserable.

I would much rather see the criminals thrown a bone rather then devising more ways to make their lives miserable.  Fix sneak so that it actually works against NPCs and then maybe it will be time to start devising new ways to make the life of a criminal suck.

[LoD]

The decks are already stacked well against the average PC criminal.  PC criminals already have to go to silly and not so IC ends to avoid being caught due to the nature of the code once their crime flag is activated.

That's because your average PC criminal is usually obvious and stupid.

I have played on both sides of this scenario (militia and thief) and so I have a few comments to make on both sides.  On the pickpocket side, much of being successful is being smart.  Too many would-be thieves are not subtle, patient or professional.  They end up being greedy or impatient and ultimately caught by someone and forever labeled.

I played a pickpocket in Allanak that was never fingered by common day citizens, and that is because I was patient.  I would sit in the taverns and let people become used to me.  Then I'd watch people.  Watch what the ate, what they drank, where they kept their money, where they kept their keys, weapons, everything.

I kept a list of prominent targets and what items I wanted to go after.  When I went after the goods, it would be at a time when I hadn't been sitting around in plain sight for a good long while.  I won't give away all my secrets, but the "pilfer" would take place in a moment and far removed from any suspicion.  If I were successful, which I normally was, they wouldn't realize anything was missing, nor would they have any idea of who it might have been because chances are they didn't even know I existed.

I was eventually brought down by my fellow criminals rather than any law enforcement, of whom I was very unafraid.

Speaking on the side of the militia, I agree that certain areas (i.e. West Gate) are death traps if anyone ever gets crim flagged.  Other areas, however, never cease to amaze me in how open they are to criminal activity and light on consequence.  Several times have the same criminals committed a crime in the City and seemingly escaped to wait out the flag.

I don't feel criminals have it that tough.  I think stupid ones have it tough, and always will.

-LoD

[Rindan]

I don't disagree that it is possible to play a long lived criminal.  I had a criminal live for just under a RL year in Allanak.  In his time he did everything from pick pocketing, fencing stolen goods, spice smuggling, spice selling, information selling to anyone, and just about anything illegal he could get his hands on.  Being smart you can live just about anywhere.  The real issue is that if you are being smart, the range of activities that you can do is drastically limited because the consequences of failure are so high.  The game is an all or nothing sort of game.  Get fingered once in a city of half a million and you are either done for, or finding a new home in the 'rinth.  The criminal plots that go on tend to be the same ones over and over.  They all have a common theme.  They all tend to be non-violent and, other then information selling, utterly harmless.  Certainly there are exceptions, but they are few and rare.

The balance is already tipped way the hell too far over in favor of law enforcement.  They don't need any more tools to destroy the few criminal organizations that scrap by for a few months before getting crushed by fellow criminals or law enforcement.  The criminal element in the game is in absolutely no danger of overrunning or even inconveniencing the rest of the game.  The last thing in the world they need is for a militia that is even better armed.  The militia has every single OOC advantage in the world; they don't need another.  

When criminals are running amuck causing terror on the streets of Allanak then maybe this will make sense.  Until then, if anyone needs a coded bone thrown to them, it is the criminals, not the militia.

[Folker]

To be honest, I dont particularly like the idea mentioned by Halaster. Generally, it attaches crime to a person itself. The idea is fully understandable IF the person is apprehended and the multiplier would be influencing jail times only. But unless I misunderstood, it also affects the 'wanted' flag, and that's where I disagree. I can accept militia's temporary ability to see through face coverings because of necessity, but I wouldnt like an uncought thief to have a record for the crimes he got caught doing in disguise and not apprehended.


Overral I enjoy the original idea by the thread starter. Have a board in shape of an idle sitting scribe that would record the crime's generic location, the mdesc, and the timestamp, in a board like fashion that has ability to "write" (as in ability to "save" the entry permanently) disabled. This way, the records inside the board get erased every week. Militia PCs are welcome to remember the crimes they heard about anyway though. Add in with some automatic vnpc theft to cloud up the issue, and it'd be perfect.

Also, from 'very' short experience as a shady character, avoiding militia PCs is easy, as long as you're a little bit lucky and atleast moderately smart. Unless ofcourse they tag along NPCs that have the benefit of insta action, and insta recognition and by no means plan to roleplay out their encounter with you. But in my experience, they dont do that. Ofcourse, the waiting out the wanted flag part is daunting.

[Ruslan]

I don't mind if VNPC-enforced punishment would be dependant on VNPC-kept knowledge of criminal history.
In fact I like this idea.

But I'd sleep better knowing that PCs have no access to that history. PC templars have advantage over (V)NPC tempars when it comes down to dealing with PC criminals. They are already able and willing to single you out and scan your appearance on the crowded street and recognize your accent in the noisy tavern. And, as if it's not enough, we are going to take a use of their absolute memory, so they will remember all crimes done in the city even when they were not "patrolling".

I am always fascinated with the vast vault of experience that Lod is never greedy to share, but everything he said has nothing to do with the PC realty where you have one PC criminal per every PC templar and militiaman, so you can't exactly blend into thin PC crowd. Thus I agree with Rindan that life of a criminal is hard as it is and I don't believe we should make it even harder.

[Folker]

But I'd sleep better knowing that PCs have no access to that history. PC templars have advantage over (V)NPC tempars when it comes down to dealing with PC criminals. They are already able and willing to single you out and scan your appearance on the crowded street and recognize your accent in the noisy tavern. And, as if it's not enough, we are going to take a use of their absolute memory, so they will remember all crimes done in the city even when they were not "patrolling".

Let's put it this way. Would you be willing to allow this if it meant your wanted flag wore off quicker?

[ale six]

PC militia men have a near perfect memory of your misdeeds and that it is utterly impossible to hide within the city. It takes a PC militiaman all of 10 seconds to 'patrol' every single center of PC to PC action in Allanak and scan for your sdesc. It is impossible to "get lost" in Allanak, a city of half a million, without banishing yourself to the 'rinth.

Get better disguises. And if you know people are looking for you, a smart thief would realize the absolute -last- place he would want to be is a populated tavern that will be often checked by patrols. I can think of about five places in Allanak that a PC could lay low without going into the 'rinth without any effort. Yes, you may not get PC to PC interaction while you're there... but you're on the run and hiding, right? I don't think you can evade the law and expect to hang out with a bunch of PCs while doing it.

Add to this that in all of my years playing I do not believe I have ever suffered from any criminal activity inside of Allanak proper other then having my apartment robbed. No pick pockets, no muggings, no threatening of my life, nothing. The last thing in the world PC criminals need is something else to make their life miserable.

I'm amazed that you haven't, but I don't think this is the norm. In Allanak and Tuluk both I've had to deal with pickpocketing and burglaring quite often. As for mugging, I once had a PC subdued in a populated area of the city and drug down several rooms worth of street to a lawless area by her attacker. No soldiers came by to stop it (which surprised me a great deal.) PC criminals can make the lives of their victims miserable too (again I've been on both ends of this), so I don't know if they're really as helpless and innocent as you claim.

The balance is already tipped way the hell too far over in favor of law enforcement. ... The criminal element in the game is in absolutely no danger of overrunning or even inconveniencing the rest of the game. The last thing in the world they need is for a militia that is even better armed. The militia has every single OOC advantage in the world; they don't need another.

Disagree again. When there's inactive PC law enforcement criminals with decent skills can run amok, and no one else can stop them because the crime code protects criminals too, unless they're wanted right at the specific moment.


In general, Rindan, it seems like you like to take things to extremes in your posts ("absolutely no danger of overrunning the game", "utterly impossible to hide within the city", etc.) While this might make your argument sound stronger, I don't think it's necessarily ever true at all. The crime code could certainly use improvements, but I'm sure there's a middle ground that can be reached rather than only helping out the poor, helpless criminal PCs.

I don't feel criminals have it that tough. I think stupid ones have it tough, and always will.

Bingo.

[LoD]

The balance is already tipped way the hell too far over in favor of law enforcement.  They don't need any more tools to destroy the few criminal organizations that scrap by for a few months before getting crushed by fellow criminals or law enforcement.  The criminal element in the game is in absolutely no danger of overrunning or even inconveniencing the rest of the game.

I agree that the militia has enough tools to do its job.  The crim code puts them at a huge advantage when directly opposing a criminal, domestic, but especially foreign.  I don't agree that the criminal element in the game wouldn't be able to inconvenience the rest of the game should they so choose.  Barring someone whipping out the "big guns" an intelligent and talented group of PC criminals could pose a major problem to any PC militia and even some templars (they CAN die).

Criminals in a world like Zalanthas would probably employ a bit more restraint in the city than seems the case, however.  When stealing would mean losing a hand, talking back to someone powerful meant losing your tongue or your life, someone deciding to commit a crime should either be desperate or skilled.  Anything in between is naturally going to be fed to the beast.

There are some factors that are relevant to the criminial - militia discussion, but would serve as a derail to this thread, so I will leave it here.  I don't think there's a need for more tools on the militia side of things, but I don't know that there's a huge need for allowances on the criminal side either.  There's another direction that RP can go which would help alleviate some of the issues.

-LoD

[mansa]

I think this would promote more PC to PC interaction, rather than PC to NPC interaction.

[jmordetsky]

I think playing a "common" criminal (emphasis on common) can be tough. But that toughness, in my opinion is really only attached to the fact that after you commit a crime you need to seriously hide for days and days. I mean, if you commit assault you are wanted forever. You really do as Rindan said, have to "banish yourself to the rinth". But getting away with crime is really very easy. The only pain point for me is desire to RP and being stuck not being able to because of my 3 game day wanted flag. Committing the crime and getting somewhere safe is not hard if you are a thought out criminal and patiently choose your targets.

To be fair, Allanak is a huge city. I can see being wanted for a little while, but really the time should be cut down unless you are caught repeatedly and are considered a serious threat. I think Hal's idea would be great for this.

However, I still think wanted time should be cut down and offset by something that lets PCs further investigate crimes. The original idea is to allow PCs to investigate and deal with more crime. Cutting down wanted times, but at the same time giving PC militia more ability to look into crimes, creates more PC to PC interaction and while allowing criminals to reintegrate into RP faster. IE, cutting down the "fuck I'm still wanted" idle time.

Right now, the scenario for me as a n00b thief committing a crime is

a) Find a mark
b) Determine the when's and where's
c) Attempt crime
d) Become wanted because of failure, or immediately in the case of assault
e) Hide out
f) Wait

Now, this is cool, I'm having fun, but really if I'm hooded up I should be able to surface somewhere else in the city after a reasonable amount of time. I'd like to be able to hide out less time, but have a better chance of running across real Militia men investigating my crime.

What might be really cool is, depending on your hide or sneak skill having a percent chance of being IDed for the time you are moving through VNPC populated rooms, with your wanted flag on, but reducing the overall amount of time the wanted flag IS on.

So instead of being wanted for lets say 10 hours, you are wanted for 4 hours, but each time you are moving through Allanak, there is a X% of you being IDed and your sdesc and location of crime being reported to the list available to PC Templars. Cloaks and Wraps could help cut that % chance down.

Also, I don't like that I become instantly wanted by NPC Soldiers but I can waltz by PC soldiers who have no idea that I'm wanted. It would be great if as you moved through VNPC populated areas with a wanted flag, (IE made your escape) if there was a % chance based on hide and sneak if messages with your sdesc and general area could be relayed to Militia clans. This would simulate VNPC's relaying your ID to the militia via the way. I justify this with the fact that if you did commit a crime, especially a violent crime, people in streets would be screaming and panicing. The ruckus would spread out eventually someone would contact the militia with the way. As it stands now NPC soldiers get that message via the coded wanted flag, but PCs do not. NPC soldiers just keep rolling along their random paths unless they spot you.

[Rindan]

Get better disguises.

There are no disguises.  You can hide your sdesc and that is it.  You can certainly make an effort to look inconspicuous before committing a crime with the right clothing, but if someone looks at you in the act, they have your mdesc, like it not.  Once you are known, you are known.  Period.  End of story.  There is no coded way to conceal your identity from a guy with access to the look command, ctrl-c, and notepad.

And if you know people are looking for you, a smart thief would realize the absolute -last- place he would want to be is a populated tavern that will be often checked by patrols.

Allanak is a city of half a million.  Finding one guy in one seedy, poorly lit tavern of the hundreds of taverns that exist is damn near impossible.  The only reason why PC militia can do it is because in truth there are only two taverns with PCs in them, only 25 people to search in the entire city, and on a busy day only 5 sdescs to quickly glance over in each tavern.  If you are an elf, you just narrowed it down to about 5 PCs in the entire city online at any one time, and at most one or two other elves in a tavern.

I can think of about five places in Allanak that a PC could lay low without going into the 'rinth without any effort. Yes, you may not get PC to PC interaction while you're there... but you're on the run and hiding, right? I don't think you can evade the law and expect to hang out with a bunch of PCs while doing it.

Sure, you can go hide in Allanak proper, buy why bother?  The only places you can hide are places without PCs.  At that point, you might as well stop wasting your time and wander into the 'rinth and hope for the rare chance to interact, rather then no chance to interact.  Realize though, that this is entirely OOC in nature.  Realistically, it would be trivial to go to a different section of the city and go have a drink and chat merrily while the militia waste their time searching the Gaj and Barrel.  In game though, all the taverns are trivial to check and the few kinda-out-of-the-way taverns are empty of PCs.

I am not saying that anything should be done to change this.  I am saying it is a big ugly strike against anyone wanting to play a criminal.  Interaction with more then the few of 'rinthers is strictly off limits if PC (or NPC for that matter) militia are after you.

Disagree again. When there's inactive PC law enforcement criminals with decent skills can run amok, and no one else can stop them because the crime code protects criminals too, unless they're wanted right at the specific moment.

During the few lulls when there is little PC law enforcement presence the criminals live by the same rules as everyone else.  Anything they can do, any other PC can do.  It is a moot point though because there is usually a PC militia presence, and the proposed change would help PC militia.  When the PC militia are about, they don't need any more help then they have.

In general, Rindan, it seems like you like to take things to extremes in your posts ("absolutely no danger of overrunning the game", "utterly impossible to hide within the city", etc.) While this might make your argument sound stronger, I don't think it's necessarily ever true at all. The crime code could certainly use improvements, but I'm sure there's a middle ground that can be reached rather than only helping out the poor, helpless criminal PCs.

I honestly do not think that anyone in good conscience can really argue that criminals are running amuck.  Outside of apartment theft and information selling, they have very little effect on the PC population.  Even simple stuff like pick pocketing is rare.  Anything involving violence or intimidation from the PC criminal element is even rarer.  PC criminal populations are low and have a very high turn over rate.  Criminal organizations rarely last long periods of time.  Even imm sponsored criminal organizations go through long dry spells with no members.

The last thing in the world that is need is making the life of criminals harder.  Their turn over rate and disorganization is high enough without making it worse.  This will add nothing to the game other then to make cities even more safe and secure, shrink criminal populations further, and induce an even higher turn over rate.  

If something is to be added in terms of law enforcement, it should be fixing the ancient bug in sneak that keeps it from working on aggressive NPCs.  An updated crime code that doesn't employ an 'all or nothing' mentality would also do wonders.  Escape back to the 'rinth after committing a crime should be what most criminals think, not "lets wait around the scene for a few hours" which is currently far more effective for purely coded reasons.  Hell, I would be highly in favor of much longer wanted times if escape options were more realistic.

The reason why criminals tend to turn over at the rate they do is not because PCs that play criminals are stupid and PCs that play militia are smart.  Adding new powers to help militia track down the few remaining criminals is not needed and will not add anything positive to the game.

[ale six]

Realistically, it would be trivial to go to a different section of the city and go have a drink and chat merrily while the militia waste their time searching the Gaj and Barrel.  In game though, all the taverns are trivial to check and the few kinda-out-of-the-way taverns are empty of PCs.

I don't know, drinking somewhere while I know I'm wanted by the law seems kind of stupid. If I'd just killed or mugged or got caught robbing somebody, I sure wouldn't go sit down and have a drink somewhere no matter how far away I was from the scene of the crime. I'd be paranoid and I'd hide.

I honestly do not think that anyone in good conscience can really argue that criminals are running (sic) amuck.  Outside of apartment theft and information selling, they have very little effect on the PC population.  Even simple stuff like pick pocketing is rare.  Anything involving violence or intimidation from the PC criminal element is even rarer.  PC criminal populations are low and have a very high turn over rate.  Criminal organizations rarely last long periods of time.  Even imm sponsored criminal organizations go through long dry spells with no members.

I haven't seen pickpocketing as rare. Apartment theft has a decent effect on the PCs that get looted. Ever had a burglar develop a grudge against you? You may as well just not keep anything in your apartment.

I could go on why I think criminals are well enough off right now, but that's somewhat tangential.

If something is to be added in terms of law enforcement, it should be fixing the ancient bug in sneak that keeps it from working on aggressive NPCs.  An updated crime code that doesn't employ an 'all or nothing' mentality would also do wonders.  Escape back to the 'rinth after committing a crime should be what most criminals think, not "lets wait around the scene for a few hours" which is currently far more effective for purely coded reasons.  Hell, I would be highly in favor of much longer wanted times if escape options were more realistic.

I could agree with that.

The reason why criminals tend to turn over at the rate they do is not because PCs that play criminals are stupid and PCs that play militia are smart.  Adding new powers to help militia track down the few remaining criminals is not needed and will not add anything positive to the game.

Heh. I've seen plenty of smart criminals who were never caught for a long time, but for every one of those there's been about five idiots. I've seen some decent militiamen too, but for every one of those there are plenty of stupid and worthless militia who couldn't catch a criminal if he walked into the jail himself.

I don't think the militia necessarily needs it any easier either, but aside from some things like letting criminals sneak by some soldiers, or making soldiers' response time a bit slower, I don't think criminals are all that bad off.

[Larrath]

I'm siding with Rindan here.

I don't think that every tiny, petty pickpocketing or mugging in Allanak should require the criminal to study their target for five RL days, learn their patterns, scout out the location of the Militia soldiers within a five-mile radius and only then attempt to steal that little obsidian dagger from that elf's belt.  It's ridiculous.
Allanak is a police state, and so is Tuluk.  But these places are also very violent.  People die in Allanak's streets and alleys (due to crime) every day, and I'm not talking about the 'rinth.  Do you really think the Templarate or Militia would care that much if a couple of nobodies got in a fight and one of them whacked the other across the head with a club, or if some elf tried to steal something from some half-elf?
Elves always try to steal something!  The Templarate usually has much bigger fish to fry, and the Militia has been places to go out and look for bribes in.
There's no reason why you can't get away with murder in Allanak (outside the 'rinth) as long as it's nobody the templars care about.

If you want to make the crime code more realistic, I think that the first step should be to make the NPC soldiers take bribes.  That is realism - if you're a nobody and someone else is beating you up and they're richer, you are fucked.  Why should the soldiers give half a damn about whose fault it is?  Remember templars?  There is no justice system in Allanak, there is only very rigid and very lethal order.  No justice, very few laws.

People are completely unafraid of being attacked in Allanak.  If someone is coming at another PC with a drawn obsidian longsword that could cut an arm off in two seconds, the popular reaction is "Yeah, go ahead and try to stab me in the gut, but don't come crying to me when the guards teleport over and kill you".  What the hell?  If you're not wearing some very heavy armor, people coming at you with weapons (or threats of magick) should be very very dangerous.  It only takes half a second to stab you in the heart, liver or throat.

LoD spoke a lot about 'idiot criminals'.  There are basically two groups of these - the twinky pk and spam-steal happy newbies (who need to be discouraged by the code) and the violent, brutal criminals who don't happen to be masterminds.  This last group needs to be supported by the code, and believe me that this will add a LOT to the game.  It will make people more afraid when someone goes berserk in a tavern with weapons or spells, for one.

My advice?  Give NPC soldiers lag when they move across rooms.  If they're running, they should tire out quickly.  It's goddamned trivial for any elf to outrun a human, and the code should reflect this.  A human wearing a heavy obsidian breastplate is not going to ever chase down an elf that runs twice as fast and has agility that would put a cat to shame.
Crime code should be made far less reliable - especially with the Subdue command.  Pulling people into alleys is very realistic and very good.

I think that most Zalanthans would rather stay out of a criminal's way instead of running around and calling for Militia.  That criminal might be in the Guild, or have magicker friends, or come back and kill your family later.  Zalanthans are survivors, and part of this survival comes from minding your own business.

[marko]

I've played a few long lived criminal characters who were very successful.

The crime code is clunky but it isn't over-powering.

When talking about a city of half a million we need to make a few allowances for the PC population.  The PC population is the bit about the population that gets noticed by the other PCs in the population.

Have you ever wondered if the real world was really small?  When you run into an old friend halfway across the world?  Like say, in Jamaica?  I have.  The real world seems to surprisingly small - and when we play our chars in Arm we're dealing with an even smaller reality.

Are there a dozen seedy establishments in 'nak?  Probably.  Does your character frequent them?  No... not when you are playing; the char frequents the ones that the rest of our chars frequents.  That's a playability issue.  Do you want to pretend your char is out at these other ones while you are logged out... sure, whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Talking about getting lost in the city of a half a million is losing track of what characters are.  PC characters are the characters, for whatever reason, get noticed by the other characters.

Let virtual npcs handle virtual npcs.  The city big sure - but we are playing within one sphere of that city.  In real life it is said you know anyone by six degrees of seperation.  In Armageddon that's a little smaller.  That's just how we make allowances for playing a game where people have creative characters that are creating stories.

Threads of stories that weave together to create an interesting and dynamic tapestry that is the on-going story of the world.  

We always need to keep in mind the backdrop of our stories but that is all it is, a backdrop to our characters.  

In terms of overall dynamics of being a criminal - if I were to play a criminal and got caught red handed then managed to escape the law my character would not go to any seedy estabishment that is in any sort of law zone.  That's just playing a stupid criminal.  That reminds me of modern day criminals who do stupid stuff and get tracked down to the local drinking estabilshment.

There are three taverns with PCs in them in Allanak plus an additional two that often have PCs in those as well.

Basically, I'd like to see the criminal tweaked a bit more.  Although, with the mercy-on and nosaves thing life became a lot easier for criminals.  You can survive a few catastrophic failures now when before you couldn't.

In the end, if a criminal plays smart, they can be a criminal and have a very prosperous life.  The hardest thing about being a criminal is starting out - but that is the same as it is with all aspects of the game.

A criminal who gets good will be able to operate even if their description is freely available.  In fact, for many of the top criminals, having that much infamy is a badge of honor.  At one point, I had a criminal character who was blamed for every single theft in one of the cities - whether he did it or not.  Did that stop his operations?  Not at all.  What it did do was open up new opportunities for more lucrative contracts that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Operating like a criminal means operating like a criminal.  Day time attempts are stupid.  Attempts in crowded locations are stupid.  Acting like a basic thug on the road is a sure way to get yourself killed.  Being a criminal isn't about purse snatching and running into the crowd - you can try it but even modern day criminals tend not to get far.  Play a criminal with the elusive sneakiness that they are granted by the various "criminal classes" and you can go far.  I'm assuming by criminal activities we are discussing these criminal classes.  

You can be a great law-breaker as the other classes as well and achieve great great great things.

Is there a need for disguises?  Yeah, I think so, I'd like to see mask / cloak / large pieces of gear slowly begin to eat away at someone's maindesc.  Kinda like the language code - hood up, 25% gibberish in the main desc, hood up, masked - 50% gibberish in the main desc.  But that's a seperate issue.

[Halaster]

Maybe I wasn't very clear, or didn't explain it well (or I'm missing something), but the idea I was talking about would actually benefit the criminal, not harm them.  Crim-flags would be shorter in duration, to start with.  They would only meet current timers and exceed them if you were a repeat offender.

Also, certain crimes would more quickly be wiped off your 'record' than others.  Theft might only be on there for an IC year, but murder might be there for 20 IC years.

The intent for this idea is so that people who aren't caught very often, and are caught for small crimes do not spend as much time in jail as before.

For example, let's suppose that theft currently gives you a 12 IC hour flag.  What I'm suggesting would give you a 3 hour flag + how many times you were previously caught that's still on your record.  If you've been caught stealing 5 times before, then maybe you've got an 8 hour flag.  But if it's your first offense, it's only a 3 hour flag.  (these aren't actual numbers, just examples).

[jmordetsky]

Maybe I wasn't very clear, or didn't explain it well (or I'm missing something), but the idea I was talking about would actually benefit the criminal, not harm them.  Crim-flags would be shorter in duration, to start with.  They would only meet current timers and exceed them if you were a repeat offender.

Also, certain crimes would more quickly be wiped off your 'record' than others.  Theft might only be on there for an IC year, but murder might be there for 20 IC years.

The intent for this idea is so that people who aren't caught very often, and are caught for small crimes do not spend as much time in jail as before.

For example, let's suppose that theft currently gives you a 12 IC hour flag.  What I'm suggesting would give you a 3 hour flag + how many times you were previously caught that's still on your record.  If you've been caught stealing 5 times before, then maybe you've got an 8 hour flag.  But if it's your first offense, it's only a 3 hour flag.  (these aren't actual numbers, just examples).

But if my char was just flagged and not caught, how does the crim code determine if it was him or not? I've always thought that just getting a wanted flag wasn't enough to positively ID someone say by name, but rather off a vague desc that faded from memory and intensity of searc with time.

If I killed someone in the street, and got away once. Would the second time I did VPNCs start saying, "Oh it was that black-haired elf again?" and as a result my timer be longer? Or is my timer only enlongated if I'm actually apprehended?

[marko]

Maybe I wasn't very clear, or didn't explain it well (or I'm missing something), but the idea I was talking about would actually benefit the criminal, not harm them.  

I actually missed out on the original post in the depths of the conversation of being a criminal.

I like this idea.  A lot.

I think it makes sense and eventually could lead up to "rounding up the usual suspects" when needed.

I think it's a good tweak for the criminal system.

[Halaster]

But if my char was just flagged and not caught, how does the crim code determine if it was him or not? I've always thought that just getting a wanted flag wasn't enough to positively ID someone say by name, but rather off a vague desc that faded from memory and intensity of searc with time.

If I killed someone in the street, and got away once. Would the second time I did VPNCs start saying, "Oh it was that black-haired elf again?" and as a result my timer be longer? Or is my timer only enlongated if I'm actually apprehended?

It'd be easy enough to account for the difference of just being flagged versus actually jailed.  Obviously, someone would know something about you since you got flagged in the first place, but I can see it fading much more quickly from your 'record' if you never make it to the jails.

[Folker]

(addition, that post was written before the one above it, but due to a lengthly editing process came after it. My reply towards the post above would be, "oooooh. Nice." once it's properly edited and spellchecked ofcourse)

That's pretty much my thoughts. Once you're apprehended and fully identified, then it's understandable. And if your past misdeeds affect the length of the jailtime, then wonderful. That's probably the best way to go.

But if you were cought in the act, chased, and ... not apprehended. Then the militia is not looking for 'you', they're looking for a criminal that 'looks' like you. It's fine if they're able to identify you and see you through all the hiding/sneaking/disguising. That's fine, but what I dont like is the fact that before even catching you and confirming your identity, they'll know your background and previous misdeeds.

Basically, are templars capable of incriminating you( I assume it's when they incriminate you, do they set the timer for the length of jailtime), when you're not in the room ? If they are able to do it, then yes ... the idea flies. But if they are able to set your jail time only if you're present in the room, even if it ment that you've been dragged to them by the militia, then ... I dont think the idea should work.


As for my thoughts about the whole "PC militia do not need extra tools to help apprehend criminals". My thoughts on this go like this, I'd prefer every pc militia to get an immstyle "go to"/"locate" ability, if it ment that my criminal character were to be apprehended by a PC militia, and not an NPC one. In case of the original poster's idea. Lessening the length of wanted timer reduces the odds that your character will be punished by an NPC that no matter how you try has very little interactivity (especially militia NPC, who could aswell insta kill you, and sometimes do just that), and the feature that records any crimes performed in the city increase the odds of you being punished by a PC militia (extra chance for a roleplaying encounter).

To be honest, having given it some thought, I realized how weak and useless proposed "tool" is. So what if a PC militia finds out that some figure wearing a cloak of such and such colours did some naughty thing. Just keep two cloaks with you, one for the job, the other for public appearences and you're set.

[Rindan]

The intent for this idea is so that people who aren't caught very often, and are caught for small crimes do not spend as much time in jail as before.

If the goal is to tweak how long the crime flag is set for, I am indifferent.

The length of a crime flag really is the least of a criminal's concern.  It is a slight OOC irritation at best.  Generally, when you are crime flagged you are either in a spot where NPCs will never get to you, or they are already dragging your ass down the street towards jail.  The length of time you have to wait out a crime flag is just an OOC irritation at that point.

If you keep going to jail as a criminal, you are already scratching years off your life and asking for a Templar to deal with you permanently / scoop you up in some plot or another.  Either way, you mark yourself to the militia.  For a criminal, the amount of time spent in jail is a trivial punishment compared to most other things, regardless of how long it is.  Getting thrown before a Templar is the real punishment or being known to the militia is what gets your life long self imposed banishment from PC interaction.

If this also gives Templars a list of all your crimes, I would be pretty strongly against it.  It is already too easy for a Templar to start gathering information on criminal activities without handing them a list.  In Allanak in particular, I really doubt that they could even devise a method to check who a criminal is, unless they have a pile of very skilled and literate sketch artist that sits around making detailed drawings of every petty thief that comes in through the door.  

In Tuluk, I could see tattooing criminals with their crimes on their forehead and this making a little more sense.

[Synthesis]

Having played many criminals and a few militia personnel (all in Allanak), I'm going to have to side with Rindan on this one.

It's ridiculously easy for PC militia to round up criminals.  You check the taverns, then check the usual hidey-holes, and eventually, you find 'em.  And once you do, they don't have a chance in hell, even if their crim-flag has worn off.

Consequently, it's about impossible to run a successful criminal and actually -do- criminal things in the city.  Sure, you can smuggle spice and sell information and all of that...but that's pretty namby-pamby crime.  Now, I'll admit that I've actually brutally murdered folks in the streets (right in a tavern, a couple of times) and gotten away with it.  However, once you do, your life will consist of hanging out in the 'rinth, because it doesn't take long for everyone to find out what you did. (Especially so, given the fact that it takes a -long- time to develop the skills necessary for a successful assassination, and during that time, you're going to meet a lot of people who will conveniently remember you later on and spread the rumor around like they've known you personally for years and years).

On a slightly different note, it's also very difficult to run a corrupt militia PC.  I've played under 10-12 different templars, and it's virtually the same with every one:  any hint that you're doing something, and it's your ass.  And again, it's ridiculously easy for them to find out about anything that's not on the up-and-up.

So...some ideas to fix the situation, since simply griping is tacky:

1.  Change the militia PC schedule to reflect that it's a -military- organization.  Have militia PCs on a rotating "duty" schedule where maybe for one month a year they pull police duty.  During the rest of the time, they have nothing to do with it and just train for war, which is what they ought to be doing anyway.  This will force PC victims of crime to find other ways of getting rid of unwanted elements...the possibilities are endless, and much more amusing than contacting Joe Militia and sending him a pickpocket's sdesc over the Way.

2.  Fix the sneak bug such that you can sneak by aggressive NPCs.

3.  Fix the mdesc/sdesc situation.  I honestly have no idea what would be a good fix for this, but just being able to look, copy and paste is way too powerful.

These may not be the best ideas, but it's a start on something that obviously needs to be changed.  Currently, playing a criminal PC is essentially just a fun way to pass some time between serious characters...because expecting anything serious from a life of more than inconsequential crime is just foolhardy under current conditions.

[EvilRoeSlade]

So I've been playing a sneaky fellow lately, and getting into some trouble with the law.

I must say, I do like the crim code. Soldier patrols are tough but fair and it's generally fun to stage well thought out crimes and a real rush when you are about to get caught because your escape route went wobbly.

My one pain point is the length of time one remains wanted after executing a crime. It's like wait it out hell. I understand why its needed, , but I was considering a mild change.

What if we cut down the amount of wanted time for committed crime, but instead logged instances of crimes and created a report for militia and Templar PCs.

The report could only be accessed by miltia and would simply be a run down of the crime, where it occured and witness accounts. So like:

> CrimReport

***City Crime Report****

Theif - Templars way - A tall figure in a black hooded cloak - IC/OC Datetime - Escaped

Assault - Caravan's way - The blue-haired, dark eyed elf - IC/OC Datetime - Apprehended

Spice Traffic - Main Gate - The red-haired, light-eyed elf - IC/OC Datetime - Killed


***End City Crime Report****

This would allow militia to patrol high crime areas more often, and let militia investigate and seek out criminals brazen enough to attempt crimes without proper disguise.

What do you think? To be fair, I'd even like this if we left crim-flag timeout times as is.

First of all, there is no proper disguise.  There is no disguise period.

Second of all, what you are suggesting is to substitute a major annoyance for a major unplayability.  Having to spend two hours doing nothing because you're wanted is a major annoyance.  But if every templar in the game now has your sdesc because you got wanted once, then playing a criminal is nothing more than a joke.

[Maybe42or54]

Saving lives is uncharted territory with Halaster, let's just stand back, smile, and wish him good luck?

Now get to work Hollastar.

[jmordetsky]

First of all, there is no proper disguise.  There is no disguise period.

Second of all, what you are suggesting is to substitute a major annoyance for a major unplayability.  Having to spend two hours doing nothing because you're wanted is a major annoyance.  But if every templar in the game now has your sdesc because you got wanted once, then playing a criminal is nothing more than a joke.

If you wore a cloak or a face wrap, why would they have your sdesc? The example shows two sdescs adn a cloak sdescs.

If you walked into a store, unmasked and put two shots into the clerk, while there were 50 onlookers, the police would get a description of you, a location of the crime and the time.

If you were wearing a mask, they would get a vague description of you in it's place (IE your size, maybe eye color).

To me, unless you kill someone in a tavern all this does is give indicators to the militia as to where they should patrol, and a rundown of blatant crimes which is realistic.

I'm of the opinion that playing a criminal is too easy, save for the OOC annoyance.

[Folker]

I really dont understand the problem. First of all, the recorded crimes feature would simply allow militia and templars to know what they would know already in most cases, provided they were playing during the time. At worst, this feature would discourage pc criminals to wait untill templars/pc militia log off to pull off their crimes, which is a fairly ooc thing to do. And second of all, the proposed feature is so easy to outmanuever it really loses any of it's use. It records your mdesc, which in most cases is already shrouded by a claok. So what are you afraid of? That they'll pull everyone with the same cloak into jail? Even if they actually did that, it's easy enough to fix it by changing your cloaks.